50nl - 3bet KK, get cold called by sb

[pwalsh21]

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $96.50
BB: $40.20
UTG: $52.45
CO: $49.25
<font color="black">Hero (BTN): $60.40</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt Khttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Khttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $2.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.75</font>, SB calls $6.50, 2 folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($16) Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($16) 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $10.00</font>, Hero calls $10.00

<font color="black">River:</font> ($36) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $35.00</font>, Hero folds

SB is 18/9/3 over 75 hands and seems pretty tight postflop. After his river bet, he typed "u can fold kk." This didn't really influence my decision, although it's probably less likely he's bluffing (I think). I didn't bet the flop because I assumed he absolutely has to have AA/QQ to call my 3bet. Is my line okay? Am I giving him too much credit preflop?

[Maneh]

Dont bet this flop is MUCH weak;

Villain can easy call your 3bet with a small pp for set value, AK and maybe AQ

As played i dont know what to do now /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Quester]

If you assumed that his range is ONLY AA/QQ on the flop, then why call the turn bet?

[Angrymoog]

You have to bet this flop, the hand plays much differently and you might get a chance to let it go when opponent makes a super strong play on the turn.

[wikemang]

Bet flop to figure out where you stand. Calling turn and folding river in this spot seems very bad to me.

[pwalsh21]

Here's the thing... if I bet the flop and assuming this is a somewhat reasonable player, I'm only getting called by hands that beat me. There's no way he has AQ/KQ here. Now by checking the flop I might induce a bluff from AK/JJ/random hand, which is why I called the turn. The river seems like a clear fold, though.

I know checking seems weak, but what is the reason for betting besides stopping a bluff? Maybe a LAG could have AQ/KQ/KJ, but I don't see any way this guy does.

[Angrymoog]

You bet because there are hands you are crushing which are likely to call. And you bet for protection, both of your hand now and future hands where you hold a bluff.

[cuQa]

as played I would call the river.

You showed no strength but preflop and he probably smelled a chance to win this.

I dont think that he really put you on KK .. that would absolutly not do any sense..

And I dont understand why you check the flop .. omg

[pwalsh21]

Considering I had been playing pretty tight, you really think an 18/9 would call $6.50 with AQ/KQ oop? Maybe you're right, but I just can't see it. I know 75 hands isn't a lot, but the guy obviously has some sort of clue how to play (preflop, at least), and he'd have to be an idiot to call with that weak of a hand oop. And those are the only hands I'm beating that I will get any value from by betting the flop. I agree with your point on protection, but not at 50nl. I don't think that comes into play until at least 100nl/200nl.

[cuQa]

well, I just played a hand against a 20/15/2 guy and he raised from the BTN. I 3-betted him at the BB with the triple amount and our stacks were 100BB .. He called with 85s and called a 3/4 bet at a J83 board ..

I dont know but stats seem to not say anything at this limit


there ar ejust so much abd players out there that I would always stack off in that hand. another thing is that he coldcalled you with another guy to act behind I wouldnt give him the credit to do that with aces

[vixticator]

That's not a bad flop. I assume he would re-raise with Aces. Why do you think he only calls with AA/QQ preflop with $90 behind? He's getting a reasonable price for set value and AK, and less likely but still some percentage he's got a suited connector of some kind.

So, bet the flop. If he moves over the top for a lot you can release.

[Angrymoog]

He might also call with weaker hands on the flop because he thinks youre bluffing with a cbet.

[pwalsh21]

[ QUOTE ]
well, I just played a hand against a 20/15/2 guy and he raised from the BTN. I 3-betted him at the BB with the triple amount and our stacks were 100BB .. He called with 85s and called a 3/4 bet at a J83 board ..

I dont know but stats seem to not say anything at this limit


there ar ejust so much abd players out there that I would always stack off in that hand. another thing is that he coldcalled you with another guy to act behind I wouldnt give him the credit to do that with aces

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean and I've seen plenty of people with good stats stack off with ridiculous hands. But I hardly ever see a tight player cold call a 3bet oop with garbage. It's always a huge hand. Also, if the flop was something like T72 or JJ4, then I would bet the flop/stack off 100% of the time. Idk, just a strange hand.

[Chomp]

On the {QcTs2h} flop:


Villain: 42.406% { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hero: 57.594% { KK }


...or if you must...


Villain: 52.159% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hero: 47.841% { KK }



And I think this villain re-pops AA a lot of the time here preflop.

I bet flop for value, for protection and because I like to make a standard cbet as the pf 3bettor. At the table I wouldn't know my equity was as good as stove suggests, so I might well fold if he pushes, but I think that would be wrong.

As played, beware the speech and fold river.

[phil iveyND]

you gotta bet this flop it changes the entire hand making everything evey decision easier.

[Supwithbates]

Nice hand.
However, if you think he's ONLY coldcalling QQ+ here then obv fold turn. I think this read is a mistake, however... even tight players are calling lots of mid pairs and AK. 88+ AK is probably more realistic, these donks love to setmine/float.

Depending on villain's fold to cbet %, I like the check behind. If he's not the type to get tricky and float 99/JJ in a big pot, then the check behind is optimal. If he's a floater I like a bet flop/check turn line better.

As played the river looks like a fold, I don't see him doing this with anything you beat.

To those advocating a flop bet:
What value are you seeing in the flop bet? Making a hand "easier" to play has no value; if he raises hands that beat us and folds hands we beat then we obv make the hand much easier to play, but that doesn't mean it's a good line to take.

Against a straightforward/slightly nitty TAG, checking the flop is a powerful move because it underrepresents our hand. Nitty villains aren't going to stack off with AQ here unless we have a crazy table image. Instead, we gain more longterm value when we're ahead by playing deceptively here; we also prevent ourselves from losing less.

[phil iveyND]

By betting the flop we get value from worse hands like AQ, JJ. We can also fold this flop if we are c/r or check the turn for pot control if called.

[cuQa]

[ QUOTE ]

Against a straightforward/slightly nitty TAG, checking the flop is a powerful move because it underrepresents our hand. Nitty villains aren't going to stack off with AQ here unless we have a crazy table image. Instead, we gain more longterm value when we're ahead by playing deceptively here; we also prevent ourselves from losing less.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you want to get value out of a hand if you first represent your hand weaker than it is and then fold if the action gets big?

[Angrymoog]

I don't see how checking the flop is going to suddenly make a nitty villain want to stack off with AQ. Surely if villain is folding AQ here on the flop to a reasonable cbet we ought to be cbetting him on every single 3bet pot.

[cuQa]

If I would play that pot and see someone who does not c-bet this flop I would get suspicious and play even more carefully

[creamfillin]

IMO you have to bet this flop, there are a bunch of turn cards that suck (Q,A,J) that are going to make this hand hard to continue with after the turn. If he is calling with AQ PF he isn't folding on this flop, he may see want to see another card with AK, or JJ. Too many cards that hurt you on the turn.