Ferguson's theory about never entering a pot without raising

[betgo]

Ferguson's article on bet sizing in the "Full Tilt Strategy Guide" is interesting. I don't agree with his points about not letting your hand influence your preflop raise size or flop bet size. I think it should be a factor, but not in an obvious way.

Ferguson does not believe in open limping, which I of course do not agree with. He also says that when he won the WSOP ME he used the approach of never entering a pot without a raise. That is, if there were limpers, he would raise. If there was a raise, he would reraise. If it was reraised, he would 4-bet if he played. He says that is how he played then, but he doesn't play that way entirely now. He said it helped him win the WSOP, because people overestimated his hands when he reraised.

First of all, this depends on personal style, and someone like Negreanu, who likes to outplay postflop, is not a big reraiser.

Also, you have to take into account the nature of your hand, your position, the action, the stacks, and so on. Sometimes a flat call or limp behind is better.

A raise or reraise also reopens action for a limpreraise or 4-bet, so there are advantages to not raising.

However, I think there is a lot of point to what Ferguson is saying. People will flat call or limp behind and see a flop taking the "safe route", when a raise puts more pressure on.

Obviously, "resteals" have become common for short stacks late in tournaments.

I think that with deeper money, often times a reraise is more effective. People have the attitude that a reraise needs to be a very strong hand, but this is not true. I realize also that loose reraises are common in major tournaments and other relatively tough tournament tables.

[curtains]

The key is that he doesn't play that way now /images/graemlins/smile.gif I assume that is pretty much an admittance that his old strategy was not ideal.

[Colombo]

Open limping is gross.

Ferguson's theory makes more sense as the blinds get deeper and stacks shallower. However in the first level 3betting with a hand like 33 is just dumb.

[curtains]

Ehh Open limping is obviously fine in plenty of situations.

[Colombo]

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Ehh Open limping is obviously fine in plenty of situations.

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I could see open limping being ok with like QJs or 44 EP in the first level, but I'd still prefer to raise.

Where else do you think open limping is fine? IMO, a raise is always more profitable.

[curtains]

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Ehh Open limping is obviously fine in plenty of situations.

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I could see open limping being ok with like QJs or 44 EP in the first level, but I'd still prefer to raise.

Where else do you think open limping is fine? IMO, a raise is always more profitable.

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There are very few absolutes in poker. There are so many different game conditions and opponents that it's usually incorrect to say one thing is always correct 100% of the time. I can imagine open limping in many situations. I of course open raise more often, but most of the best players in the world open limp on occasion. I actually dare you to name one top player that you've never once seen open limp on TV (not counting the SB of course).

[shaundeeb]

Open limping is the right move in such a resteal happy world.

[nairb09]

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Open limping is the right move in such a resteal happy world.

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[betgo]

There are obviously situations where flat calling is best. However, my observation is that people these days tend to reraise with shallow money, but with deep money, there tends to be a call and see the flop approach. Often a reraise is a better play. That is what I found interesting about Ferguson's approach.

Obviously, there are some situations where open limping is reasonable. For one thing, it sets up a reraise.

I also think people limp behind when a raise is better, but obviously if you have 33 on the button, limping behind is generally better.

I thought Ferguson had some good ideas but they were expressed in too absolute a way. For example, he says don't vary your raise by your hand, and gives the example of if you only sometimes limp AA, but limp nothing else, or sometimes make an extra large raise with AA but do that with nothing else, then you give away your hand. Well, some people do give away AA or KK by makig unusual plays.

However, Brunson is Super System suggested limping big pairs and suited connectors in the same situation. Harrington suggested making a large raise with AK or TT but varying the raise size and sometimes making the large raise with other hands. It seems like you can vary your raise by your hand without giving away too much information.

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Open limping is the right move in such a resteal happy world.

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Don't resteals entail a steal attempt, not an open-limp?

[uclabruinz]

In general I rarely open-limp, but of course curtains is right in that there is a time and place for it, and for certain players open-limping regularly is not a bad thing.

As for reraises, I tend to reraise a lot more when I'm deep or when I'm in the resteal shove range. Between those two extremes, I like to flat call because stack sizes tend to make things uncomfortable for the OP player.

[Bonified]

I interpreted the post to mean that with so much re-stealing going on, if you have a hand that wants to take a flop with implied odds and/or you have a stack such that an opponent can resteal all-in efficiently, you'd rather limp than raise with a lot of hands.

It's just another way of saying "don't bet/raise when you hate a reraise".

[betgo]

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In general I rarely open-limp, but of course curtains is right in that there is a time and place for it, and for certain players open-limping regularly is not a bad thing.

As for reraises, I tend to reraise a lot more when I'm deep or when I'm in the resteal shove range. Between those two extremes, I like to flat call because stack sizes tend to make things uncomfortable for the OP player.

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I agree with this. The reraise is more powerful if it puts you allin or close. Also, if you have about 100xBB, your opponent cannot 4-bet without close to pot committing himself, but that is an overbet. When you the maximum you two have is about 50xBB, you can't push or even go and go OOP, but your opponent has the option of putting you allin, so I would be more likely to flat call with that stack size.

Of course you also are more likely to reraise from the SB and flat call from position or flat call a small raise from the BB. If someone makes an early position raise, it is tricky whether to call or reraise in early to mid position with players to act.

Obviously, you are more likely to flat call with a pp or suited connector.

I think there is a lot to when to reraise, when to raise limpers, and even when to open limp. Ferguson is right that people too often flat call, limp behind, or open limp. However, he could have gone more into when to reraise etc., rahter than to say always come in with a raise; that's how I won the WSOP.

[Todd Terry]

Chris Ferguson, Gavin Smith, Andy Bloch

[DLizzle]

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Open limping is the right move in such a resteal happy world.

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Don't resteals entail a steal attempt, not an open-limp?

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exactly

[KingDan]

I'm guessing back in the day everyone folded too much so raise a lot = pwn

Now no one ever folds so more situations to see cheap flop/ship the nuts/pwn

Plus he's prolly better now and would prefer to be deeper in a bunch more spots.

[Nicok7]

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Chris Ferguson, Gavin Smith, Andy Bloch

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The only one I've played with is Gavin Smith and he did limp a lot around level 2/3/4

[xdeucesx]

Thats why he is suggesting to limp. Because if you raise and are reraised you would have to lay down some marginal hands that you could limp and get away with.

[woodguy]

This theory is very good for players like me.

When you only raise, and re-raise PF you tend to narrowly define your opponents hand a lot.

For players like me, who do not play enough, and are essentially not as good as many, it really helps.

Unless I'm in LP.

Regards,
Woodguy

edit: Cont bets from a 3 bet hold a lot of weight as well

[betgo]

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This theory is very good for players like me.

When you only raise, and re-raise PF you tend to narrowly define your opponents hand a lot.

For players like me, who do not play enough, and are essentially not as good as many, it really helps.

Unless I'm in LP.

Regards,
Woodguy

edit: Cont bets from a 3 bet hold a lot of weight as well

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Yeh, I think Ferguson is math genious, but couldn't "play poker" as well as top players when he won the WSOP. Doyle mentioned in SS2 that Ferguson did a good job of creating big pots HU against TJ so that TJ couldn't outplay him.

While this approach may have worked for him, it seems strange that he presents it as a correct approach in general. Of course, maybe I do the same with my "red zone" posts.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Open limping is the right move in such a resteal happy world.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Don't resteals entail a steal attempt, not an open-limp?

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exactly

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PF pot control. Think Negreanu, et al. The steal/restal situations occur postflop.

[Machinehead]

I've seen some people do very well raising or reraising every pot they play. I think it works best for Tight/Hyper-aggressive players in tournaments.

I don't play that way though. There are too many good opportunitys to see cheap flops. Especially in the early rounds. When the blinds go up, preflop aggression becomes more profitable.

[MaLiik]

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The key is that he doesn't play that way now /images/graemlins/smile.gif I assume that is pretty much an admittance that his old strategy was not ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]The game has changed, if someone gets reraised there not gona call! It will be a push/fold move, the internet pro's has brought a new dimension to the game where "survival" wont take you ITM any more. Old poker books often talks about avoiding coinflips and such, but today you'll have to take them and should do so early.