25NL JJ and i'm in call down mode

[creamfillin]

I struggle in these spots when an overcard flops to my medium pair, I'm always torn between "do I rep the overcard or go into bluff catcher mode". Usually on a very wet board I'll bet at it, but i chose to check here. Do you call this river? how about a non-ace river

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($43.95)
Hero ($24.40)
Button ($31.65)
SB ($0.70)
BB ($37.20)
UTG ($22.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($2.35) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $1</font>, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($4.35) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $2.25</font>, Hero calls $2.25.

River: ($8.85) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $5.25</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $14.10

[Atlanta Andrew]

NH.

It'd be an easier decision to play it this way if you had QQ, but I see nothing wrong with usind the same line for JJ. I also like your reasoning about the wet vs dry board.

Depends on the villain, but I'm probably not calling river even if it's a non-ace.

-Andrew

[BoerfSt]

I make a bet on the flop, if he calls I make a second bet on the turn against lose players.
As played I fold river.But I think its better to make a bet on flop and go from there.

[Dastone]

What do you make of villains play, along with his perception of you? Because I don't like this line at all. Unless there is some info that we're missing.

You basically just handed over the pot to villain, I think. Villain likely doesn't believe you are check/calling all the way down with an ace high hand, so if he's bluffing he can confidently bluff the river knowing that you will not call.

I don't know if that's the case; it's likely not, but I just thinking checking the flop is the wrong play in this situation with this hand.

If you had a hand that you could check/call all the way down with I think it's fine, but we don't.

That is why I would make a bet on the flop, or even donk the turn(if we plan on calling another barrell.) At least this way you have shown some kind of interest in the pot, and may likely slow villain down, and force him to consider that you might have a good enough hand, and so he likely not be taking shots at you, and you can fold with confidence.

[Atlanta Andrew]

Dastone,

The whole point of your post seems to be that hero should be betting to prevent getting 3-barrel bluffed by villain. This just does not happen often enough, imo, to make it an important strategy for this hand.

I never make a bet for the sole reason to "slow villain down", especially out of postion.

Betting the flop is usually going to fold all worse hands and get called or raised by better hands. There's not much value in it.

-Andrew

[ontiltsoon]

Sorry, but I don't like this resoning at all, maybe it's just a leak I have, I'm not saying you are wrong.

By simply check/calling you are letting villain catchup at what ever price he want's even for free. Betting the flop gives you the option of winning a 9BB pot insted of having to fold a 35BB because with your passive play.

As in this handQQ 3betted preflop (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=10563840&amp;page=) I think you have to bet almost 100% of the time.

[Dastone]

I know it seems like that, and it's likely because as I was looking at the hand I came to the conclussion that on the river hero's hand and play was easily exploited there, and then worked backwards.

That's why I made sure to mention that getting 3 barrelled was likely not the case.

People always seem to say, well if I bet here villain won't call me with a worse hand, and that if they call or raise that I must be beat. But what to say that villain wouldn't call with a draw or a worse made hand.

You have to make a bet, give them an opportunity, in order to allow them to make the mistake of calling with a worse hand. You can't just say, they won't and that is why you don't bet.

I just see villains being given the opportunity to win the pot in many more ways by checking the flop to them. Either from free cards, bluffing/semi-bluffing. We are giving away too much information that we don't have top pair and aren't willing to play a big pot, thus allowing villain to determine what course of action we take.

So my donk on the turn suggesttion is obviously not the greatest, but if we are going to call here, and fold the river to any card we might as well make a bet, where one of the benefits aside from winning the pot, might have been to allow us a free showdown.

[Atlanta Andrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I don't like this resoning at all, maybe it's just a leak I have, I'm not saying you are wrong.

By simply check/calling you are letting villain catchup at what ever price he want's even for free. Betting the flop gives you the option of winning a 9BB pot insted of having to fold a 35BB because with your passive play.

As in this handQQ 3betted preflop (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=10563840&amp;page=) I think you have to bet almost 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

Your point about not letting the villain catch up for free is well taken, but this board, as OP pointed out, is not very wet. There's not a bunch of draws we need to worry about, and only two overcards. Granted, I said I like OP's line better with QQ since he would only have one overcard to worry about.

Assuming that villain's outs are usually in the 2 - 5 range when he's behind, I'm willing to risk forfeiting pot protection in this hand in favor of these other beneifts:

1) Keeping the pot under control. Once that K hits the flop, we want our marginal hand to get to showdown without paying multiple bets.

2) Not losing value from worse hands that won't call a flop bet, but will bluff or call on later streets.

I don't think you have a leak, by the way, but there's no way hero should be betting this flop 100% of the time.

-Andrew

[ontiltsoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
No coincidence /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So when do you cbet?

[Atlanta Andrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
No coincidence /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So when do you cbet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cbet when:

1. Villain is a bad player that will call down with any pair or weak draws.

2. Wet boards with both straight and flush possibilities:

J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on a A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif board

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif on a K /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif board

3. If my single pair is also part of a strong flush or straight draw.

-Andrew

[Supwithbates]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
No coincidence /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So when do you cbet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cbet when:

1. Villain is a bad player that will call down with any pair or weak draws.

2. Wet boards with both straight and flush possibilities:

J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on a A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif board

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif on a K /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif board

3. If my single pair is also part of a strong flush or straight draw.

-Andrew

[/ QUOTE ]
What's your plan OOP if called? Are you planning on betting again on the turn? C/c? C/f?

[Atlanta Andrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting you posted that hand because I also recommended checking the flop in that thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
No coincidence /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So when do you cbet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cbet when:

1. Villain is a bad player that will call down with any pair or weak draws.

2. Wet boards with both straight and flush possibilities:

J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on a A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif board

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif on a K /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif board

3. If my single pair is also part of a strong flush or straight draw.

-Andrew

[/ QUOTE ]
What's your plan OOP if called? Are you planning on betting again on the turn? C/c? C/f?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn I am planning on either checking, betting, calling or folding. /images/graemlins/smile.gif In all seriousness, I need more information to answer your question.

You're not talking about OP's hand, are you? Because I said to check the flop in that one.

-Andrew

[Emperor Norton]

[ QUOTE ]

Betting the flop is usually going to fold all worse hands and get called or raised by better hands. There's not much value in it.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but often beside the point. Even if you allow villain to play perfectly by betting the flop, you have a positive expectation in the hand. By check/calling out of position, you allow villain to make a mistake, but you also allow yourself to make a mistake. Out of position, presumably readless, how confident are you that you'll exploit him more than he'll exploit you?

(Also, I object to OP characterizing this flop as "very wet." The flop is moist, to say the most.)

[Atlanta Andrew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Betting the flop is usually going to fold all worse hands and get called or raised by better hands. There's not much value in it.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but often beside the point. Even if you allow villain to play perfectly by betting the flop, you have a positive expectation in the hand. By check/calling out of position, you allow villain to make a mistake, but you also allow yourself to make a mistake. Out of position, presumably readless, how confident are you that you'll exploit him more than he'll exploit you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Be more specific please. How will the villain exploit us in this hand if we check the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
(Also, I object to OP characterizing this flop as "very wet." The flop is moist, to say the most.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that OP was implying that the board was dry, not wet. At least that's the way I read it. On a wet board, as I already said, I am much more inclined to bet the flop. This flop (okay call it "moist") is a tougher decision, but I'm fine with checking it for the reasons I have previously given.

-Andrew

[creamfillin]

The way I wrote it sounds confusing, I mean I'll usually ONLY lead the flop when the board is very wet, this board is pretty dry.

[Emperor Norton]

[ QUOTE ]

Be more specific please. How will the villain exploit us in this hand if we check the flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

By betting more when he has us beat than when he doesn't have us beat. This is a common reverse implied odds situation, no? We'll almost surely pay more to get to showdown when we're beaten than when we're ahead.

bet flop, fold to a raise. If he calls flop bet I check turn and try to get to showdown cheaply.

[Sam Spade]

I bet the flop. Betting gives more chances to win than a c/c. Additionally, we can get away from the hand if villain raises.

[ama0330]

I bet this flop because your hand basically has no value when faced with going three streets OOP. For those who say that this turns JJ into a bluff, yeah it does, but it IS a bluff if villain has a King, which is just about all hes going to showdown with anyway. Id bet the flop, and probably cf turn or cc a small one and cf or cc river. Its a lot cheaper than cc three streets and losing to a hand you couldnt have been ahead of anyway.

Cliffnotes: Villain very rarely bets three streets on this board with a hand that you are ahead of, so bust a move earlier or fold.

[Atlanta Andrew]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet this flop because your hand basically has no value when faced with going three streets OOP. For those who say that this turns JJ into a bluff, yeah it does, but it IS a bluff if villain has a King, which is just about all hes going to showdown with anyway. Id bet the flop, and probably cf turn or cc a small one and cf or cc river. Its a lot cheaper than cc three streets and losing to a hand you couldnt have been ahead of anyway.

Cliffnotes: Villain very rarely bets three streets on this board with a hand that you are ahead of, so bust a move earlier or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I'm not following. You're saying to bet JJ so we can bluff a king? That makes no sense. Villain is not folding a king. If you're saying to bluff other hands, then why? JJ is too strong a hand to be bluffing with. It has decent showdown value.

Correct, it does not have three streets worth of showdown value, but who says that hero is c/c all three streets? This is only regarding the flop play, not the turn or river.

I still don't see why we need to make a move on the flop when there's little value to be had. The board is dry enough where we're not overly worried about a draw so why bet when we can induce bluffs and/or get to showdown for cheap?

-Andrew

[Archon_Wing]

I'd bet this flop unless he was a total calling station. A lot of villains will look you up with a lot of worse holdings especially if you cont bet frequently. Straight draws will call as well but obviously slow down afterwards.