50NL; 3way pot; Pair + OESD raised on flop by 2nd pre-flop caller

[Lego05]

CO is 18.81/14.85/2.6 over 101 hands.

What do you do here and what's the plan for the rest of the hand?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($49.75)
Button ($24.20)
Hero ($103.55)
BB ($42.65)
UTG ($64.05)
MP ($74.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $2</font>, CO calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $1.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($6.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero bets $4</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $13</font>, Hero ???

[orange]

well, leading into the PFR without a plan of action doesnt seem too bright.

anyways, i would usually 3-bet here. just shove. though you could think about alternate flop plans, ie. c/r-ing/cc-ing/bet/3-betting/etc.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
well, leading into the PFR without a plan of action doesnt seem too bright.

anyways, i would usually 3-bet here. just shove. though you could think about alternate flop plans, ie. c/r-ing/cc-ing/bet/3-betting/etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Orange, I would shove over the pre-flop raiser. Thing is the guy who raised me is a pre-flop caller with TAG stats. Change anything?

[Emperor Norton]

Against a TAG, this seems like it has to be either a set or 99/88, no? Maybe a ragged two pair? You're obviously not doing very well against his range, so the choice is between peeling one off and just bailing here. Since your straight will be pretty transparent if it hits, I don't think you have the implied odds to call. So I think just let it go.

[orange]

ahh, i missed that the first time.

well, your pretty much drawing to just straight outs from here. i think you see a set/2p here almost always. i would call and c/f ui.

[Angrymoog]

I think a C/R could be ideal here on the flop. The lead is fine but I think you have to plan a 3 bet if you lead and get raised.

[Emperor Norton]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a C/R could be ideal here on the flop. The lead is fine but I think you have to plan a 3 bet if you lead and get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why you "have" to plan a three-bet. Maybe against the PFR, but when a tight player surprises us with a substantial raise in this spot, it's time to slow down and reevaluate our hand strength.

[Angrymoog]

If you don't plan a 3bet when raised on the flop, isn't a flop c/r more profitable?

Edit: let me say i totally misread this hand. I didn't pay close attention and thought the pot was headsup. Basically nullifies my validity.

[Goodnews]

well you are definitely behind and villain knows that.

your straight outs are pretty transparent and I doubt you are going to get any money in if you connect (possibly with a turn check/call and a small river donk), if you can't give him credit for the ability to raise here with air (essentially playing a 2nd level game; he knows you know he probably didn't connect), then fold. If he is capable of playing a metagame then call and re-evaluate on the turn, folding UI, and check/calling if you do connect a straight or 7.

[dmoney]

Can we discuss the merits of lead folding this flop???

i would probably c/c flop and lead practically any turn for like 1/2 pot and fold to shove if i hadn't improved.

[wildzer0]

I would call the flop raise planning on folding the turn if you don't hit your straight.

[Goodnews]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we discuss the merits of lead folding this flop???

i would probably c/c flop and lead practically any turn for like 1/2 pot and fold to shove if i hadn't improved.

[/ QUOTE ]

really read dependant, we can pretty much agree that villain will cbet here, the question is how often are we ahead if we donk the flop and villain raises.

my question is, why would you donk the turn? I don't see what that accomplishes, do you believe villain will only raise with a better hand? if so is it not better to let him fire a 2nd barrel (or c/r)?

[dmoney]

It's called a blocking bet, u prefer to see the river and if possible show down cause u do have showdown value, if u lead the turn, it can a) make him fold b) confuse him enough that even if u are behind he calls instead of raising, and c) it does not commit u to the hand if he raises, and i think he is rarely raising there if he has a worse hand. (this 1/2 pot bet helps to keep the pot smaller.

d) it prevents him from getting a free card with overs. he is 99% of the time cbetting here so obv we want to at least call. quite often he will give up with 2 overs on the turn which gives him a free card which we would prefer not to do with such a vulnerable hand.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
It's called a blocking bet, u prefer to see the river and if possible show down cause u do have showdown value, if u lead the turn, it can a) make him fold b) confuse him enough that even if u are behind he calls instead of raising, and c) it does not commit u to the hand if he raises, and i think he is rarely raising there if he has a worse hand. (this 1/2 pot bet helps to keep the pot smaller.

d) it prevents him from getting a free card with overs. he is 99% of the time cbetting here so obv we want to at least call. quite often he will give up with 2 overs on the turn which gives him a free card which we would prefer not to do with such a vulnerable hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is soo bad agianst a good player.


I donk realy like a flop c/r here either I like the lead call the raise c/f turn if you dont improve IMO

[dmoney]

What is ur purpose in calling the raise? what card improves ur hand that allows u to get paid off.

is he stacking with an overpair when a 4 straight comes? and what happens when u make 2 pair and he keeps showing aggression on a 4 straight board, u pretty much in a horrible spot, and like i said when u make ur hand ur rarely getting paid off vs a decent player.

[monkeymaps]

so why not just c/f with your agument ?(which i think is ok) blocking bet gets raised a large % of the time by a good oponent and we have to fold so its just spew IMO. why would you want to continue to draw even if we set the price if your not going to get paid off and have little FE?

IMO we have little to no show down value here. I call flop raise because we have odds to draw and can assume we will get some action if we hi given flop action.

also this isnt a c-bet villian was not the preflop raiser.

[dmoney]

Oh [censored], i completely missed that it wasnt PFR haha. that does change alot of things,

given that, i think it's even more likely we are crushed here, and think the lead fold is probably the safest play.

next plan of action would be to 3 bet shove flop if i wasn't in a particularly folding mood.

the above seem better because it helps to define ur opponents hands much better.

if u check flop and mp checks, PFR c bets, now u have someon e left to act behind you still which is a [censored] spot. if u raise and he shoves u stuck alot of money in there for on good reason, if u call and he raises u again have to muck.

leading seems best, with intentions of folding or 3 bet shoving depending on the actions of opps.