Hand quiz - the flop donk [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

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wildzer0

05-31-2007, 12:24 PM

The small flop donk is extremely common at uNL, so I decided to post this hand quiz and see what people thought. Assume villains on all hands are loose, somewhat aggressive.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $48.00
BB: $22.90
UTG: $46.50
Hero (CO): $104.50
BTN: $116.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $4.00, BTN folds, SB calls $3.50, BB folds

Flop: ($9) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB bets $4.00, Hero...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $18.65
BB: $106.15
UTG: $49.80
Hero (BTN): $69.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $2.50, Hero...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $54.10
BB: $5.20
UTG: $43.00
Hero (MP): $54.90
CO: $65.85
BTN: $27.80

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $0.50, Hero...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $44.80
BB: $51.80
UTG: $62.25
Hero (BTN): $49.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $3.00, Hero...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $12.80
BB: $160.10
UTG: $128.15
Hero (BTN): $98.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $4.00, SB folds, BB calls $3.00

Flop: ($8.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $5.00, Hero...

mrw8419

05-31-2007, 12:49 PM

Raise

Raise

Raise

Call

Fold

I play these situations very aggressively though.

muddydog

05-31-2007, 01:05 PM

call

fold

call

fold

fold

relativity_x

05-31-2007, 01:10 PM

call, two overs with a 4 flush. Evaulate turn

fold, but's really dependent upon if he can fire without a jack here.

raise him all in with his short stack

tough spot, you're really not going to improve. It's either a raise/fold. I'd lean towards folding.

fold

mrw8419

05-31-2007, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
call

fold

call

fold

fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Your location doesn't match your play.

monkeymaps

05-31-2007, 01:18 PM

1 raise
2.raise 40% fold 40% float 20%
3.I would normaly say put him all in but im starting to rethink these spots donk from shortie is a weak hand somtimes but I think you got looked up by middle pair and such alot so I dont think our FE is all that great here

4. raise

5.fold

muddydog

05-31-2007, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call

fold

call

fold

fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Your location doesn't match your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif I wondered if anyone would notice that!

The reason I play these the way I do is the same guy that donk bets into you is usually the one that will call whatever your raise is because he's a drooler. I've lost a lot of money lately trying to push people off of hands they are too dumb to understand I'm representing that they are beaten. Lately I've been really trying to play smaller pots with smaller hands. I just don't see these hands as ideal raising hands.

wildzer0

05-31-2007, 01:33 PM

FWIW, I agree with mrw8419 on all these hands. I'm not sure if that's optimal. As far as the hand vs. the very short stack, I think putting him all in is fine. He had 6bb on the flop, and the times he's stacking off with complete air and the few times he folds make this ok for me.

pena

05-31-2007, 01:37 PM

raise
fold
fold
fold
fold

tiger_hall

05-31-2007, 01:38 PM

raise
fold
call and evaluate turn...
fold
fold

cuQa

05-31-2007, 01:42 PM

call
call
raise
call
fold

if you always fold to donkbets he will always donk into you.
I watch the donkers and try to figure out what kind of hands they donk but against the random donkfish I like calling more because many call the raise

ssdex

05-31-2007, 01:54 PM

raise smallish 10 or 12
fold --- floating with AQ on flops like this is dangerous
call --- raising is dumb, just call and hope you improve
call --- this is a marginal call- wouldnt blame anyone for folding though... but if he check turn I fire
fold --- pretty easy fold

monkeymaps

05-31-2007, 01:56 PM

to those saying most hands are a call do you have that much succses floating at uNL? cause I have very mixed results . I personly think most of these hands are raise or fold I def float some % of the time but is this your default move and if so why?

ssdex

05-31-2007, 02:04 PM

hand 3 is the only 1 i think its ok to float, and even then you have to be careful on turn and river, hand 4 is not a float but rather a keeping honest call..... and if another 8 comes or an A and he has KQ or something, your getting paid enough to call here sometimes I think.... hand 1 is definately a raise, im not floating there like ever...... hands 2 and 5 are dangerous places to float and to raise so i just think dumping them is ok........ the fold button is your friend sometimes...... no need to spew

derosnec

05-31-2007, 02:07 PM

call

fold

push

raise

fold

bozzer

05-31-2007, 02:19 PM

Good topic...

hand 1 - I think this is mainly A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, a made flush, a set looking to get ai, a bluff based on the fact that a lot of people find these flops scary. Unlike a lot of donks this is a largely 'nuts or nothing' type range and I don't like raising, especially given our draw to the 2nd nuts. Without a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif a raise is ok, but not as likely to succeed as some other donk bet-raises.

hand 2 - this a more typical donk bet spot. It is a 1/2 pot bet, so it's fairly reasonable. villain's range is something like {J9-JA, 77-TT (depending on how aggressive they are), good flush draws (hi ones or with some pair or straight outs)}. Unlike many donk bets MP is unlikely here. If I continue, I usually raise to $9ish, but floating is ok too.

hand 3 - the min bet donk. I give this no credit whatsoever. Rarely it is a big hand looking to get raised, but range is really any pair, any draw. Definately raise.

hand 4 - one of the trickier donks. this is quite read dependent. range could be as wide as {Kx, 55+, 8x, any flush draw, 2p+} or as narrow as {whatever Kx they are calling pf, good flush draws, 2p+}. If I don't have anything and I'm readless I let this go. In this situation I am inclined to call and see what the turn brings, but that's quite a marginal decision too readless (looking for a read on how much he loves MP, smaller PPs and crappy FDs).

hand 5 - the largish donk on the Ahi 2tone flop is pretty much an ace, a set or, suprisingly often, a flush draw on a semi bluff (they think you are likely to be scared of them having an ace). I like raising.

TheRenaissance

05-31-2007, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $48.00
BB: $22.90
UTG: $46.50
Hero (CO): $104.50
BTN: $116.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $4.00, BTN folds, SB calls $3.50, BB folds

Flop: ($9) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB bets $4.00, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
...raises. Villain will fold a lot, and when he doesnt we have a plan B.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $18.65
BB: $106.15
UTG: $49.80
Hero (BTN): $69.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $2.50, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
...raises. Villain thinks we missed, tell him we didnt.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $54.10
BB: $5.20
UTG: $43.00
Hero (MP): $54.90
CO: $65.85
BTN: $27.80

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $0.50, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
...raises. Villain has a draw, asks nicely to see the next card cheaply, we tell him no.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $44.80
BB: $51.80
UTG: $62.25
Hero (BTN): $49.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $3.00, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]
...raises. Villain either has a draw, or a hand like 99-JJ that wants to know if we have the king or not. Of course we do! We always have AK!

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $12.80
BB: $160.10
UTG: $128.15
Hero (BTN): $98.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $4.00, SB folds, BB calls $3.00

Flop: ($8.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $5.00, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

...raises. Again, this is very frequently a hand that wants to know where its at. We should oblige, and tell him he is [censored].

I am sure a lot of people will tell me "spew"/"dont bluff at small stakes", but for me the raise-the-donk is almost as essential and profitable as the cbet. It almost always work! Tread very carefully in multiway pots though - as you would with cbets. And of course, just as there are opponents you should rarely cbet, there are opponents where a raise just isnt a good idea.

But my default setting is raise, raise, raise.

relativity_x

05-31-2007, 02:51 PM

hand 4 is never a call. Why are you calling with second pair? What are you doing to do on the turn? I think it's either a raise to get him to fold or fold yourself, but never a call.

wildzer0

05-31-2007, 02:58 PM

Some really good discussion in this thread. Although I don't raise the last 2, I tend to agree with TheRenaissance that raise-the-donk is a very profitable play at small stakes. I do feel that I spew in some instances though and I'm trying to learn the situations in which raise-the-donk isn't profitable.

In the 1st hand, opinions seem to be pretty evenly split, and I tend to raise there. Against a fairly laggy player, isn't Qx a reasonable part of their range? Which, barring AdQ, we have a lot of equity against.

mrw8419

05-31-2007, 03:05 PM

Even if directly raising isn't hugely plus ev or marginal ev I find that opponents stack off soooo much lighter to me after I've raised they're donk bets that the meta game is very ev++++.

I'm also amazed at the amount of people who just fold or call, this is 6 max no one ever has anything. I think calling is even spewier than raising in any of these spots. You don't improve often enough, and raising the flop looks way stronger than him checking the turn and you betting.

Antinome

05-31-2007, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $48.00
BB: $22.90
UTG: $46.50
Hero (CO): $104.50
BTN: $116.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $4.00, BTN folds, SB calls $3.50, BB folds

Flop: ($9) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB bets $4.00, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

As this is Ad a lot, and he's going nowhere, I call to blow him off on non diamond turn when his equity drops. Bonus- looks like I'm slowplaying a flopped flush and waking up on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $18.65
BB: $106.15
UTG: $49.80
Hero (BTN): $69.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $2.50, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

He has the flush draw, a weakish jack, 77-99, I'm not blowing him off those hands often enough to raise. Fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $54.10
BB: $5.20
UTG: $43.00
Hero (MP): $54.90
CO: $65.85
BTN: $27.80

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $0.50, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so weak that a solid raise is in order no matter what we have.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $44.80
BB: $51.80
UTG: $62.25
Hero (BTN): $49.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.00, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $3.00, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

Floats one off. We'll see on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $12.80
BB: $160.10
UTG: $128.15
Hero (BTN): $98.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 Players)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $4.00, SB folds, BB calls $3.00

Flop: ($8.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
BB bets $5.00, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quitting with third pair. Second pair.... maybe I fight back some. Fold.

I should note that I 2/3 to PSB donkbet constantly. I want people to get frustrated and start reraising with 1 pair hands/air That they can't call pushes with. It makes my combo draws that much more profitable. The raise all donkbets line slows me down quite a bit, but if I see you do it every time you can be sure I'll start 3bai hands as bad as second pair.

TheRenaissance

05-31-2007, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...and I'm trying to learn the situations in which raise-the-donk isn't profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming a HU pot this comes down to reads IMO. For instance, I've noticed that some opponents hit the 'bet pot' button when they actually have top pair or whatever.

Lego05

05-31-2007, 04:32 PM

Stats would be helpful. I'm less likely to raise a donk from a TAG or someone who seems to know what they're doing. But:

1.) Call - See if you can hit the flush or a pair.

2.) Fold - I'd generally fold to the bigger donk, like more than 1/2 pot, it usually seems more likely to be a hand to me.

3.) Raise - I've started raising to like exactly what is i pot so I'd raise to 4.75 (I might just make it 5). So he has to fold 50% of the time for it to be breakeven immediately. IMO they fold way more than 50%.

4.) Fold - Bigger bet = higher chance of real hand IMO. Actually with the 8 here though maybe you could peel and see what happens on turn.

5.) Fold.

Gustav

05-31-2007, 05:20 PM

Raise
Fold
Cbet
Call
Fold

Waingro

05-31-2007, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise
Fold
Cbet
Call
Fold

[/ QUOTE ]

members_only

05-31-2007, 06:29 PM

raise raise call call fold. reason for calls being that w/ A8 you have some kind of current equity (don't know if there's a better expression than that) and in the second case that when people literally min-donk bet you they'll quite often call if you raise it up but he's giving you too good odds to fold

bozzer

06-01-2007, 06:44 AM

no love for raising it up on the A hi flop? I wish I could look at all the times I've done that in this situation.. I feel like it's money.

TheRenaissance

06-01-2007, 07:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
no love for raising it up on the A hi flop? I wish I could look at all the times I've done that in this situation.. I feel like it's money.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is money.

Romanis

06-01-2007, 09:25 AM

Hope it's OK if I add another example (although it's full ring)
Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $8.75
BB: $9.36
UTG: $19.00
UTG+1: $36.20
MP1: $7.05
MP2: $8.25
Hero (MP3): $50.00
CO: $39.95
BTN: $49.45

Preflop: Hero is dealt 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (9 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.00, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50, UTG+1 calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.25) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.00

bozzer

06-01-2007, 09:39 AM

insta fold in FR. AMIRITE?

TheRenaissance

06-01-2007, 09:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hope it's OK if I add another example (although it's full ring)
Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $8.75
BB: $9.36
UTG: $19.00
UTG+1: $36.20
MP1: $7.05
MP2: $8.25
Hero (MP3): $50.00
CO: $39.95
BTN: $49.45

Preflop: Hero is dealt 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (9 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.00, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50, UTG+1 calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.25) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.00

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the first example where I would NOT raise. Though UTG+1 is probably drawing, he could also have a weak ace. If he does have a fdraw - something like 7c8c - then we are behind as well, equity-wise. Also, we have yet to see what BB is up to.

I'd just call here for this great price and see what happens.

TheRenaissance

06-01-2007, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
insta fold in FR. AMIRITE?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. Say you call, BB folds, turn is a blank (red 2), UTG+1 bets 1$ again.
I'd raise him now.

(this is the 'delayed-raise-the-donk', a rare line but should be part of any micro-pro's arsenal)