Is this a bad leak or would it work out over time?

[skelm]

I seem to hate folding the river. I play TAG and figure that if my hand is good enough to see the turn then I shouldn't really fold to a river bet. The problem here is if the river comes down with a fourth heart (or some other suit) and I'm only holding TPTK then should I fold or would it be +EV in the long run to still call one more be?

I figure that in the long run it's better to call the extra bet but would love other peoples opinions on this.

[tyler_cracker]

for me, this is one of the trickier spots in LHE. as such, there are no easy answers ("yes, always call one more with TPTK.").

poke through the digests and the archives for hands with river decisions and study them. re-read the river sections and quizzes in SSHE. take comfort in the fact that the river is tricky for everyone.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to hate folding the river. I play TAG and figure that if my hand is good enough to see the turn then I shouldn't really fold to a river bet. The problem here is if the river comes down with a fourth heart (or some other suit) and I'm only holding TPTK then should I fold or would it be +EV in the long run to still call one more be?

I figure that in the long run it's better to call the extra bet but would love other peoples opinions on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm probably ahead making this call online, live probably behind.

[UsuallyDonating]

Definately depends on how the hand goes down. if flop is xxx suited and they lead, u raise, and they call then they may have mid pair and draw. If they reraise they may TPTK,made flush, or 2 pair. I guess im on the fence on this one cause it kinda depends on how the hand goes down. i like tylers response. study and apply. gg

[mwette]

Guess what you think the odds of the other hand are
and use the pot size to decide. If you think there
is a 4/5 chance that the other guy has you beat, then
you call if you are getting better than 4/1 pot odds.

[Little_blue]

Try putting your opponents on hands, TAG make the ranges a little tighter. Then give yourself reasons why you called, he could have had this hand this much ect. Reveiw the calls later and see if your assumption made sence. (of course if our like me you have to prove how smart you are and call just to see that you had his hand exactly)

[SeaEagle]

As poeple point out, there's no easy answer.

Not folding the river often enough can be a pretty big leak. I would guess I make most of my money value betting people who just won't let their hand go regardless of how coordinated the board becomes.

On the other hand, folding the river too often can be a bigger leak because you're giving up the whole pot. And this one's more insidious - you know when you call a river and your opponent shows a better hand; you don't know when you fold a better hand unless the pot is multiway and goes to showdown.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
Guess what you think the odds of the other hand are
and use the pot size to decide. If you think there
is a 4/5 chance that the other guy has you beat, then
you call if you are getting better than 4/1 pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's limit so you are always going to be getting at least 4/1 on the river.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
As poeple point out, there's no easy answer.

Not folding the river often enough can be a pretty big leak. I would guess I make most of my money value betting people who just won't let their hand go regardless of how coordinated the board becomes.

On the other hand, folding the river too often can be a bigger leak because you're giving up the whole pot. And this one's more insidious - you know when you call a river and your opponent shows a better hand; you don't know when you fold a better hand unless the pot is multiway and goes to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. I play almost exclusively live and NL but making that final call on a flushed or connected board in limit has always been one of the worst parts of my game. In NL I am definitely a winner overall when making those calls but in limit I am assuredly a loser overall. I know that I'm making a crying call but what can I do? The times when I've bailed out my opp has smirked and turned over the busted flush. The times I've called he's turned over the nuts. Reviewing the betting and putting him on hand can be difficult to do unless I've played with him for a long time.

[fishyak]

Two thoughts:

1) Reverse psychology. How often would you bet into the guy knowing he probably has TPTK WITHOUT having the goods? Bet you wouldn't do that more than 1 in 10 times multi-way. Probably far less. So 1 to 4 isn't good enough odds. You might be more aggressive h/u. So I would be much more prone to let it go multiway or OOP with players behind me.

2) H/u, particularly early in a live session, call down. Repeats would be easier to fold because you have established a willingness to call down.

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

I don't know the quote exactly, but it is something like when you call a river bet and lose you lose 1 bet and when you fold to a river bet you lose the whole pot. Of course this concept changes when you are up against more than 1 other player and there has been aggressive play on earlier streets, but then again if the pot is big enough you should call it down even if you are nearly drawing dead. SSHE talks about the very thing you are wondering about.

I guess the bottem line is that if the pot is big enough and you are last to act against a single bet you should probably call it.