Guy converts atheists to believers with his touch

[Taraz]

Derren Brown is an atheist and a skeptic, but he shows how he can turn non-believers into believers in a "higher power" quite easily using the power of suggestion. It's crazy stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI&mode=related&search=

EDIT: If it is somehow unclear, this is not God really talking to people. It's a guy showing you how susceptible people are to suggestion. I think it's cool and interesting.

[yukoncpa]

I’ve seen this sort of entertainment in bars before. They bring in a hypnotist, who seats a bunch of volunteers and then gives a suggestion. Few are susceptible, and those that are unsusceptible are asked to leave, as was seemingly done on your video. He then works with the remaining impressionable ones, until he finds some that under suggestion will do some pretty odd stuff.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
Derren Brown is an atheist and a skeptic, but he shows how he can turn non-believers into believers in a "higher power" quite easily using the power of suggestion. It's crazy stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI&mode=related&search=

[/ QUOTE ]

Taraz, everything you have posted and will post will inherently diminish in meaning as far as I am concerned. You aren't the only idiot who was born with a side of gullibility, but I'll do you a favor and I'll let you know that Derren Brown is nothing more than a Criss Angel sort of jackass who relies on camera tricks and actors for his tricks. Unless of course you think Criss Angel can really fly, then I stand corrected believe whatever you wish to believe.

However, if you really, really, really don't think Derren Brown is full of [censored] then watch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7688956389104405762

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Derren Brown is an atheist and a skeptic, but he shows how he can turn non-believers into believers in a "higher power" quite easily using the power of suggestion. It's crazy stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI&mode=related&search=

[/ QUOTE ]

Taraz, everything you have posted and will post will inherently diminish in meaning as far as I am concerned. You aren't the only idiot who was born with a side of gullibility, but I'll do you a favor and I'll let you know that Derren Brown is nothing more than a Criss Angel sort of jackass who relies on camera tricks and actors for his tricks. Unless of course you think Criss Angel can really fly, then I stand corrected believe whatever you wish to believe.

However, if you really, really, really don't think Derren Brown is full of [censored] then watch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7688956389104405762

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously dude, wtf are you talking about. I KNOW IT'S FAKE. It freaking says it in the description of the video!!! I said, "he's an atheist and a skeptic" in my OP. I don't know what else I should have said.

These aren't camera tricks. They are hypnosis tricks. I studyed psychology in college and I'm going to get my PhD in psychology/neuroscience. I find these things fascinating and I thought some might think so too.

Wow.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]


EDIT: If it is somehow unclear, this is not God really talking to people. It's a guy showing you how susceptible people are to suggestion. I think it's cool and interesting.


[/ QUOTE ]

What's so cool and interesting about some jackass who uses actors and camera tricks to achieve a desired effect?

Derren Brown is phony, quit being dumb. There's nothing interesting about this, at all. Please see the zombie video.

Also please clarify, you said you know it's fake but at the same time say it's interesting or comment on it? If it's fake, it's fake.

The guy pays stooges to do these acts and they are in on it, as someone comments on his blog that his bandpartner and roommate was hired for one of these segments.

[JussiUt]

That was an interesting video so thanks for that. Hypnosis is usually fascinating. There's of course a chance that the video was all hoax but since hypnosis has been studied pretty intensely I don't see how one could declare that event as impossible.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
Taraz, everything you have posted and will post will inherently diminish in meaning as far as I am concerned. You aren't the only idiot who was born with a side of gullibility, but I'll do you a favor and I'll let you know that Derren Brown is nothing more than a Criss Angel sort of jackass who relies on camera tricks and actors for his tricks. Unless of course you think Criss Angel can really fly, then I stand corrected believe whatever you wish to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever been to a live hypnosis show? If not, I suggest you go. We had a guy do a regular gig for large corporate groups at a resort I worked at, where the people going up on stage where known to the audience and cheered on. It's well known that some people are susceptible to this kind of suggestion. Actors not required.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
That was an interesting video so thanks for that. Hypnosis is usually fascinating. There's of course a chance that the video was all hoax but since hypnosis has been studied pretty intensely I don't see how one could declare that event as impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. This guy is credible, he makes a video game that can put people to sleep (standing up) by flashing a white light.

Nevermind the fact that people can't sleep standing up, and if someone were to fall asleep upright they would fall on their ass (or face).

Or the fact that the subject's friends have no objections to him basically being kidnapped and strolled away.

Or the fact that the guy isn't even shooting the gun when you watch the video while he's playing the game, or the fact that the zombies all have squids to make it look like they are getting hit when in fact the gun is firing no projectile in the real life version.

IT'S ALL [censored].

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taraz, everything you have posted and will post will inherently diminish in meaning as far as I am concerned. You aren't the only idiot who was born with a side of gullibility, but I'll do you a favor and I'll let you know that Derren Brown is nothing more than a Criss Angel sort of jackass who relies on camera tricks and actors for his tricks. Unless of course you think Criss Angel can really fly, then I stand corrected believe whatever you wish to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever been to a live hypnosis show? If not, I suggest you go. We had a guy do a regular gig for large corporate groups at a resort I worked at, where the people going up on stage where known to the audience and cheered on. It's well known that some people are susceptible to this kind of suggestion. Actors not required.

[/ QUOTE ]

People under hypnosis comment that they are aware what they are doing but only go along with the guise because they don't want to ruin it.

Whether or not it's authentic isn't the question, as this guy is a fraud. Anything he does should automatically be discounted as nothing more than an act.

Btw, this isn't hypnosis buddy.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever been to a live hypnosis show? If not, I suggest you go. We had a guy do a regular gig for large corporate groups at a resort I worked at, where the people going up on stage where known to the audience and cheered on. It's well known that some people are susceptible to this kind of suggestion. Actors not required.



[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I’m no psychiatrist, but I invented a way of hypnotizing people that works every time for me and nobody is aware of what they are doing.

At a poker table, when you get bored, slowly raise your flat hand towards the back of your neighbors head. If he looks at you annoyingly, all the better. Ask him to be still. Then slap the back of his neck right below the hairline. Then pretend like you’re grabbing something small on his neck between your thumb and forefinger. Then examine it in such a way that no one can see what you are looking at, then flick it and tell the table that it was a flea. Now, you don’t want to embarrass your neighbor and cause him to give any explanation, so you immediately look intently at the area right in front of your chips and smash it and do the same thing. Flick it away, saying that the table must have fleas.

Now, every time I’ve been bored enough to do this, I get the same results. Watch what the players do in the next half hour. They will all be furiously scratching their hair.

[Taraz]

Woolygimp,

You are uninformed. Hypnosis is very, very real. Not everybody is hypnotizable, but a sizable percentage of the population is. Most people can't be made to quack like a duck, but you can make their arms feel heavy or you can make them hyper-relaxed.

You really think that in all these professional hypnotists, EVERYONE is just going along with it? That is pretty ridiculous.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was an interesting video so thanks for that. Hypnosis is usually fascinating. There's of course a chance that the video was all hoax but since hypnosis has been studied pretty intensely I don't see how one could declare that event as impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. This guy is credible, he makes a video game that can put people to sleep (standing up) by flashing a white light.

Nevermind the fact that people can't sleep standing up, and if someone were to fall asleep upright they would fall on their ass (or face).

Or the fact that the subject's friends have no objections to him basically being kidnapped and strolled away.

Or the fact that the guy isn't even shooting the gun when you watch the video while he's playing the game, or the fact that the zombies all have squids to make it look like they are getting hit when in fact the gun is firing no projectile in the real life version.

IT'S ALL [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

it wasn't a real gun?? no way!!!!

seriously though, if you're going to as.shole up a thread at least try to avoid looking stupid at the same time.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
Woolygimp,

You are uninformed. Hypnosis is very, very real. Not everybody is hypnotizable, but a sizable percentage of the population is. Most people can't be made to quack like a duck, but you can make their arms feel heavy or you can make them hyper-relaxed.

You really think that in all these professional hypnotists, EVERYONE is just going along with it? That is pretty ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. You guys are [censored] idiots and you have no idea what you are talking about. As a general rule of thumb, only 20% of people in stage hypnotist shows can be hypnotized.

Again whether or not hypnotism works is irrelevant. The guy is a fraud with a capital [censored] f. I'm being hostile because dumb people piss me off...

[Taraz]

Now I'm just riled, so I'm going to explain how this trick was done and take all the fun out of it.

First of all, the people who came did so because they saw an add in the paper for a "spiritual show" of some kind. That's a pretty self-selecting group. Then, halfway through, people left or were asked to leave if they were uncomfortable or didn't believe. The group that was left wanted to believe. That is really important for hypnosis.

There are dim lights in the room and this guy has a pretty calm voice.

Most hypnotists are trained and can tell by talking to people and looking at them that they are in a suggestive state.

For "fall back inductions" you have people put their feet together because that gets them off-balance to start with. Then you tell people to close there eyes which creates even more imbalance. Then you slowly talk to them and make them visualize pressure on their chest/head/etc. Voila! They fall.

The only "camera tricks" involved would include some kind of video editing to cut out some of his talking and relaxation/waiting time.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

Whatever. You guys are [censored] idiots and you have no idea what you are talking about. As a general rule of thumb, only 20% of people in stage hypnotist shows can be hypnotized.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

People under hypnosis comment that they are aware what they are doing but only go along with the guise because they don't want to ruin it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooo, which one is it?

I don't remember having any beef with you before, but I'm pretty annoyed that you thoroughly derailed my thread because you don't like Derren Brown.

I was planning on circling this back and talking about pentecostals and preachers who use these kinds of tricks to make people "feel the holy spirit" and whatnot, but now people are going to open up the thread and say, "this is gay" and move on.

Thanks. I appreciate it. [censored]

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Sooo, which one is it?

I don't remember having any beef with you before, but I'm pretty annoyed that you thoroughly derailed my thread because you don't like Derren Brown.

I was planning on circling this back and talking about pentecostals and preachers who use these kinds of tricks to make people "feel the holy spirit" and whatnot, but now people are going to open up the thread and say, "this is gay" and move on.

Thanks. I appreciate it. [censored]



[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Taraz, please do elaborate on your very interesting thread. I figured you might be heading someplace with it. Wooly must not be able to hold his alcohol, but that's no reason to spoil it for the rest of us.

[Woolygimp]

If Taraz wants to double back and lay blame on preachers and what not, then I suggest he find a different gold standard.

Basing assumptions and theories off something that is transparent is flawed, and I'd give you more credit if you found a real hypnotist and then said what you wanted to say.

If Darren Brown faked one act, there's no reason he didn't fake them all.

See:

http://botherer.cream.org/?p=186

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
If Taraz wants to double back and lay blame on preachers and what not, then I suggest he find a different gold standard.

Basing assumptions and theories off something that is transparent is flawed, and I'd give you more credit if you found a real hypnotist and then said what you wanted to say.

If Darren Brown faked one act, there's no reason he didn't fake them all.

See:

http://botherer.cream.org/?p=186

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

[/ QUOTE ]


So he's a magician who dabbles in hypnosis and has a stage persona of someone with mind control. And?

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sooo, which one is it?

I don't remember having any beef with you before, but I'm pretty annoyed that you thoroughly derailed my thread because you don't like Derren Brown.

I was planning on circling this back and talking about pentecostals and preachers who use these kinds of tricks to make people "feel the holy spirit" and whatnot, but now people are going to open up the thread and say, "this is gay" and move on.

Thanks. I appreciate it. [censored]



[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Taraz, please do elaborate on your very interesting thread. I figured you might be heading someplace with it. Wooly must not be able to hold his alcohol, but that's no reason to spoil it for the rest of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm pretty done with this at the moment. Maybe I'll come back to it on another day or something. I'm kind of pissed so I don't really feel like going into it right now.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
was planning on circling this back and talking about pentecostals and preachers who use these kinds of tricks to make people "feel the holy spirit" and whatnot, but now people are going to open up the thread and say, "this is gay" and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course that's what Woolygimp is afraid of and why he's so upset.

I don't know if the Young Lady was acting, or hypnotized, or hypno-acting. But assuming this was a genuine experience for her - no acting involved - I don't see what's so shocking about the implications. In both her case or the pentecostal cases you can interpret them either as psychological or spriritual. I don't see that the Guy being a fake really matters. It's the inner experience of the young lady that matters. She was evidently ready to have the experience. How it relates to her personal life experiences is more to the point than what set if off. Some people get set-off by being thrown in a fox hole. Is it only suppose to happen in "correct" ways?

Even in the Bible, when the lady touched Jesus and exclaimed she was healed Jesus said, "It is your faith that healed you". Maybe he was trying to tell us something about this kind of stuff.

PairTheBoard

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Even in the Bible, when the lady touched Jesus and exclaimed she was healed Jesus said, "It is your faith that healed you". Maybe he was trying to tell us something about this kind of stuff.

PairTheBoard



[/ QUOTE ] Yes, It is "your faith that healed you", I agree with your analysis PTB - See my flea experiment above.

[RoundGuy]

Other posts of yours had me believing you were somewhat of an idiot. This thread takes it to a whole new level. Wow. Just....wow.

[Taraz]

I thought I'd come back to this thread since I still find it interesting. I never really made the connection between hypnosis and megachurch preachers laying their hands on believers and having them feel the holy spirit. It's really fascinating to me on several levels. It seems insanely dangerous since people are in a hyper-suggestible state and you can make them say, do, and believe a lot of things if you aren't honest about what is going on.

As a note, I'm not claiming that all religious experience is akin to hypnosis. I'm only talking about these public displays where someone is brought up to the front and made to faint or whatever.

[vhawk01]

I've read a few things on this connection in the past, can't remember anything specifically, but I seem to recall mention of the conditions in some of these churches being very suitable to inducing this type of state, i.e. rhythmical, wordless music, lots of people in close proximity, warm temperatures.

I thought it was interesting.

[godBoy]

While Woolygimp's rebuttal isn't my style, I think he's shown that this video can't be used to support a single thing.

I'd encourage you to investigate your hypothesis further, perhaps you try reenact the video for real and let us know what you turn up.

I'm not willing to throw your idea out simply because the guy is clearly a fraud, and the video itself has no merit. It's possible, though I'm surprised you're so willing to come to your conclusions given there's not really any evidence in yet.
I actually have just been on a Jury, When we first met in the room behind the court before hearing 1 scrap of evidence one of the juror's joked 'Is he Guilty or Not Guilty?'.

I'll accept it if there's good reason to, but it seems that you're on one side of the argument from the outset. I'd suggest this isn't a fair place to begin investigation.

[vhawk01]

What does it mean when you say he is 'clearly a fraud?' He seems to be always doing exactly what he says he is doing, he just isn't doing what it looks like he is doing.

[godBoy]

Have you seen the Zombie video that Woolygimp posted?

I don't accept for a second that that person was unaware of what was going on.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen the Zombie video that Woolygimp posted?

I don't accept for a second that that person was unaware of what was going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. I have no intention of looking at anything that Wooly posts.

However, I will take a look at it in order to have a discussion with you, since you are (as far as I can tell) an honest, intelligent person who is actually interested in legitimate discussion.

[HP]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen the Zombie video that Woolygimp posted?

I don't accept for a second that that person was unaware of what was going on.

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel similarly

I still think there's a chance OP's vid was genuine hypnosis though, somewhere between impossible and certainly

I'll go ahead and throw out 25% chance of genuine hypnosis

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you seen the Zombie video that Woolygimp posted?

I don't accept for a second that that person was unaware of what was going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. I have no intention of looking at anything that Wooly posts.

However, I will take a look at it in order to have a discussion with you, since you are (as far as I can tell) an honest, intelligent person who is actually interested in legitimate discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, watched it. No idea if thats legit or not, but simply claiming its bogus doesn't seem like much of a strategy. I've seen a few other things that Brown has done, and the general theme seems to be demonstrating the limitations and exploitability of human consciousness, as well as exposing a lot of specific cons and frauds. With that in mind, it doesn't make much sense that this would just be a complete mockup. Whats the point? It would destroy any credibility he has, prevent him from making any important points in the future...and for what? It just seems to go entirely against what I understand his purpose to be with all this stuff.

For instance, he did a video where he played a whole bunch of chess games simulataneously, all against very good players. He managed to win or draw about half of them. This seemed amazing, but then people exposed him for being a 'fraud' once they found out that he did this using a very simple trick that wasn't immediately obvious. But the whole point of the exercise was that he was using a TRICK to accomplish this seemingly amazing feat, and that we need to be more skeptical.

[godBoy]

Hmmm, i'm not willing to give it any credibility what-so-ever.

There's another video in exactly the same style that is 'clearly a fraud' - Why are you willing to accept 75% of this video?

[ QUOTE ]
somewhere between impossible and certainly

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's hard to argue with /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, i'm not willing to give it any credibility what-so-ever.

There's another video in exactly the same style that is 'clearly a fraud' - Why are you willing to accept 75% of this video?

[ QUOTE ]
somewhere between impossible and certainly

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's hard to argue with /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Which video is that?

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, watched it. No idea if thats legit or not, but simply claiming its bogus doesn't seem like much of a strategy. I've seen a few other things that Brown has done, and the general theme seems to be demonstrating the limitations and exploitability of human consciousness, as well as exposing a lot of specific cons and frauds. With that in mind, it doesn't make much sense that this would just be a complete mockup. Whats the point? It would destroy any credibility he has, prevent him from making any important points in the future...and for what? It just seems to go entirely against what I understand his purpose to be with all this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I haven't seen anything else that this guy has produced so perhaps I shouldn't dismiss is completely out of hand. But hey, you're the skeptic here right?
But you are right in saying that if so - it would absolutely destroy his credibility - which is my point.
There is so much in that video that is just 'not right', I can easily imagine a cop watching it and noticing that that's just not how humans behave.

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, he did a video where he played a whole bunch of chess games simulataneously, all against very good players. He managed to win or draw about half of them. This seemed amazing, but then people exposed him for being a 'fraud' once they found out that he did this using a very simple trick that wasn't immediately obvious. But the whole point of the exercise was that he was using a TRICK to accomplish this seemingly amazing feat, and that we need to be more skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps the zombie video was just another test - to see who would believe a completely fallacious video? Who knows..

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Which video is that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Neither video constitutes one scrap of evidence IMO.

Edit: Though I don't have any problem with Taraz wanting to explore the idea, there's nothing wrong with research, as long as you realise that the video doesn't count as evidence.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which video is that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Neither video constitutes one scrap of evidence IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said there was another video that was clearly a fraud. I'm asking which one that was? Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying. I most certainly understand the burden of proof is not on you, here, but do you have any actual evidence or reason to believe that any of his acts are out-and-out frauds? I would imagine it would be difficult to consistently use plants or shills and never have it come out, but it isn't impossible.

[godBoy]

The zombie video was the one that I consider to be a complete fraud. Which in turn diminishes the other video to nothing..

I'll go through both videos and make notes of everything that doesn't 'seem right' to me..

[Taraz]

I've seen hypnosis work before and I'm sure many other people have seen it as well. In fact, one of my psychology classes involved a whole class hypnosis thing that was pretty interesting. I can't say that I was made to collapse or anything, but I was relaxed as hell and it felt pretty good.

It doesn't really matter if this specific instance was true or not. It also doesn't matter if the people in the video believed it was God or not. It is a good example of how hypnosis actually can work and I never really made the connection before. What matters is that many of these techniques are actually used by some preachers.

As I stated before, I don't think that these events encapsulate all of religious experience. But considering the fact that many of these super-churches are advocating some ridiculous things, I think it is worth looking into.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
The zombie video was the one that I consider to be a complete fraud. Which in turn diminishes the other video to nothing..

I'll go through both videos and make notes of everything that doesn't 'seem right' to me..

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but you are just saying its a complete fraud. Its not like its been agreed upon by all of us, or officially exposed as a fraud. In other words, you seem to be using it as if it were some stipulated fact, and then using that as evidence against another video. It may very well be a fraud, but "stuff doesn't seem right" isn't exactly conclusive.

[Taraz]

Wow, I just watched that zombie video. Soooo fake. I've seen a few Derren Brown videos and the other ones are at least semi-plausible.

Doesn't really impact my point much though.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I just watched that zombie video. Soooo fake. I've seen a few Derren Brown videos and the other ones are at least semi-plausible.

Doesn't really impact my point much though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think it does impact your point. If we are all going to agree that he sometimes just uses plants and shills to make for shocking videos, then who the heck cares about your OP? Preachers use these same tactics? Oh well, they only work on actors who are paid to demonstrate those things. You might be able to find other examples or studies of people who legitimately studies the suggestive impacts of those tactics, but showing Brown doing it becomes pretty pointless.

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
The zombie video was the one that I consider to be a complete fraud. Which in turn diminishes the other video to nothing..

I'll go through both videos and make notes of everything that doesn't 'seem right' to me..

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, but you are just saying its a complete fraud. Its not like its been agreed upon by all of us, or officially exposed as a fraud. In other words, you seem to be using it as if it were some stipulated fact, and then using that as evidence against another video. It may very well be a fraud, but "stuff doesn't seem right" isn't exactly conclusive.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm shocked you're taking this position vhawk, your the skeptic, what's going on?

If the zombie video is a fraud - as you said - it completely destroys his credibility.

Here's some brief points from the zombie video:
The response of his friends when he initially ‘blanks out’
The response of his friends when a guy with black gloves catches him and starts dragging him outside the pub.
His friends helping push him on the hospital stretcher across the road, ever so calmly.
The friends turn the stretcher in the right directions before he tells them where they are going.
The guy standing upright and gripping the gun.
Everything the guy does when he is awake in the zombie house, everything.
The guy lets Derren come up and grab him by his head, then he blanks out again.
The response of the guy when he ‘comes to’

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think it does impact your point. If we are all going to agree that he sometimes just uses plants and shills to make for shocking videos, then who the heck cares about your OP? Preachers use these same tactics? Oh well, they only work on actors who are paid to demonstrate those things. You might be able to find other examples or studies of people who legitimately studies the suggestive impacts of those tactics, but showing Brown doing it becomes pretty pointless.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't impact my point if you're familiar with hypnosis that is. I'll try to look for some more concrete info on the subject of hypnosis in general.

I agree that the video in the OP is hugely diminished in it's credibility. I don't think it really impacts the overall issue of whether or not certain evangelicals use hypnotic techniques though. The video can be seen as more of an example rather than an actual event.

[Woolygimp]

Taraz, maybe I went a little overboard earlier in the thread and I apologize for that but when forming a hypothesis you should have evidence that solidifies your point.

From what I know about hypnosis, it absolutely will not work on people who do not want to 'go along'. You could argue that people inside a church wouldn't be there unless they were part of this select group of people, with the mindset that they won't resist.

I'd like to add that part of the reason I overreacted was because this post wasn't the first time I heard Darren Brown's name mentioned. A friend that I assumed wasn't completely gullible linked me several of his videos. I was a little skeptical, and then did some research and came to the conclusion that the guy was a fraud.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
Taraz, maybe I went a little overboard earlier in the thread and I apologize for that but when forming a hypothesis you should have evidence that solidifies your point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apology accepted. I had just heard of Derren Brown an hour or so before posting my OP when I was browsing on YouTube. It just got me thinking about hypnosis in a religious context. I'll concede that the video I used was a poor choice, but it got the discussion started.

[ QUOTE ]

From what I know about hypnosis, it absolutely will not work on people who do not want to 'go along'. You could argue that people inside a church wouldn't be there unless they were part of this select group of people, with the mindset that they won't resist.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. I think that group of people would be pretty susceptible to hypnotic suggestion. However, I've emphasized many times in this thread that I don't think this encapsulates all, or even most, of religious experience.

[ QUOTE ]

I'd like to add that part of the reason I overreacted was because this post wasn't the first time I heard Darren Brown's name mentioned. A friend that I assumed wasn't completely gullible linked me several of his videos. I was a little skeptical, and then did some research and came to the conclusion that the guy was a fraud.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on what you mean by fraud. I think my description of him as a magician who has a certain stage persona is pretty accurate. Now that I've done a little research and seen a few more videos, he definitely tries to make himself look a lot cooler than he really is.

[Taraz]

This is the official position on hypnosis from the American Psychological Association:

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Hypnosis is a procedure during which a health professional or researcher suggests that a client, patient, or subject experience changes in sensations, perceptions, thoughts, or behavior. The hypnotic context is generally established by an induction procedure. Although there are many different hypnotic inductions, most include suggestions for relaxation, calmness, and well-being. Instructions to imagine or think about pleasant experiences are also commonly included in hypnotic inductions. People respond to hypnosis in different ways. Some describe hypnosis as a normal state of focused attention, in which they feel very calm and relaxed. Regardless of how and to what degree they respond, most people describe the experience as very pleasant.

Some people are very responsive to hypnotic suggestions and others are less responsive. A person's ability to experience hypnotic suggestions can be inhibited by fears and concerns arising from some common misconceptions. Contrary to some depictions of hypnosis in books, movies or television, people who have been hypnotized do not lose control over their behavior. They typically remain aware of who they are and where they are, and unless amnesia has been specifically suggested, they usually remember what transpired during hypnosis. Hypnosis makes it easier for people to experience suggestions, but it does not force them to have these experiences.

Hypnosis is not a type of therapy, like psychoanalysis or behavior therapy. Instead, it is a procedure that can be used to facilitate therapy. It is the opinion of the authors of this statement that because it is not a treatment in and of itself, training in hypnosis is not sufficient for the conduct of therapy; rather, clinical hypnosis should be used only by properly trained and credentialed health care professionals (e.g., licensed clinical psychologists), who have also been trained in the clinical use of hypnosis and are working within the areas of their professional expertise.

Hypnosis has been used in the treatment of pain, depression, anxiety, stress, habit disorders, and many other psychological and medical problems. However, it may not be useful for all psychological problems or for all patients or clients. Again, it is the opinion of the authors of this statement that the decision to use hypnosis as an adjunct to treatment can only be made in consultation with a qualified health care provider who has been trained in the use and limitations of clinical hypnosis. In addition to its use in clinical settings, hypnosis is used in research, with the goal of learning more about the nature of hypnosis itself, as well as its impact on sensation, perception, learning, memory, and physiology. Researchers also study the value of hypnosis in the treatment of physical and psychological problems.

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[vhawk01]

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The zombie video was the one that I consider to be a complete fraud. Which in turn diminishes the other video to nothing..

I'll go through both videos and make notes of everything that doesn't 'seem right' to me..

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Ok, but you are just saying its a complete fraud. Its not like its been agreed upon by all of us, or officially exposed as a fraud. In other words, you seem to be using it as if it were some stipulated fact, and then using that as evidence against another video. It may very well be a fraud, but "stuff doesn't seem right" isn't exactly conclusive.

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I'm shocked you're taking this position vhawk, your the skeptic, what's going on?

If the zombie video is a fraud - as you said - it completely destroys his credibility.

Here's some brief points from the zombie video:
The response of his friends when he initially ‘blanks out’
The response of his friends when a guy with black gloves catches him and starts dragging him outside the pub.
His friends helping push him on the hospital stretcher across the road, ever so calmly.
The friends turn the stretcher in the right directions before he tells them where they are going.
The guy standing upright and gripping the gun.
Everything the guy does when he is awake in the zombie house, everything.
The guy lets Derren come up and grab him by his head, then he blanks out again.
The response of the guy when he ‘comes to’

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Yep, I'm the skeptic, and while I am certainly skeptical of his claims, what I'm being skeptical of HERE is the 'conspiracy theory' that he is using shills or actors. I'm also skeptical of the implicit claim he is making in that video, specifically that hypnosis is that powerful, etc. However, my skepticism of one claim does not lend credibility to the second claim, and I just find it hard to believe he would take the risk of just filming an actor doing a bunch of stupid crap and then passing it off as legit.

A little further googling of Brown makes me less confident in my initial objection, though. There seems to be a lot of doubt about his methods in other tricks besides just this one. A little disappointing to me, I'll admit, because I've enjoyed the few things I've seen him do, things which were very much legit in what they were trying to accomplish (i.e. a video where he utilizes cold-reading techniques to pretend to be and expose mediums, and the aforementioned chess trick).

[Alex-db]

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From what I know about hypnosis, it absolutely will not work on people who do not want to 'go along'. You could argue that people inside a church wouldn't be there unless they were part of this select group of people, with the mindset that they won't resist.

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This is true. I think that group of people would be pretty susceptible to hypnotic suggestion. However, I've emphasized many times in this thread that I don't think this encapsulates all, or even most, of religious experience.

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That is not strictly true. Hypnotic language and NLP can sometimes create physical and psychological reactions in people who aren't even aware or who try actively to resist. We also shouldn't assume 'hypnosis' to be the thing with the formal watch-swinging trance induction. (DB often uses interupt inductions like breaking a handshake, its not witchcraft, its just putting people in an unusual situation so they are more likely to do what you say (that's hypnosis!).

For example...

if I describe you sitting there and looking at this screen and reading this text, and as you sit there imagine biting hard into a large lemon, and feeling the sour juice on your tongue and the strong bitter sweet taste making your mouth start to water.

... most people who read that will find there mouth start to water whether they want it too or not. Its a physical response to slightly hypnotic wording. And if my aim was to get people relaxed and suggestable, rather than to make them salivate, NLP is used in a similar way.

The most obvious, simple example of controlling thought even with resistance from the subject is "don't think of blue", which has to make anyone who understood the sentence think about what you wanted them too (blue).

[Taraz]

I'm not completely sold on NLP techniques. I can't imagine that they would be so effective as to cause someone to faint or fall down. Pattern interrupts are amusing, but not much more than that it seems like. I dunno, I haven't read all that much about it, do you have any good links?

For traditional hypnosis, the subject must indeed be a willing participant. (Traditional hypnosis doesn't need to involve a swinging pendulum of any sort.)

[HP]

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The zombie video was the one that I consider to be a complete fraud. Which in turn diminishes the other video to nothing..

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yeah I don't quite agree with diminishing it to nothing

it's possible he faked the zombie vid but did the hypno for real

[PairTheBoard]

Someone asked for a link to NPL info. This looks like a decent one,

NPL Website (http://www.whitedovebooks.co.uk/nlp/nlp.htm)
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Affirmations - The Linguistic Technique

Making use of Affirmations means taking some particular message, such as "I am Confident!" and saying it over and over again, day after day, several times per day - at least three times per day - repeating the phrase endlessly to yourself.

What eventually happens is that it eventually sinks down into your sub-conscious mind and finally your inner self accepts that you are confident. When that happens your life will begin to change because confident people are simply people who believe they are confident. You will begin to act confidently and you will acquire the confidence you seek.

Hypnosis - The Original NLP Technique

Using hypnosis effectively bypasses the conscious mind with your message. You get yourself into a nice relaxed state and the message you want to internalize is spoken directly to your sub-conscious mind. The idea is basically the same as with affirmations but it can be a quicker method of accomplishing what you want.

Natural Programming - NLP the Easy Way

By carefully vetting and selecting the movies you watch it is possible to engage in some Natural Programming of your own; it's a kind-of NLP but by taking the easy route! You can ensure you pass positive, healthy messages to your subconscious mind if you choose to watch the right movies.
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I think you could argue that all of these techniques are involved in Religous Practices.

PairTheBoard

[Woolygimp]

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The zombie video was the one that I consider to be a complete fraud. Which in turn diminishes the other video to nothing..

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yeah I don't quite agree with diminishing it to nothing

it's possible he faked the zombie vid but did the hypno for real

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Possible but not likely. If this guy proved that he's a fraud by using paid actors, which was corroborated if you read those links in the thread, then why not use paid actors for everything else?

Even if he could do some super amazing trick? Why not just make it easier and pay some guy to say whatever you wanted them to?

[Taraz]

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Even if he could do some super amazing trick? Why not just make it easier and pay some guy to say whatever you wanted them to?

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Maybe because some small part of him actually wants to teach his viewers something?

I don't mean to defend Derren Brown. I don't really know all that much about him. Even if the video is a fake there is ample evidence that the phenomenon is real.

[godBoy]

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Even if the video is a fake there is ample evidence that the phenomenon is real.

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Which phenomenon are we talking about here? I get the feeling you are now talking about hypnosis, and that's not necessarily what is occurring in pentecostal churches.

If you're claiming there is ample evidence to support the theory that pastors are hypnotising their church-goers then lets hear it.

[vhawk01]

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The zombie video was the one that I consider to be a complete fraud. Which in turn diminishes the other video to nothing..

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yeah I don't quite agree with diminishing it to nothing

it's possible he faked the zombie vid but did the hypno for real

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Possible but not likely. If this guy proved that he's a fraud by using paid actors, which was corroborated if you read those links in the thread, then why not use paid actors for everything else?

Even if he could do some super amazing trick? Why not just make it easier and pay some guy to say whatever you wanted them to?

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The links in what thread? You don't mean the comments posted on the Youtube video, do you?

[Subfallen]

How is this even a thread? Yeah Darren Brown is a skeptic, etc., but first and foremost he's an entertainer. Who cares if he has used/always uses actors?

But that said, it's obvious that with proper demographic selection you could find people off the street who would react in the way seen in the OP's video. That's not even debatable.

[Taraz]

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Even if the video is a fake there is ample evidence that the phenomenon is real.

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Which phenomenon are we talking about here? I get the feeling you are now talking about hypnosis, and that's not necessarily what is occurring in pentecostal churches.

If you're claiming there is ample evidence to support the theory that pastors are hypnotising their church-goers then lets hear it.

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I just meant hypnosis. Sorry if I was vague on that point.

I never claimed that pastors in general are hypnotizing their church-goers. I tried to be clear that I don't think this goes on very often or that it is even related to the majority of religious experience. I just think it's interesting to think about what might be going on in certain cases.