$100r pushbot check up

[djk123]

I pushed last orbit from co with ~5k and everyone folded. Push/fold in these 3 hands? Table is 8 handed. Oh and i think we were 3-5 minutes away from 200-400 blinds.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t300/t600
(Ante: t50)
8 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: t11880
UTG+1: t12790
MP1: t7965
djk123: t5360
CO: t21053
Button: t11005
SB: t12460
BB: t16330

Pre-flop: (8 players) djk123 is MP2 with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif
3 folds, djk123

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t300/t600
(Ante: t50)
8 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: t12740
UTG+1: t7915
djk123: t5310
MP2: t21003
CO: t10955
Button: t13410
SB: t15680
BB: t11830

Pre-flop: (8 players) djk123 is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
2 folds, djk123

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t300/t600
(Ante: t50)
8 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: t7865
djk123: t5260
MP1: t20953
MP2: t10905
CO: t13360
Button: t15030
SB: t12780
BB: t12690

Pre-flop: (8 players) djk123 is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">djk123

[Ansky]

instinctually it feels like fold fold fold.

[0evg0]

fold/fold/shove

[ianisakson]

if I had to pick one to shove, it would probably be A9 although I hate A9 in that spot. A9 sucks UTG +1 against competent opponents. I fold all 3 of these and find a better spot next orbit.

[stevepa]

First two are definitely folds. Last one I think I'd fold but wouldn't be surprised if push was right.

[ChieftanMews]

1. Fold: horrible.
2. Fold: if suited, maybe. Offsuit, no thanks.
3. Fold: I don't like pushing w/ A-rag, especially from EP. I'd find a better spot later.

[luckychewy]

first two are clear folds imo(esp in 109r where people are more aware of lighter push ranges and you will get calls from some hands that will fold in other tournaments). third hand i probably fold too but like steve i wouldn't be surprised if a shove was correct. also, it doesn't help that in all 3 hands every behind covers you.

[0evg0]

I may not be good at a lot of things, but I'm usually good at vacuum-guessing pushbot ranges, and I'm pretty confident that the A9 is good and A8s would be as well.

[nath]

Sometimes I push all 3 but I think on balance I fold the first two mostly but not the third

Also I think anyone who uses the phrase "wait for a better spot" should not post in the forum. A better spot doesn't always come. The question is if, all things considered, this spot is good enough. Even if you want to wait for a better spot, you might need the chips you'd get from THIS spot to take full advantage of it.

[THEOSU]

i def fold the first two, but will push the third if i'm anxious or if the table is tight.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
instinctually it feels like fold fold fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ChieftanMews]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I think anyone who uses the phrase "wait for a better spot" should not post in the forum. A better spot doesn't always come. The question is if, all things considered, this spot is good enough. Even if you want to wait for a better spot, you might need the chips you'd get from THIS spot to take full advantage of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you may be right. Considering the stacksizes on the table very few hands will call you, as they won't easily call off 35-50% of their stack.

Still, I'd rather push with something like a SC from this spot than any ace or king. In MP or later I'd say definately push. Here: meh.

[Bakes]

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instinctually it feels like fold fold fold.

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[0evg0]

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Still, I'd rather push with something like a SC from this spot than any ace or king. In MP or later I'd say definately push. Here: meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

:rolls eyes:

[ChieftanMews]

[ QUOTE ]
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Still, I'd rather push with something like a SC from this spot than any ace or king. In MP or later I'd say definately push. Here: meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

:rolls eyes:

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously? Think about it. If you get called, you're almost always dominated by a better ace or better king. With SC's you are probably live. If you don't get called, then what's the difference?

I'm not saying push with 45s/56s, but I wouldn't mind pushing with hands like 9Ts, JTs and one gappers like T8s, J9s instead of A-rag.

Is my way of thinking not right here?

[LSgambler]

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instinctually it feels like fold fold fold.

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[THEOSU]

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Still, I'd rather push with something like a SC from this spot than any ace or king. In MP or later I'd say definately push. Here: meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

:rolls eyes:

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously? Think about it. If you get called, you're almost always dominated by a better ace or better king. With SC's you are probably live. If you don't get called, then what's the difference?

I'm not saying push with 45s/56s, but I wouldn't mind pushing with hands like 9Ts, JTs and one gappers like T8s, J9s instead of A-rag.

Is my way of thinking not right here?

[/ QUOTE ]

A9 does better against his calling range than T9s DUCY?

[gobboboy]

Fold/fold/fold.

[nath]

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Still, I'd rather push with something like a SC from this spot than any ace or king.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd rather have aces every hand.

[ASPoker8]

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Fold/fold/fold.

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[curtains]

fold the first two and the last one should be extremely close.

[Newt_Buggs]

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Fold/fold/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

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Still, I'd rather push with something like a SC from this spot than any ace or king. In MP or later I'd say definately push. Here: meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

:rolls eyes:

[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously? Think about it. If you get called, you're almost always dominated by a better ace or better king. With SC's you are probably live. If you don't get called, then what's the difference?

I'm not saying push with 45s/56s, but I wouldn't mind pushing with hands like 9Ts, JTs and one gappers like T8s, J9s instead of A-rag.

Is my way of thinking not right here?

[/ QUOTE ]

A9 does better against his calling range than T9s DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]


The earlier your position the stronger it is to have suited connectors instead of crap aces in these spots. This is usually the case if I'm remembering my research correctly and depends on calling ranges of course.

In late position it was more important because you have one of their calling cards. But in EP they will call more often with a pretty similar range, thus the fact that you are dominated comes into play more often.

So in a spot with like 10x from 3-4 off button, its generally better to have JTs or even 98s than something like A7o, if their calling ranges are the typical, AK-AT, lots of pairs , KQs, etc etc

However on the button its better to have A7o and this is also because their calling range tends to be looser so you may get weird calls that are beating JTs hands but losing to A7o.


Ok I did a garbage job of explaining that. Moral of story is that the guy who said that suited connnectors may be better than A9o here is probably correct, but would likely be wrong if we were on the cutoff or button.

[THEOSU]

blah, curtains, stop using reason and logic plz.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]

blah, curtains, stop using reason and logic plz.

[/ QUOTE ]


my bad u are all dumbies loloolololzzzzzzz 98s=nuts cuz str8 possibs and flush

[THEOSU]

ty curtains.

btw i'll be really angry if math gets involved.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
ty curtains.

btw i'll be really angry if math gets involved.

[/ QUOTE ]


math already involved in my original post. Ok I didn't post it but I referred to the results.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
ty curtains.

btw i'll be really angry if math gets involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.881% 27.29% 01.59% 426119892 24886362.00 { A9o }
Hand 1: 71.119% 69.53% 01.59% 1085728632 24886362.00 { 88+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+ }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.320% 32.03% 00.29% 193053492 1746668.00 { 98s }
Hand 1: 67.680% 67.39% 00.29% 406184180 1746668.00 { 88+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+ }


/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/ooo.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="white">
i'm just [censored] around, with an example to show suited connectors being better. i'm not implying that my ranges are correct. </font>

[curtains]

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ty curtains.

btw i'll be really angry if math gets involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.881% 27.29% 01.59% 426119892 24886362.00 { A9o }
Hand 1: 71.119% 69.53% 01.59% 1085728632 24886362.00 { 88+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+ }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.320% 32.03% 00.29% 193053492 1746668.00 { 98s }
Hand 1: 67.680% 67.39% 00.29% 406184180 1746668.00 { 88+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+ }


/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/ooo.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<font color="white">
i'm just [censored] around, with an example to show suited connectors being better. i'm not implying that my ranges are correct. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes entire point is that you will be called less often because you hold an ace and so even though your equity is worse it's better to have an ace. Most ranges facing 10x button and cutoff raises favor the ace hand, and most ranges facing the 10x hijack and further favor the suited connectors.

[Exitonly]

yea i agree, i just wanted to post some kind of numbers to poke at osu

[THEOSU]

/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ZJ123]

Fold them all i thinkk

[ChieftanMews]

Thanks for explaining my point more thoroughly curtains.

I understand nath's point though, saying that you may not even get a 'good' hand like a SC in that position. I'd say it also depends on the table dynamics. If it's a generally LAGgy table, you may want to push w/ A9 there, where as it's a TAGgy table you may not want to push w/ A9.

[curtains]

Mathematically A9o is probably a fold. It's about break even if they can see your cards and call with all better hands (which they won't do), but this assumes that no one is overcalling ever.

Because you are in early position its quite plausible to get called by JJ and AK or AQ, which is a huge disaster, and probably means you need slightly less to make a simple allin profitable.

On the flip side people are going to fold very small pairs and hands like ATo. So I'm not sure really, but I'd probably fold. In any case I'm sure its quite close.

[Bonified]

M4 right ? 73s with 4 players behind you is close. J8 with 5 I would let go. A9 with 6 is also very close.

The close ones are close enough for me to use my "tie-breaker" which is how many pots are being opened in front of you. If it's more than usual, I'd shove in either situation.

Caveat : the 73s hand is very dependent on your current image, while A9 isn't really.

[shaundeeb]

I fold first 2 and always shove the last one it's like half the stack of others. So I think they fold AJ if they aren't in a blind.

[FGators]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I push all 3 but I think on balance I fold the first two mostly but not the third

Also I think anyone who uses the phrase "wait for a better spot" should not post in the forum. A better spot doesn't always come. The question is if, all things considered, this spot is good enough. Even if you want to wait for a better spot, you might need the chips you'd get from THIS spot to take full advantage of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a problem with waiting too long in tournaments but if we get called here by 88+ our tournament is over if we have 7 high. Its not like we are Red Zone short here so I think all 3 of these are folds...

Still Im not sure but I think "waiting for a better spot" is how I'd treat a hand like 37 with our 5400 stack size in hand 1. If we called we are out anyway..Id rather fold to 3500 and the blinds 400/800 and get it in with JJ and have a great chance of doubling up then pushing with 37 and getting called by QQ.

Scold me now...

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
if we get called here by 88+ our tournament is over if we have 7 high.

[/ QUOTE ]
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.774% 26.51% 00.27% 37220217 372647.50 { 7h3h }
Hand 1: 73.226% 72.96% 00.27% 102443416 372647.50 { 88+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+}

also, how is 9xBB not "red zone short"?

[Clayton]

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Still, I'd rather push with something like a SC from this spot than any ace or king. In MP or later I'd say definately push. Here: meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

:rolls eyes:

[/ QUOTE ]

knock off the douchery plz kthx

people need to be more like curtains

[KingDan]

Curtains,

A few months ago I've played with some numbers on resteals. I decided that I would rather resteal against an aggro button with A7o than TJs. For discussion lets say 20bb.

Agree/disagree

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
Curtains,

A few months ago I've played with some numbers on resteals. I decided that I would rather resteal against an aggro button with A7o than TJs. For discussion lets say 20bb.

Agree/disagree

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you find a calling range where A7o has better equity than JTs? At 20BB I think it would be very difficult/nearly impossible.

And I think the A9 is definitely a +EV shove. It is very close as curtains mentioned.

[KingDan]

bah meant TJo but rather have a7o than like 56s

[djk123]

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if we get called here by 88+ our tournament is over if we have 7 high.

[/ QUOTE ]
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.774% 26.51% 00.27% 37220217 372647.50 { 7h3h }
Hand 1: 73.226% 72.96% 00.27% 102443416 372647.50 { 88+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+}

also, how is 9xBB not "red zone short"?

[/ QUOTE ]

That calling range is way too tight though. I folded the first two, and pushed the third one. I think it's really close and basically the border line as I'd def shove AT and fold A8.

Oh and I agree Curtains' posts are awesome.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Curtains,

A few months ago I've played with some numbers on resteals. I decided that I would rather resteal against an aggro button with A7o than TJs. For discussion lets say 20bb.

Agree/disagree

[/ QUOTE ]


I dunno would have to think about it some. It's always nice to have an ace because you are never drawing really really slim unless they have AA. Offhand I'd definitely prefer JTs, but I only have a few minutes now so will try to go into deeper detail later /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
bah meant TJo but rather have a7o than like 56s

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh, yes you are probably correct. 65s is not a good hand. A7o almost always has some decent chance around 25-30% and very occasionally ahead when they make weird calls with KQs type hands (and they definitely do this sometimes). Meanwhile their range has changed so that they are less likely to hold an ace.

65s meanwhile is often completely crushed against overpairs, but of course has the advantage of being more reasonable against overcards. But yea you are almost certainly correct that A7o is better than 65s in such a spot, when dealing with a typical aggressive button's range.

[KingDan]

Sorry for being unclear, was watching House while posting.

MEant to say TJs(generally )&gt;A7o&gt;Tjo&gt;56s

[Ssmoimo]

There is no pushbotting with an M of about 7.5!

FOLD FOLD FOLD!

[TheNewf]

I sometimes push the 73s if table conditions are right. I'm pretty sure it's clearly the best of the 3.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes push the 73s if table conditions are right. I'm pretty sure it's clearly the best of the 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet A9o is the best. It's almost ok if your hand is face up.

[TheNewf]

I'm not worried about people calling perfectly. In general people call waaaaay too tight in these situations and I'm pretty sure having 2 less people to worry about waking up with a monster is worth a lot more than the extra 2% equity the times you're called. The only thing A9 has going for it is people will give that super extra respect because it's from EP.