a good handreading exercise

[terp]

hi guys, just wanted to introduce myself briefly before posting this. i play 100nl and up currently so i don't venture into this forum too much but as i started at these levels and try to give back to people who play the ones i do, i thought i'd start contributing here, at least a bit, as well.

this is a hand a friend played on party poker. he was discussing this with me and i think it's a good handreading exercise and has interesting decisions on two streets.

some important information: hero plays a very tight preflop game, like 16/13 or so, but plays aggressively postflop. he is a good handreader, but villain might not know this. several hands earlier, hero made a small 4b bluff with JTo and got called by the reraiser (same opponent as this hand). the flop got checked through, the turn was a ten and the opponent led and hero folded. opponent is 25/18 btw.

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $198.00</font>
BB: $385.65
UTG: $222.95
MP: $130.80
CO: $344.25
BTN: $407.21

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
4 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.00</font>, BB calls $6.00

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($16) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $13.00</font>, BB calls $13.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($42) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)

[orange]

PF: villan can have a wide range given your history and image. I would say his range is scs/suited aces/suited gappers/pps/broadway cards like KJo/etc. so in otherwords, very wide. I think he still RR-es AA/KK/AK/AQ/etc though.

flop: again, that flop hit him pretty hard. Alot of those hands he's cc-ing with PF have most likely hit a piece here. I would still bet for value and protection however. Sometimes checking is a decent play vs. an aggro opponent, but just know you'll be committed to calling a few streets at least if you play it that way. after he cold calls the flop, i would put his range at something like either a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif draw/89/Qx/sometimes complete air or sometimes a weak marginal pair like A7 or something like that. I would think he raises a set almost always, and also raises 2pair. i think that the majority of his range are either draws or complete air.

Turn: i would typically check and call a bet and see a river. usually c/f-ing most rivers, c/c-ing others. i think that he has air or a weak pair most of the time, sometimes a draw. i would c/c up to something like $30 and decide on the river (ie. if its a 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif) if i'm calling or not. if its a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif im almost always c/f-ing. and a T/5 arent great cards either.

so, in summarization, i think you played it fine if you c/c the turn.

[Worm75]

Orange, you are supposed to be letting us do the work here, you pretty much nailed the analysis part here. LOL

Don't have much more to add I would guess, especially since Orange hit on the fact that he probably has a pretty wide calling range from the BB vs the Hero.

As played, c/c the turn and c/c reasonable river bet provided its not a diamond or card 10+

[terp]

lol orange wtf gtfo of here.

here is what happened, in reality.

now give me a river plan as long as you're not a moderazn. also please discuss ranges. both what we think villain has and what villain might think hero has AND what expects the other to do with what and how the other might respond to certain actions.

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $198.00</font>
BB: $385.65
UTG: $222.95
MP: $130.80
CO: $344.25
BTN: $407.21

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
4 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.00</font>, BB calls $6.00

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($16) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $13.00</font>, BB calls $13.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($42) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets $25.00</font>, Hero calls $25.00

<font color="black">River:</font> ($92) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)

[derosnec]

b/f turn. i'd expect a queen to raise the flop for protection/value.

as far as range, there a gazillion queen combos (which i weight less after his flop call), some stubborn PPs if he is the floaty type, various diamond draws, and a fair number of straight draws (i'm not worried about 85 much). there are way more 89/T9/flushy combos than sets/JJ/TT.

so i think you're still ahead here and would bet because i think it leaves you with an easier decision than check. checking induces bets a large % of the time on turn (ime) and so then you might fold (perhaps) incorrectly or you might call and then fold to river bet (perhaps incorrectly).

but if you bet turn, you pick up a lot, rather than folding incorrectly alot.

is my logic twisted? christ, am i still a fish?

[orange]

river isnt such a great one. hands that floated the flop with a weak marginal pair like 7x hit that river. i think that 6x/7x are a larger part of his range, and i think he often checks behind with hands like 99/Qx for 'pot control'.

anyways, i would still c/c most any amounts though. villan probably thinks we have something like either a FD/SD (after the c/c on the turn) or something marginal like 88-JJ (which in fact, is what we have).

so, as stated, its pretty hard to put villan on a strong hand here- large pairs often RR pf. we can discount them. AQ would as well. sets and 2pair would often raise this flop. so we can generally discount them. Qx and such will GENERALLY check this turn for pc, so i think we can discount most Qs. so i think this river is a pretty easy c/c, SOMETIMES a c/f depending on his bet sizing.

[crovax4444]

I would c/c the river. Either he got lucky with his 7, missed his draw and will bluff us, or has a Qx. It seems more likely, as per orange's earlier analysis, that he has a draw, and therefore we should call. Any timing tells, or even an agro factor might help

Crovax

[Emperor Norton]

Interesting stuff, Orange, but can you explain why check/calling the turn is better than bet/folding? Seems like we might lose less when villain has a real hand, and gain more value from draws. Is it primarily a matter of pot control?

[orange]

emperor,
i think that his range is so so so weighted towards marginal hands that we are ahead of (as i stated in previous posts) that checking is more +EV. betting this turn is okay, but i think that theres simply more value in checking.

and yeah, it can be used in a form of pot control. villan will often check behind with hands that beat us (ie. weak Qs) but alternately call a bet if we bet ourselves. does that make sense? not sure if i'm just babbling or what.