NL25: Sucks playing one pair out of position

[Emperor Norton]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($51.25)
CO ($34.05)
Button ($24.50)
SB ($13.10)
Hero ($33.95)
UTG ($16.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $1.25</font>, Hero calls $1.25.

Turn: ($4.60) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $2.5</font>, Hero calls $2.50.

River: ($9.60) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $29.3</font>, Hero folds.

This hand really felt wrong to me. Preflop, I often just fold, because I don't like to play big cards out of position, but here I called. On the flop, in the absence of a flush draw, I feel that I'm either way ahead or way behind, so there's no need to lead or checkraise. The turn is pretty much a blank, so I felt OK about letting him fire at me again, and he obliges. On the river I wanted to make a smallish bet (although I meant to be half pot and misclicked) that he might feel compelled to call with small aces and maybe queens. Obviously, though, when he raises I'm dead.

Thoughts?

[vixticator]

If you aren't taking the lead on the flop you might as well c/c river cuz who knows what he has.

[homeslice]

PF: fold or 3bet. Calling w/ AJo OOP sux...

As played, I would just c/c the river.

[shyturtle27]

The call is okay preflop. Flop is tricky. If you're gonna call then don't check the turn with TP. I'd raise flop to see where I am and see what happens. As played the river is and easy fold to the raise ofcourse, but I don't know about the lead after his turn bet.

[Goodnews]

check and call the river.

look at his bet sizes in the previous streets, he was probably going to bet 4 or 5 on the river, costing you less than it did the way you played it (total cost = cost of call - probability your hand is good*pot).

fwiw, I think villain had A6.

also 3-bet this pf, it gives you a far better idea of where you are at postflop and cuts his positional edge in future streets, as well as adding in doubt as to whether or not attempt a steal in CO.

[homeslice]

[ QUOTE ]
The call is okay preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that call okay?

[Goodnews]

[ QUOTE ]
The call is okay preflop. Flop is tricky. If you're gonna call then don't check the turn with TP. I'd raise flop to see where I am and see what happens. As played the river is and easy fold to the raise ofcourse, but I don't know about the lead after his turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

pf call is only ok if you have been cold calling with big hands in the blinds. otherwise, there is no possibly strategy OP could be playing that this pf call balances out.

a c/r on this flop sucks, you fold out a ton of worse hands and get calls and raises from better hands. a flop bet is ok also, but you will have to determine how tricky your opponent is, you are also easily susceptible to getting pot control stolen from you through a myriad of plays.

[Angrymoog]

I don't think the river lead is that bad based on how the hand was played, but obv it should be for slightly more. Reasoning is that there are some hands we beat that villain may call a value bet with. Villain is raising hands that crush us.

the alternative is c/c, where villain checks behind the pp's we beat and the weaker aces/queens, but bets everything that beats us, compelling us to call a bet where were almost always a dog (except when villain has air)

So to pick between the two options we have to decide if villains range is more likely to include weak made hands that can call a river blocker, or if it is air heavy.

[Emperor Norton]

[ QUOTE ]

pf call is only ok if you have been cold calling with big hands in the blinds. otherwise, there is no possibly strategy OP could be playing that this pf call balances out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean by this, could you clarify?

[wildzer0]

Playing one pair out of position especially sucks when you could have avoided it. 3bet or fold preflop. You don't list any stats/reads on your opponent so I'll assume it's an unknown. I like to have a decent understanding of my opponent before I play a marginal hand oop in a 3bet pot, so I'd usually fold here. As played, C/C, C/C, small donk is about the worst line you could have taken.

[Emperor Norton]

It's substantially less helpful when you don't explain why.

[wildzer0]

[ QUOTE ]
It's substantially less helpful when you don't explain why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretend you're villain in this hand. What do you usually see when an unknown takes the line you did? A marginal one pair hand that he sort of hopes is good. You never fold a better hand, and if villain knows enough about you to know that you're capable of folding, he may raise here with a worse hand.

[Angrymoog]

We dont bet the river to fold better hands here.

[wildzer0]

Yes, I realize that, but this is a really bad spot to do something like this given prior action. I wouldn't have played the hand the same was as OP, but if I did, I'd c/c or c/f the river depending on the opponent.

[shyturtle27]

I didn't say it was great. It's okay. Better to fold against an unknown, but given the raise was from LP then I think I would see if I could flop something and get aggressive on the flop or turn unlike how this hand was played.

[Emperor Norton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's substantially less helpful when you don't explain why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretend you're villain in this hand. What do you usually see when an unknown takes the line you did? A marginal one pair hand that he sort of hopes is good. You never fold a better hand, and if villain knows enough about you to know that you're capable of folding, he may raise here with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

But neither one of these is a serious concern in the context of this hand. Obviously, I never fold out a better hand, but that's not what I'm trying to achieve; I'm trying to extract value out of his marginal one-pair hands, the ones he'd check behind with on the river. I suspect that against an unknown in this spot, most of his range consists of either air or those marginal hands. And suffice it to say that the prospect of a bluff-raise in these games doesn't keep me up at nights.

[Paul Thomson]

I think alot of advice in this thread sucks balls.

PREFLOP Why is 3-betting any good? What kind of hands call are 3-bet...let me help you out, the ones that have us dominated (at least be suited for god's sake...and i'm not joking). I'd rather 3-bet here all day with 87s than AJo. 3-betting preflop gets worse hands to fold and better hands to call almost exactly (given avg 3-bet calling ranges...i'm guessing what those ranges are a little bit at this level). So if 3-betting sucks balls or at least should be reserved for more appropriate hands, what are our other options.

Folding is 0 EV...which actually might be better than 3-betting depending on opponent.

Calling... our hand is almost definitly above the average CO opening range. However, there are a couple of other factors prevalent. The stacks are a deeper than usualy but not deep-deep and AJo doesn't win big pots like AJs can, so we'll have to probably try and play pot control if we hit to extract money properly. Which is the problem that people have been alluding to, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to use pot control oop. However, if you play well post flop, I think this hand is +EV to play oop against a CO opening. So what does play well post flop mean?

It means check-raising alot of flops where u have two overs and it's likely that the flop missed both u and the villain. It means playing 2-pair fast and getting the money in. It means stealling some monotone flops or flops with a pair on board. And it also means...

Playing the hand the way you did when you make top pair weak kicker. I think your flop and turn play were perfect and I think your river play was also good.

RIVER:
I think that given the way the Villain bet that the river was a good blocking bet for value as well as I believed that since you played it very passive on both streets that a smart Villain could read your hand for exactly what it is and try and bluff you off your hand, so the blocking bet kept him from doing it (unless of course he saw it for exactly what it was). Your bet size should probably be slightly bigger, though. But either way, it's a fine alternative on the river to check-calling or check-folding.

[wildzer0]

I'll admit my advice in this thread sucks balls, it's late and I'm not making my point well. I still think the river bet sucks against a thinking opponent, but I guess if it's a typical 25nl player, we can assume he's not a thinking opponent. Nice post Paul

[Lurker.]

i hate blocking this river...probably c/f..maybe c/c

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll admit my advice in this thread sucks balls, it's late and I'm not making my point well. I still think the river bet sucks against a thinking opponent, but I guess if it's a typical 25nl player, we can assume he's not a thinking opponent. Nice post Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

whatever... the river is pretty marginal either way between blocking bet and check-call probably. The thing is you're right. The villain on the river isn't going to read hands well. He's probably not smart enough to realize that given the way the Hero played the hand that he's super weak and that if he needs to he can triple barrell him off his hand (although he shouldn't be double barrelling in the first place given flop texture!). And you kind of need a thinking opponent to make a blocking bet that's the whole point.

HOWEVER, a blocking bet can also be a good choice if it's used as a value bet / blocking bet. So the question becomes how often does the Villain bet worse hands for us on the river...? Since the board is pretty dry (no draws), he won't bluff them and it's unlikely he's going to bet middle pair or a weak ace for value, he'll likely check them behind. however, he might call them if we make a small river lead, since it'll seem unusual and he'll still have showdown value. Obviously, he'll also raise us with better hands but we have more than enough room with our stack sizes to get away.

(this play works alot better at this level, as you move up higher like nl600 and up, villain's will make a blocking bet on the river to induce a bluff from the villain...just warning all you guys as you scream up to the higher stakes)

[Goodnews]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

pf call is only ok if you have been cold calling with big hands in the blinds. otherwise, there is no possibly strategy OP could be playing that this pf call balances out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what you mean by this, could you clarify?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming OP wants to mix up his play for deception purposes. There is no strategy (and by strategy I mean style) that is optimized by cold calling. For example, if hero always calls in this spot with marginal hands, and only raises with strong hands and always folds bad hands then his play is easily read. I am more apt to raise him with anything slightly above marginal. If hero was calling always calling with marginal hands, but calls 10% of the time with strong hands, this instantly makes him a more difficult opponent to play against. Mixing it up even further will deter me moreso from making a blind steal.

In Paul's reply a few posts down explains that 3 betting may be wrong, but I disagree, steals are common at these stakes (I am also guilty of stealing with any two as soon as I find the blinds do not defend without a strong hand), and stopping them is +ev, usually realized through 'blind special' hands.

[Goodnews]

[ QUOTE ]
villain's will make a blocking bet on the river to induce a bluff from the villain...

[/ QUOTE ]

i know its late... but huh?

[Paul Thomson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
villain's will make a blocking bet on the river to induce a bluff from the villain...

[/ QUOTE ]

i know its late... but huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...i'm saying that the player oop will make a blocking bet on the river to induce a BLUFF raise from their opponent who is in position.

sorry about the original statement sounding dumb.