50NL AQ family pot

[Womble]

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $49.25</font>
BB: $55.35
UTG: $19.40
MP: $48.33
CO: $126.65
BTN: $8.26

<font color="black">Reads: </font><font color="blue">Only 30 hands on the non shorty - seems pretty fishy. 50/0/0.3

Confused on flop and turn. Can somone pot their thinking about what to do in different scenarios? e.g. If I check the turn I should call and AI right? If I check the flop do I call/raise etc.

Cheers</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, BTN calls $0.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, BB calls $2.50, MP calls $2.50, CO calls $2.50, BTN calls $2.50

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($15) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $10.00</font>, BB folds, MP calls $10.00, CO folds, BTN calls all-in for $5.26

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($40.26) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players - 1 All-In)
<font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $36.25</font>, MP folds
Uncalled bet of $36.25 returned to Hero

<font color="black">River:</font> ($40.26) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $40.26

[ActionStan]

I think you built yourself too big a pot pre-flop. You're out of position with a marginal hand. Complete the blind and see a flop. You're set up for a family pot. Most of the time you miss entirely and can't c-bet. Often you're going to play top pair out of position in a multiway pot. That just isn't the road to riches.

You doom your-self to being all-in when you lead the flop and get a caller. I think you got lucky (or unlucky if he had 6h8h). I think you probably want to check and maybe check raise.

I also think you probably have to fold the turn if you checked and villain shoved. You're getting 2-1 on 8-15 outs. I think you end up calling off your stack well behind most of the time.

[TheRenaissance]

I think it is fair to assume you have 15 outs on the flop at least some of the time - on average maybe 12. So bet. Turn I dont know. From what little we know villain seems very loose and passive - he might very well call us with a ten. Note that he already called a big bet on a very dangerous looking flop. Villains passive tendencies is good for us though, he will very likely check behind a turn check, or bet too little to deny you odds.

So my advice is to bet flop, check turn and take it from there.

[Atlanta Andrew]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you built yourself too big a pot pre-flop. You're out of position with a marginal hand. Complete the blind and see a flop. You're set up for a family pot. Most of the time you miss entirely and can't c-bet. Often you're going to play top pair out of position in a multiway pot. That just isn't the road to riches.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no...

Hero should absolutely be raising here pre-flop. I actually prefer a raise to $4 since he's OOP and wants to maximize his pre-flop edge, and hopefully get it heads-up.

The rest of the hand looks fine. Hero's fold equity on the turn is good justification to push.

-Andrew

[ActionStan]

I really don't like leading the flop. Here's the problem I see TR. Hero isn't just betting into fishy, he's betting into 4 players with an unmade hand. When the MP folds and CO moves in for $50 more, what are you going to do? It will be $36 to call into ~$85 pot. At this point, you've left yourself in a very bad spot and it is much more likely you are drawing to 7-9 outs than 15. You've set yourself up to be put to a hard decision. A lot of times you are going to end up calling with the wrong odds, sucking out and teaching yourself lots of bad habbits.

I really think Hero wants to sit on his hands a bit and be the one to put in the big raise and get a little fold equity to go with his draw.

[ActionStan]

Andrew,

I respectfully disagree. AQo isn't much of a hand. It is an awful, awful hand out of position multi-way. You will likely save yourself money in the long run if you in fact fold this hand.

Playing big pots out of position just isn't winning NL poker. Money in NL is made in position.

If you throw in a big raise and take down the dead money pre-flop, that's great. I have no problem with that. Getting into any kind of big pot with that hand, even heads up, should not be your goal.

[Atlanta Andrew]

ActionStan,

You seem to be nice so I'll take the time to explain a little more clearly why you should raise pre-flop w/ AQ in a limped pot:

[ QUOTE ]

AQo isn't much of a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?!! So against several limpers, you think that AQ is not a favorite? You are mistaken. AQ is very strong, especially when nobody else has shown any strength. It will almost always have a solid equity advantage in a limped pot.

[ QUOTE ]
It is an awful, awful hand out of position multi-way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree with you only in saying that it is a better heads-up hand then a multi-way hand. This is another argument for raising big...it often gets us in a heads-up pot as opposed to a multi-way one. Still, even if we have several callers, our equity advantage (see above) is still in good shape, and we've already made a theoretical profit by causing our opponents to call a big raise as underdogs.

[ QUOTE ]
You will likely save yourself money in the long run if you in fact fold this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This could only be true if you were an absolutely terrible post-flop player.


[ QUOTE ]
Playing big pots out of position just isn't winning NL poker. Money in NL is made in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, money is made by pushing equity advantages. For example, AQ in a limped pot.

[ QUOTE ]
If you throw in a big raise and take down the dead money pre-flop, that's great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is! And this will be the case more often than not. I'm glad you agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Getting into any kind of big pot with that hand, even heads up, should not be your goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care what position I'm in if a fish is willing to limp and call a big raise when I have AQ. More often than not, I'm going to take the pot down with a c-bet. Then there are the times I hit my A and stack him cause he can't get away from A7 or whatever. Then there are the times I completely wiff, in which case the hand becomes very easy to play.

I'm sorry, man. I'm not trying to be mean here, but I'm 100% sure that you are using a really bad strategy. All the solid, winning players on here will agree with me. Heck, even check out this post: 6 Max fundamentals for SSNL players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=7827947&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post 7827947). There is an example exactly like this hand towards the middle.

Please try to think this one through a little more carefully. Good luck to you.

-Andrew

[BevillTheDevil]

ok Id probably NEVER complete here pf id raise everytime, IMO very nitty to just complete...yes playin with position is the nutz but AQ multihanded sucks and we really wanta thin out the field...post flop im not sure, w/ it being 5 handed i dont think we have 15 clean outs maybe 12??? And i dont think we have much FE bettin here OOP on flop so i might just c/c, with the results up (villian foldin turn) makes your play look correct but honestly IMO tough spot and would be much easyer 2 or 3 handed on flop...im very interested to see what people say about this hand

[ActionStan]

Again, respectfully, I don't buy into everything you are writing. I am fine with attacking weakness. But look at this hand. He ended up all-in and was almost certainly behind the whole way and drew out on the end. His lack of planning got him there. Being out of position got him there. Getting pot-stuck with the worst hand got him there. That just doesn't sound like winning poker to me.

...snip...
Huh?!! So against several limpers, you think that AQ is not a favorite? You are mistaken.
...snip...

I'm not saying you aren't a favorite. But, you aren't a big favorite against anything. AQo just isn't much of a hand and out of position. It's a trap. A big raise with 1 or 2 callers and you set yourself up to have a big part of your stack in the middle when you c-bet. And I'll say it again, it isn't the fish you worry about, it's the cutoff. He's the guy that is going to take the pot away from you. He can put you to the hard decision when the flop come J82 and you c-bet. Are you calling a $20 raise at that point? That's what your setting yourself up for.

...snip....
This could only be true if you were an absolutely terrible post-flop player.
...snip...

I disagree a bit here as well. You are at a natural disadvantage out of position. Unless you are a well above average post flop player (which is, by definition, most players), you just aren't likely to do well in a big pot with this hand over time. If you are a well above average player, be my guest. Otherwise, tread lightly my friend.

...snip...
No, money is made by pushing equity advantages. For example, AQ in a limped pot.
...snip...

Pushing equity advantages is important, for sure. Attacking dead money, great idea. Playing a big pot hand out of position with a starting hand that will generally play better as a small pot hand isn't pressing an equity advantage, it's giving up natural, strucutural advantages. Position is so, so improtant in NL.

...snip...
I don't care what position I'm in if a fish is willing to limp and call a big raise when I have AQ. More often than not, I'm going to take the pot down with a c-bet.
...snip...

If you can get heads up against a fish, then you can play out of position effectively. If you end up heads up with the guy who isn't the fish, floats the flop and takes it away on the turn? Well you just gave away half your stack. Nice work.

In any case, enjoyed the back and forth. Best of luck to you.

[ocdscale]

[ QUOTE ]
But look at this hand. He ended up all-in and was almost certainly behind the whole way and drew out on the end. His lack of planning got him there. Being out of position got him there. Getting pot-stuck with the worst hand got him there. That just doesn't sound like winning poker to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Results orientated clap-trap.
Raising preflop is 100% the right play. If he limped (and still posted the hand), he would have gotten torn to shreds for it.

It's only a family pot only because everyone and their family called his raise (which was too small imo). Again, results orientated clap-trap.

This reeks of "I don't raise KK preflop when a lot of people limp because I just know they'll call and draw out on me."

[rivhawk02]

[ QUOTE ]
But look at this hand. He ended up all-in and was almost certainly behind the whole way and drew out on the end. His lack of planning got him there. Being out of position got him there. Getting pot-stuck with the worst hand got him there. That just doesn't sound like winning poker to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with ocdscale saying that this poster is very results oriented. Only good things can happen with the pre flop raise.

1. Take down dead money
2. get it heads up so that a c-bet takes it down most of the time.
3. If everyone calls hero will hit the flop 1/3 of the time into $15 pot having invested $3 and it will still be profitable

Also im assuming hero isn't c-betting into the board if it didnt look like this (Nut flush draw, two overs) or something with a queen or ace in it because its a family pot and we're likely to push no one off their hand if they're that loose pre-flop. So, if hero doesn't hit, they lose $3 total with all points above making up for that $3 over the long run.

[ActionStan]

...snip...
This reeks of "I don't raise KK preflop when a lot of people limp because I just know they'll call and draw out on me."
...snip...

Please don't take not wanting to engage in a big, multi-way pot with AQo as espousing not raising from the SB. You absolutely want to play your big cards strongly in this case. JJ+, AK, maybe AQs and TT, throw in a big raise.

[ActionStan]

...snip...
I agree with ocdscale saying that this poster is very results oriented. Only good things can happen with the pre flop raise.
...snip...

I think this hand is an example of the bad things that happen when you build big pots out of position. This result was likely very good for the guy. Still, he probably got all of his money in bad. That's looking at the structure of the play, not the results of the hand.

Given where he was, I don't think the hand was played well. Post-flop he put himself in harms way with his lead bet. He put himself in a place where he could be set all-in and have to call off all of his chips with out the advantages of his fold equity.

You build the structure you have to play post flop with your actions pre-flop. Here he decided to build a pot. Given that he built a big pot with his raise, he would be better off checking. If someone behind him where to bet, he could then move in, maximizing the advantages of his hand. He has a big draw. The advantages of big draws are fold equity. Fold equity is not exercised by sizing the pot so that someone can move in and make you call off all you chips from behind. That isn't good planning.

Again, that has nothing to do with the results of this hand and everything to do with the structure set up from the very first bet. The player never allowed the advantages of his hand to come into play even though he probably won a big pot.

Back to the pre-flop raise. I will grant that throwing in a big raise is far, far better than a small one. This really is a hand you would prefer to resolve early, especially since you are in the SB. Many good things can happen when you raise. Sure. Absolutely. Aggressive play is winning play. You should be playing your big hands strongly. Is AQo a big hand? With 100BB behind, not really. If you have 20-30BB behind, then it's a great hand. Make a big bet and look to get in on the flop. If you have 100BB, it just doesn't set up that well especially if you have a loose player that is going to call behind you and drag in a bunch of other callers behind. Me, I aim to play small pots when I don't have natural, structural advantages and big ones when I do.

[ActionStan]

I admit it, I'm not just nitty I'm super nitty in the SB. (Especially in games where people call too much like NL50.)

[ActionStan]

That 6-Max fundementals was a great post. Thanks for recommending it. Well worth the read.

...snip...
First thing I want to mention is position and the button. It is a no brainer to why position is so important in NL. Being last to act simply gives you a world of advantage over your opponents. That is why if you open up pokertracker and a large enough sample size, you will see that the button and CO is the most profitable position to play in.
...snip...

Doh! Postion! As I said, you make money in no limit in position. Apparently he and I are on the same page here.

...snip...
Example:

You are in BB or SB with AK, AQ, JJ. UTG limps, MP limp, button limps. What do you do?

Answer: RAISE THAT [censored] UP. Raise it up to 6-7 even 8x bb depending on players. Take down the pot without even seeing a flop is better than checking and playing a multiway un raised pot.
...snip...

I think this is the core of our disagreement here. I wouldn't put AQo in my re-raise range here and maybe not AQs. I might add TT. Depends on the table. All of the rest of those hands, absolutely. Raise it up. Then again, I'm playing more full ring than 6 max and here we have 4 limpers instead of 2 so the pot is going to build differently.

Notice that we are arguing about the very bottom of his range. The very bottom. You seem to think that it's obvious that we should be raising our monster. Well, we are at the bottom end of good hands and I prefer not to overplay that hand out of position. I am willing to agree that I am more nitty than this guy in the SB. But not by much. I am also looking forward to the structural disadvantages I am going to enjoy if I get two callers. Call me a nit. Call me whatever you want. But, please understand you create a structure to play future bets when you make a bet. That structure forms the basis of NL play given the escalating nature of bets. Saying that this is an obvious raise because your pressing some advantage is closing you eyes to the structure you have created for yourself. I would suggest that you re-read that article and really understand why he is playing the way he is. How he is using position. How he is not giving it up.

[Chomp]

Stan, the great thing about threads like this is that it presents an opportunity to bury one's (poker) ego, step back a moment and really think about the way you've been doing things.

I'd highly, highly recommend you treat this thread in that spirit. Winning an argument is secondary.

Now, I had a 25BI downswing at 50NL not long ago so I am not claiming to be Daddy Bigcheese. I'm just saying if you genuinely open your mind to what Andrew is saying you could take something away from this thread that will change your game and maybe plug a big leak.

A golden opportunity, so don't let it slip.


Cheers.

[tiger_hall]

i dont like the turn bet... you want this player in the hand on the river as you are expecting to make your flush so another person to pay you off...
i would bet about $12 which looks very weak... this is good as u are..

[ActionStan]

Hey Chomp,

Thanks for the feedback. I do think the article is very good. Honestly.

I also think that Andrew and I are arguing at the margins, at least in terms of what to do with AQo out of position.

I am also being honest when I said I enjoyed the back and forth. I think getting things out of threads like these are all about the back and forth.

You are right that my tone was probably too strong towards the end. I think the same could fairly be said of Andrew.

[mikechops]

I'd agree with Stan's comments about being OOP, but I think AQ is just too good a hand not to raise here. I'd usually make it a little more than pot to discourage the multiway spot you find yourself in.

What is the worst hand you would raise up here? IMO AJ is very questionable and AQ is possibly the borderline hand for me.