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View Full Version : Poobah theory post: Hand Ranges


Supwithbates
05-30-2007, 11:01 AM
To celebrate two things, one of which is my bankroll finally exceeding my postcount, and the other of which is my becoming a poobah, I've decided to share some musings with my fellow uNLers.

As everyone knows, the concept behind hand reading in poker is putting your opponent on a range of hands given the line he takes. Aba20/SBRugby recently wrote an article in card player magazine on the subject that can be found here. (http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/16739)

Reading hands can sometimes be difficult at the microlimits. Often you'll see people throw out stupid valuebets with hands like 22 unimproved on the river, that never gets called by a worse hand but that has showdown value given the way the hand was played. Such bets frustrate me because they are essentially a bluff, even if not intended to be one, and requires a certain degree of adjustment to deal with it. But even against bad opponents, you can put them on a range, although it will generally be much wider than against a good thinking opponent (and not just because they're looser).

The major factors influencing your opponent's range are his holdings, the way the board comes out, and his feelings on your possible holdings.

This last concept is one that I think isn't stressed enough: how a villain's range of hands is defined by the way that we're playing our hand. I generally separate this into two different themes: the lines you take on any given hand individually, and metagame.

Think of it this way: Villain is a 70/0/0 loose passive station that you could say "never folds". However, if you open shoved into him, he's mucking a lot more than 70% of his hands. No matter how bad your opponent is, his holdings will always be defined largely by how you are playing your hand. This doesn't mean you can get him to fold second nuts, but it does mean that through deceptive play you can increase his range of hands so that his range is wide enough to include a lot of hands that are much worse. One example of how to use this concept to your advantage would be when deciding how to play a set on the flop against an aggressive preflop raiser. Do you lead out, check/call, check/raise? If you were to check/raise, you've defined your hand as strong in your effort to build a pot. If you lead out, however, you're likely to keep your opponent on a wider range of hands going to the turn---he might even decide to bluff/raise you with air! If he then improves on the turn to a second best hand that will pay you off, you've profited by manipulating your opponent's range. Another relevant point is "raising for information." By definition, an information raise has little value in forcing a mistake from your opponent, but instead protects you from making a larger mistake later on by forcing your opponent to define his hand. By actually tightening the range of hands your opponent could be holding, you've narrowed the number of hands you beat, but allow yourself to play more perfectly against those hands, thus saving you money in the longrun.

So now we move on to metagame. For my purposes today, I'm going to define metagame as an amalgamation of your overall playing style and the way that you are viewed by the other players at the table. By playing aggressively, you eventually will force opponents to adjust by widening the range they play back at you with. Referring back to the example from before, if you're playing a normal TAG game and suddenly open shove for 100BBs, discounting the possibility of a misclick you're not going to get called down lightly. However, take the same line for 12 hands in a row and you'll find that smarter opponents will be willing to gamble a bit and call with a wider range--instead of just AA and KK, they'll call with AJ+ 77+, for example. Metagame is all about creating an illusion, and confusing opponents by playing a wide range of hands the same way. Take an example in which you are the Big Blind, and it's folded to the small blind who limps. If you start raising a very wide range here, you will generally either force your opponent to give you more walks, or to play back at you with a wider range. Because you have position throughout the hand, the betting impetus, and the disguise afforded by aggressive metagame, this creates a very profitable situation because your opponent will call you down lightly thinking that they're ahead of your range.

As a closing note, I think that many uNLers are asking themselves the wrong questions when they evaluate a hand. After they lose a hand where they flop top pair top kicker or an overpair or whatever and get played back at and are felted by a better hand, they start to question, "Am I ever ahead here?" The better question to ask is, "did I play my hand in such a way up until this point that would allow me to be ahead of this opponent now that he's playing back at me." Although the range varies from person to person (and again, depends on how you play your hand and how the board comes out), most players have a range of hands that they will be willing to felt, whether it's TPTK+, overpairs, two pair, whatever. If you're at the bottom of that range of hands, it makes little sense to be trying to play for stacks because you'll be behind more often than you're ahead. Instead, you should focus in these situations on keeping your opponent interested with a wide range while still protecting your hand and extracting value.

munkey
05-30-2007, 11:47 AM
Bumping because I need to read this properly later, the link too[ ~2/3 down cardplayer page].

I particularly find interesting:

[ QUOTE ]

"did I play my hand in such a way up until this point that would allow me to be ahead of this opponent now that he's playing back at me."


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Instead, you should focus in these situations on keeping your opponent interested with a wide range while still protecting your hand and extracting value.


[/ QUOTE ]

I re- realised today that as I normally am very tight/aggr observant villans when they play back at me when I'm marginal/bluffing expect me on average to have a better hand than I really have so it makes folding easier vs heavier action.

Also, I particularly like srugby's openning comment about the essential maths of the game.

PJo336
05-30-2007, 12:31 PM
bump

bozzer
05-30-2007, 01:05 PM
tl;don't have time to read atm. looking forward to reading it later.

Fiksdal
05-30-2007, 01:08 PM
You have some interesting points here man. Especially the part about your playing style affecting your opponents ranges. Good post.

crovax4444
05-30-2007, 01:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]

The better question to ask is, "did I play my hand in such a way up until this point that would allow me to be ahead of this opponent now that he's playing back at me."

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Crovax

orig!naL
05-30-2007, 01:35 PM
very nice post! should be added to ssnl master sticky

Supwithbates
05-31-2007, 12:30 AM
Another note to make that this is much less true against people that play multiple tables as they will not be paying attention.
It will also be less true against really horrible players because they won't know how to adjust to your playing style.

Lurker.
05-31-2007, 12:46 AM
good post, sir. Quick bankroll question. When do you plan on moving up to 100nl?

Supwithbates
05-31-2007, 12:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
good post, sir. Quick bankroll question. When do you plan on moving up to 100nl?

[/ QUOTE ]
2200$

jonyy6788
05-31-2007, 12:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good post, sir. Quick bankroll question. When do you plan on moving up to 100nl?

[/ QUOTE ]
2200$

[/ QUOTE ]

point set to move back down if needed?

Supwithbates
05-31-2007, 12:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good post, sir. Quick bankroll question. When do you plan on moving up to 100nl?

[/ QUOTE ]
2200$

[/ QUOTE ]

point set to move back down if needed?

[/ QUOTE ]
1800-- but I'm already taking shots if I see any really big fish sitting at a table

I'm a student, back when I played donkaments and 10nl I used to withdraw my winnings every month, but now I'm actually trying to build a roll

jonyy6788
05-31-2007, 12:55 AM
u have a source of income I assume?

Lurker.
05-31-2007, 12:58 AM
hm. your plan is similar to mine. when did you move up to 50nl?

kaz2107
05-31-2007, 12:59 AM
good read and super important concept for people to understand

Supwithbates
05-31-2007, 01:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
hm. your plan is similar to mine. when did you move up to 50nl?

[/ QUOTE ]
2 weeks ago.
Took me about 10k hands to win 18 buyins and have been on a 12k breakeven since

One thing I want to clarify is that I'm not trying to say in the OP that checkraising the flop is a mistake; what I'm trying to express is that you have to be conscious of the image you create, and how that will affect the range of hands your opponent will continue with.

bluef0x
05-31-2007, 01:06 AM
Great read... esp. the check/raise part.

Lurker.
05-31-2007, 01:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hm. your plan is similar to mine. when did you move up to 50nl?

[/ QUOTE ]
2 weeks ago.
Took me about 10k hands to win 18 buyins and have been on a 12k breakeven since

One thing I want to clarify is that I'm not trying to say in the OP that checkraising the flop is a mistake; what I'm trying to express is that you have to be conscious of the image you create, and how that will affect the range of hands your opponent will continue with.

[/ QUOTE ]
when did you move up BR wise? like 1200?

doppelganger
05-31-2007, 01:27 AM
Great post man, thanks.

Supwithbates
05-31-2007, 01:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hm. your plan is similar to mine. when did you move up to 50nl?

[/ QUOTE ]
2 weeks ago.
Took me about 10k hands to win 18 buyins and have been on a 12k breakeven since

One thing I want to clarify is that I'm not trying to say in the OP that checkraising the flop is a mistake; what I'm trying to express is that you have to be conscious of the image you create, and how that will affect the range of hands your opponent will continue with.

[/ QUOTE ]
when did you move up BR wise? like 1200?

[/ QUOTE ]
moved to 25nl at 450, moved to 50nl at 1k.

Bowlboy
05-31-2007, 02:28 AM
Great read man. I just moved up to 25NL last night on a spur of a moment thing. I told myself if I lose 4 buy-ins I'd move down. I ran well. I'm up $285 since last night. Yay. 25NL seems kinda easy. How are you finding $50? Much more difficult, pretty much the same?

Supwithbates
05-31-2007, 03:31 AM
50nl is about the same as 25nl except for a few differences

play is overall more aggressive
people like to float more often
the shark:fish ratio is a lot worse

other than that, the regs aren't really much better than at 25nl, most are still pretty tagfishy. The fish are generally about the same.

Supwithbates
05-31-2007, 09:49 AM
Here's an example of playing my hand deceptively to widen villain's range, induce him to make a heroic bad call
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $97.50
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $49.75</font>
UTG: $29.55
CO: $56.80
BTN: $49.95

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $2.00</font>, SB calls $1.75, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7.00</font>, BTN calls $5.00, SB folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($16) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8.00</font>, BTN calls $8.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($32) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $0.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $34.75</font>, BTN calls $34.25

<font color="black">River:</font> ($101.50) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $101.50 ($2 Rake)

BTN had K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and LOST (-$49.75)
Hero had A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (a full house, Deuces full of Aces) and WON (+$49.75)


I check turn planning to CRAI but after he minbet, it looked very much like a bluff and induced a light call from villain

CrustyFace
05-31-2007, 11:12 AM
Hey Supwithbates, how's things.

That hand there.

a) What was he doing not reraising you prelop...

b) I LOVE that 50c into a $32 pot haha.

I'll have to reinstall gaim so we can catch up.

CrustyFace

ama0330
05-31-2007, 11:20 AM
I fear that people will not give this post the attention it deserves, which is a shame because I give it an A+++ (three plusses there.)

Very good intro to ranges.

shyturtle27
05-31-2007, 11:27 AM
Nice post, sir! Sticky it!

mrw8419
05-31-2007, 11:41 AM
Good post, but it seems the gist of what you're saying has to do with thinking on a higher level then your opponent. You should be analyzing your perceived hand range from villains perspective and how he reacts to your percieved range should help you make decisions based on how he views your hand. How he reacts to your hand range from his view helps you narrow down his actual range.

Bramsterdam
05-31-2007, 12:02 PM
I like this thread, good read. Can you give practical advise on this subject? What is a good way to widen your opponent's range? Maybe provide an example?

Or is this something you just have to practice all over, just like hand reading? There must be some "standard" move to manipulate ranges right?

Well you at least managed to get me thinking about it. Still a little bit confused though /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Tickner
05-31-2007, 12:25 PM
good thread bro. I enjoyed it.

incidentally I have been working on a hand ranges article as well, which I will be posting in SSNL over the next few days.

Abramovic
05-31-2007, 12:42 PM
Yea very good post in that it is perfectly specific to uNL.

whodatdare
05-31-2007, 04:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Nice post, sir! Sticky it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that.

bluef0x
06-03-2007, 06:59 PM
Just wanted to say this post really helped my game.... I think more people should be reading it /images/graemlins/smile.gif