God? Maybe. But we all came from something, right?

[BalancedOne]

I've always had a hard time verbalizing my thoughts about whether or not I believe in god. I certainly don't believe in the bible as the "word of god." I really have a hard time accepting that Jesus died for my sins. I think Jesus was probably a really good person that probably taught a lot of people of his time how to live a good life. But was he able to turn water into wine? Probably not. I completly believe in evolution. I think that we evolved from apes and that the universe is something like 3 billion years old. (Although I can't even imagine how long that is) I've always thought that one of the most important things that I've ever asked myself is "where did I come from?" Probably like a lot of people, especially on this forum, I think about that question a lot. And this is what I think. Everything that has ever existed came from the Big Bang. From me and you, to both of my sons (3 and 20 months), to this computer, to all the stars in the sky, the moon, everything in the universe came from the big bang. So in essence, I have ALWAYS existed. The stuff that makes me who I am has ALWAYS been around. It's just that now that I'm me, my perspective has changed. I can see things from this point of view. But the "energy" that created me has always been there. I was trying to explain this to my wife, and 2 friends of ours last night at dinner and I always have a hard time explaining myself. (Maybe you are having a hard time understanding me now) I gave an example to them like this: Imagaine a cup of chocolate milk that doesn't yet exist, but has really ALWAYS been around. I say that it's always been around because the milk is already here, and the Hershey's chocolate syrup is already here, but the chocolate milk doesn't exist yet because the 2 ingredients haven't been mixed together yet. When they get mixed together, the chocolate milk is now created and now can exist as chocolate milk. It's perspective has changed. The stuff that was needed to create me has always existed, it's just now that I am experiencing life from this perspective, and when I die, maybe my perspective will change again. Maybe I will gain the perspective as my oldest son.

I don't know. Maybe this rambling of thoughts doesn't make any sense. Maybe you can understand why I have a hard time verbalizing my thoughts.

Thanks!

BalancedOne

[godBoy]

It's a perfectly reasonable question and it's one that many many have asked before you.

[ QUOTE ]
Everything that has ever existed came from the Big Bang. From me and you, to both of my sons (3 and 20 months), to this computer, to all the stars in the sky, the moon, everything in the universe came from the big bang. So in essence, I have ALWAYS existed. The stuff that makes me who I am has ALWAYS been around.

[/ QUOTE ]
The big bang suggests a finite universe and a beginning. So you haven't ALWAYS existed at some point you banged into existence.

Something that I have brought up before in this question is the idea of eternity and here's my thoughts on it.

0 + 0 = 0

Nothing + nothing = nothing. If there were ever a time when there was absolute nothingness then I am convinced that there would still be nothing. The fact that there is a 1 on this side of equation(something in existence), I am convinced that there has always been an eternal being in existence before me, even before the big bang.

[MidGe]

1 + 0 = 1

The world as it is, without a creator, is still the world as it is!

[godBoy]

yep, you're right.
I took my little analogy a little further than I usually do, I usually argue that all that is proved is that 'something' has always existed.

So, The argument is not one in support of God - per se, but an argument for Eternity.

[Phil153]

godBoy,

Nothing from something:

0 = -1 + 1


Something from nothing:

-1 + 1 = 0

Weirdness beyond understanding:

-i^2 = 1

And beauty beyond belief:

e^(i*pi) = -1

The universe does not fit into your box.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
And beauty beyond belief:

e^(i*pi) = -1

The universe does not fit into your box.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif ++

[godBoy]

There's only ones and zero's in the example Phil.

Something and nothing, it's really very simple - wonderfully so /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The universe does not fit into your box.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can't a 1 mean whatever I would like a 1 to mean - especially when it's understandable and reasonable to do so?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Can't a 1 mean whatever I would like a 1 to mean - especially when it's understandable and reasonable to do so?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, like you notion of god can mean whatever you would like. No point in discussing it at all, after all reasonable or not, it only has to do with what you think is reasonable, not with any evidence!

[godBoy]

jeesh Midge, you really got me. Perhaps Phil will not notice this and respond to me before he sees that you have thoroughly.. shut me down big time!

[yukoncpa]

Hi BalancedOne, here's a post from Metric that seems to address your issue:

[ QUOTE ]
Your consciousness will remain every bit a part of reality, even in the most atheistic sense. The distinction between future, past, and present is somewhat misunderstood -- they're all a part of the same state of the universe. You should not think of death as "an event which causes you not to be" -- you should think of death (along with conception) more as a boundary to the little region of spacetime defining your existence. That corner of spacetime will always be yours; you do exist -- you have been granted reality along with the rest of the universe -- and nothing can ever change that.



[/ QUOTE ]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=scimathphil&Number=92 55926&Searchpage=1&Main=9246400&Words=granted+Metr ic&topic=&Search=true#Post9255926)

[JussiUt]

BalancedOne, that's one way of thinking about it and I don't certainly disagree with you. I think it's pretty poetic. We're all a bunch of atoms and those atoms where there before our birth and they continue to be after we die. They assembled together for a brief period time and gave us this perspective, this conciousness.

A cool way of thinking. It doesn't take a stance whether there was a Creator or not.

[Xylem]

Heres a really really insightive philosophical mind fk.

What created the Atoms??????

Yea, i know im smart.

[BalancedOne]

yukoncpa,

Thanks for your reply. This is kind of what I have come to think. What I haven't decided is whether or not when my physical body dies, if I will instantly be born again as myself. And furthermore, will I be destined to make the exact same choices and then lead the exact same life. The problem, obviously, becomes that this may be the millionth time that I have lived this life and therefore I don't really have free will to make any choices because I am doomed to repeat the same life over and over again. Luckily, so far, in my almost 32 years I have felt very fortunate to have lived a fairly "blessed" life. I guess if I am destined to repeat this life over and over, it doesn't really matter if god exists or not, right? Because the recurring thought (fear) for me is that we only live once and there is no heaven, but if we live over and over again in the same body as the same person, then as long as I TRY and choose the right choices, then heaven doesn't really matter. That would seem to be okay for me but what about the child that is molested by his father, or who's parents die in a car accident when they are 13? I wouldn't want them to have to live the same life over and over. So, hopefully, we DO have free will and every life has the chance to be different, and maybe the molestor will choose to be a good person in the next life.

Thanks!

BalancedOne (Steve)

[JussiUt]

I liked your first post BalancedOne, but I don't really get where you are basing your second post on. We are repeating the same life over and over? Huh? That kind of stuff certainly was not in yukoncpa's link.

[Philo]

[ QUOTE ]
What I haven't decided is whether or not when my physical body dies, if I will instantly be born again as myself. And furthermore, will I be destined to make the exact same choices and then lead the exact same life.

BalancedOne (Steve)

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, if you think it is possible that you can survive the death of your physical body, what do you conceive of yourself as?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that we evolved from apes and that the universe is something like 3 billion years old.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take the following as an attack because it isn't.

We didn't evolve from apes and the universe is quite a bit older than 3 billion years. You say you have a hard time explaining what you mean, but that may be partly because your background knowledge is incomplete. I suggest you do more reading on the origins of the universe and of life on earth. You may find that filling some of the gaps in your knowledge will clarify your thoughts about your own existence.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that we evolved from apes and that the universe is something like 3 billion years old.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take the following as an attack because it isn't.

We didn't evolve from apes and the universe is quite a bit older than 3 billion years. You say you have a hard time explaining what you mean, but that may be partly because your background knowledge is incomplete. I suggest you do more reading on the origins of the universe and of life on earth. You may find that filling some of the gaps in your knowledge will clarify your thoughts about your own existence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the word 'ape' might be one of the top 5 most abused words in discussions about evolution, right up there with 'theory' and 'random.'

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
Heres a really really insightive philosophical mind fk.

What created the Atoms??????

Yea, i know im smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

they basically created themselves as it became less dense and temperature cooled after the big bang....supposedly

[BalancedOne]

Okay, I was off by about 10.7 billion years on the age of the universe. But really, I still can't imagine 13.7 billion years any better than I could imagine how long 3 billion years is, but regardless, I was wrong with the age. My only point about "evolving from apes" was that we evolved from Australopithecus, which had an ape-like head and wasn't homosapien, and that we weren't just put here by god when he was creating the earth (at least I don't believe that)

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I was off by about 10.7 billion years on the age of the universe. But really, I still can't imagine 13.7 billion years any better than I could imagine how long 3 billion years is, but regardless, I was wrong with the age. My only point about "evolving from apes" was that we evolved from Australopithecus, which had an ape-like head and wasn't homosapien, and that we weren't just put here by god when he was creating the earth (at least I don't believe that)

[/ QUOTE ]

He wasn't trying to be too critical of you, but if you spend enough time arguing with creationists you start to get a little short-tempered with people on 'our side' who misuse vernacular, are imprecise with definitions or terms, and falsely describe the actual theories and explanations. If you, a non-creationist, cannot get the current accepted dates and nomenclature correct, this provides lots of ammunition for those who are dead-set on denying and are much more interested in plausible victory/obfuscation than knowledge.