T9s in any position?

[phydaux]

I was reviewing my SSH hand charts just now, and I saw something that shocked me.

According to the charts if all I have is suited connectors and no overcards, then I should fold to a raise pre-flop regardless of position.

Do we all agree? Is this true?

If this is true, then it would account for a LARGE portion of my leaks.

[nooob]

i wouldn't think it would be bad cold-call if EVERYBODY cold-called after a UTG raise...

but that's just my initial thought.. anybody got the math to prove it?

[SoCalPat]

[ QUOTE ]
According to the charts if all I have is suited connectors and no overcards, then I should fold to a raise pre-flop regardless of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you defining overcards here? By definition, you don't know if you have overcards or not until after the flop, not before it.

By what you're saying, if the CO open-raises, then I should fold KQs? Not in this lifetime or any other, short of the other player showing me his cards and turning up queens or better.

Here's another example: I have T9s in the BB. It's open-raised by UTG and the entire table cold-calls two bets. Action to me, and I'm getting 18-1 to close the betting. I'm 8-1 to flop a flush draw, and when I factor in the straight draw possibilities as well, it's probably closer to 5-1 to catch a flop that gives me a monster drawing hand.

Do you really think folding here could possibly be right?

[nooob]

[/ QUOTE ] Here's another example: I have T9s in the BB. It's open-raised by UTG and the entire table cold-calls two bets. Action to me, and I'm getting 18-1 to close the betting. I'm 8-1 to flop a flush draw, and when I factor in the straight draw possibilities as well, it's probably closer to 5-1 to catch a flop that gives me a monster drawing hand.

Do you really think folding here could possibly be right?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what i meant...

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
How are you defining overcards here? By definition, you don't know if you have overcards or not until after the flop, not before it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, by overcards I ment face cards.

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's another example: I have T9s in the BB. It's open-raised by UTG and the entire table cold-calls two bets. Action to me, and I'm getting 18-1 to close the betting. I'm 8-1 to flop a flush draw, and when I factor in the straight draw possibilities as well, it's probably closer to 5-1 to catch a flop that gives me a monster drawing hand.

Do you really think folding here could possibly be right?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what i meant...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, fine. One small bet to see if you flop a made flush.

And if the flop does come up all of your suit, and there is still lots of action? You're paying off anyone with JXs or higher. And if the Turn or the River comes one of the same suit, and there's still action, then you are probably beat.

Anyway, now let's use an example that might actually happen...

You're in the BB with T9s. UTG bets. The table folds around. Button and SB call.

Call or fold?

What if just the SB called?

What if CO, Button and SB called?

[Jamougha]

Sure. You are behind, and you don't have the right pot odds to cold-call against any sane range. I would play in the BB, but nowhere else. I'm also open folding in EP with T9s.

[car ramrod]

quit using charts.

[SoCalPat]

[ QUOTE ]
You're in the BB with T9s. UTG bets. The table folds around. Button and SB call.
Call or fold?
What if just the SB called?
What if CO, Button and SB called?

[/ QUOTE ]

With three players cold-calling (the position of the other players is irrelevant here) and four total, I would play it, especially since I'm closing the betting. This also allows me to check-raise the PFR in the event of a favorable drawing flop and trap several players for additional bets.

If I flop a solid made hand (two pair or trips), I can use my lack of position to get the PFR to raise and thin the field.

In your other instances, I would probably fold.

[phydaux]

Pat,

That's about how I figure it. Four other players gives you correct pot equity to make the hand worth while. Sure you might be getting pot odds for a call, but with come hands you'd really like the pot to be as large as possible.

I just had no idea T9s and below were considered such weak hands.

[nooob]

[ QUOTE ]
quit using charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

gotta start somewhere.