How Do Kill Games Affect a Poker Room? (with poll)

[PokrLikeItsProse]

This is basically a bunch of random thoughts and questions sparked by playing recently with players who were talking with the dealer about what it would take to get a kill game going in a casino that doesn't currently offer them. I've been called a rock at the table before, so you might guess that I'm not fond of kill pots and play tighter in order to avoid having to post the kill, unlike many players I run into who loosen up and seem to play nearly 100% of hands after winning a pot because they want the kill button as if it were a badge of honor.

I'm guessing that whether or not they offer games with a kill generally doesn't do much to affect poker room traffic. It may be different in places with more competition, where anything that differentiates your poker room from another may affect the number of players you get. Is there any evidence for a poker room gaining or losing traffic by having or not having games with a kill?

Does it make sense for a poker room to offer both kill and no-kill games at the same limit? One would expect the no-kill game to be tighter and less good according to some definitions of good. If a room had, say, 4-5 tables in the evening at a given limit (let's say 4-8 or 6-12) and started to offer some games with a kill, how would players split between kill and no-kill games? How many players would move down from, say, a 6-12 without a kill to a 3/6 with a kill? It sounds like it has the potential to choke higher games.

On the other hand, if a room spreads a bunch of 3/6 games, but can't get any higher limit games going, could it train people to be more interested in playing 6/12 by offering 3/6 with a kill as a sort of 6/12 with training wheels game?

[Howard Beale]

I don't think there's a room in AZ that doesn't use a kill. I don't like it at all because it significantly alters the play. On the plus side there are those (as you mentioned) who purposely play their next hand (almost no matter how atrocious) in order to 'get the kill' and will defend their kill post with great vigor, usually unwisely.

It's a mixed bag but I prefer just playing a higher limit w/o a kill than a game w/ a kill. In AZ, though, I've got no choice.

[kcmoore]

i prefer playing at a kill table. half, full, or progressive kill, it doesn't matter to me. I like it because the people play looser when there is a kill button.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Kill pots are good in some locations and bad in others.

Southern california has lots of kill games, and these are good games. Since cardrooms are everywhere in cali, everyone knows the basics of casino cardplay. Therefore kill pots are not an issue as far as complicating the procedures of the game. In the true spirit of cali, kills generate action. The object of the game when you're leg up is to make it a kill no matter what. And once it's a kill the object is to play extra stupid. That's cali.

In vegas however, particularly in low limit games, there are lots of tourists, many of whom have never played in a casino before. Kill pots seem very complicated to these newbies. They particularly don't like the increased stakes on kill pots as they are often uncertain being in the game at all. The action is stifled during kills in these games, often badly. From dealing countless hands in both kill and non-kill games in vegas I have reached the firm conclusion that kills are bad for vegas poker.

Kills are especially bad if the limits in the room are too close together. It becomes more difficult to get the next higher limit going. This effect is most notable at MGM. When they get the 4-8 with a half kill going you can forget 6-12 or 10-20.

Strategically it's silly to avoid kill games. Although having to post the kill blind will occasionally affect your strategy when you're leg up, the pots are usually big enough where it makes little difference. And since others players tend to play worse in kill pots (whether too tight or too loose) the good player should prefer them.

Al

[Diana Ross Fan]

I find you can learn a lot about a player by how he reacts to the kill. The advantage is awesome.

As for making the new players nervous, well, I suggest usinga pink button and renaming it the "Ballon."

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
Kill pots are good in some locations and bad in others.

Southern california has lots of kill games, and these are good games. Since cardrooms are everywhere in cali, everyone knows the basics of casino cardplay. Therefore kill pots are not an issue as far as complicating the procedures of the game. In the true spirit of cali, kills generate action. The object of the game when you're leg up is to make it a kill no matter what. And once it's a kill the object is to play extra stupid. That's cali.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do the rooms spread kill and no-kill games at the same limit, or is it all kill all the time for a given room? What about Bay Area poker?

[ QUOTE ]

In vegas however, particularly in low limit games, there are lots of tourists, many of whom have never played in a casino before. Kill pots seem very complicated to these newbies. They particularly don't like the increased stakes on kill pots as they are often uncertain being in the game at all. The action is stifled during kills in these games, often badly. From dealing countless hands in both kill and non-kill games in vegas I have reached the firm conclusion that kills are bad for vegas poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is there a boundary for limits, above which kills no longer are bad for vegas poker because the newbies are no longer a problem?

[steamboatin]

Kill games punish the weak players. Most fish don't know how to adjust their play when it is a kill game. I believe that a kill is bad for a low limit game because the fish bust out too fast.

This is anecdotal evidence and may have little value but my favorite game at Caesar's IN was $6-12 limit hold em. It was a really good game and quite popular. A few of the better players started requesting that it be played with a kill. Shortly after that, the game began to decline. I can't quantify how much of that decline can be attributed to adding the kill because No Limit pulled a lot of players away from $6-12.

I think the main reason $6-12 died was pressure from the $1-2 NL but the kill hastened the process.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's a room in AZ that doesn't use a kill. I don't like it at all because it significantly alters the play. On the plus side there are those (as you mentioned) who purposely play their next hand (almost no matter how atrocious) in order to 'get the kill' and will defend their kill post with great vigor, usually unwisely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will never be able to play limit at your level so far be it for me to tell you what's good for Mr. H Beale, but it sure sounds like the kill should be a significant source of profit for Mr. H. Beale. Bad players overplaying weak hands equals good, no?

[Mr Rick]

At Foxwoods the kill games are for all tables at the designated level. For LHE there is a 2/4, 4/8, 5/10 with a full kill, 10/20, and 20/40. For O8 they have 2/4. 4/8 with a half kill, and 8/16. I haven't played in the 5/10 LHE with full kill but I know a few 10/20 regulars who will play that game when they see the kills come up a lot - because people play a lot looser on kill hands. Think about how your play is affected when there is a poster in a pot. I know I play a few more marginal hands.

I have played in the O8 half kill game but I can't make any meaningful observations because -
a) I haven't seen too many kill pots (they only occur on scoops over $80)
b) I suck at Omaha
c) I have been told everybody sucks at Omaha

[that_pope]

I have played 99% of my poker at Casino AZ the last three years, starting with 3/6, and moving up through 4/8, 6/12, 8/16, and am currently at the crossroads between being successful at 15/30 or 20/40, and staying the best player in the 8/16 game. So I am very familiar with the kill and the effects it has on games.

There are three types of people in these kill games. The action players who want to get the kill no matter what and defend it all the way (seen capped pots called 3 cold by killer before with 7-2 and 10-5 to beat my QQ in both cases, in which I was very far behind the AA of the capper in each pot).

There are the overly tight players who rarely raise anyway, but you won’t find them raising without QQ, KK, or AA in a kill pot, and a tangent of the tight player is the total idiots who try to limp, are told it is a kill, and then ask to take their bet back, because it is double what they are used to. Here is an example of why that is a horrible concept. If your hand has value to limp in a regular game, it has even more value in a kill pot. Example using 8/16 stakes with a $4 SB and $8 BB and $16 kill posted (assuming not in the 2 blinds). A regular $8 open limp would give you 1.5:1 on your money, a $16 open limp would give you 1.75:1 on your money, clearly superior odds regardless of any other action.

And the third type of player is the good, observant player who will raise in position a majority of the time when folded to take advantage of the players playing more passively (more passives than maniacs when a kill pot rolls around) and gaining extra equity. The best street ever to bluff on is 4th street in a kill pot against someone scared of putting chips into a pot.

But I also agree with above statements that kill pots just don’t make sense in Vegas. What makes even less sense is having both kill and non-kill games running. Have it one way or another, both is just too confusing for dealers, players, and the floor, keeping them separate. I remember 2 or so years back in Vegas playing at the IP upstairs (it is now downstairs) and asking the dealer why that 2/4 game over there got the new player and not us. He pointed out that it was a kill game and ours wasn’t, and therefore they didn’t have to keep the numbers even, they could have 9 players and a new player could show up, see our 4 handed table, their 9 handed, and choose the kill game over the non-kill game, basically killing whichever game has less players in it…

I am rambling and saying the word ‘kill’ too much…more posts to come as I see fit.

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

I don't like kills for 1 reason. They create a situation where my bankroll can get eaten up too quickly. In other words, If I'm playing 3/6 kill and the kill is on the game has now become 6/12 for at least a hand which would require my bankroll to be $3600, which at this point would be a problem for me. If I had the bankroll to support it I wouldn't mind at all. People go insane at the places I play when a kill is on. It seems like they cap multiple streets.

[jfk]

I've never been in a full kill game, but many of the local games, both LHE and O8B, are half kill.

I find this format to be of great advantage to the better players. The kill button stimulates action and allows a good player another way to exploit edges in making adjustments.

[Moneyline]

IMO the usefulness of kills depends on both how the game typically plays and how the kill is applied.

Games that typically play loose don't need kills, as they already have action and may confuse and/or intimidate newer and/or poorer players. Games that tend to play tighter, however, benefit from the extra action kill pots generate.

How much action the kill generates depends on how it's applied. Especially in a full ring game, if you have to win 2 consecutive raked pots to get the kill button, you are only going to see a few kill pots every hour. On the other hand, if the kill pot is activated when a player wins a large pot (or scoops in a hi/lo game) then there will be more kills and more action.

On a totally different tangent, I just want to mention that kills not only make stupid players play looser, but they also make good players loosen up because there is more blind money out proportional to the stakes.

[BigAlChicago]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like kills for 1 reason. They create a situation where my bankroll can get eaten up too quickly. In other words, If I'm playing 3/6 kill and the kill is on the game has now become 6/12 for at least a hand which would require my bankroll to be $3600, which at this point would be a problem for me. If I had the bankroll to support it I wouldn't mind at all. People go insane at the places I play when a kill is on. It seems like they cap multiple streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the bankroll requirements depend on the type of kill. Where I play, the kill is operative when someone wins two hands in a row. If you calculate that the "leg up" will win approximately 1/10 of the time in full ring, a 3/6 game will play 3/6 90% of the time and 6/12 10% of the time. In other words, you need to be rolled to play something that approximates 3.3/6.6.

Now you might want to adjust it for safety, but if you are bankrolled approximately 10-20% over the 300 BBs for your level, you should be adequately bankrolled for the kill. You shouldn't need to be fully bankrolled for 300 BBs of the kill level.

Note, the analysis varies if the kill pot arises due to the size of pots. I have never played in those types of games, but I understand it can stay at the kill level for long stretches.

BTW, I enjoy playing in a game with a kill because so few of the other low limit players make the proper adjustments for the kill.

[magoo]

Kill pots require you "adjust" to the conditions. I will play a half or full kill, as long as it's 4/8 or below. I refuse to play anything higher, then let the luck factor hand the "worst player in the game" a big "suckout" type kill pot, which gets him even at my expense. /images/graemlins/club.gif

[crashjr]

I like kills, and I took my worst beat ever in a 4/8 full kill game in a kill pot. What everyone says about players not properly adjusting is true.
I've brought this up before, but at the Capitol in Sacramento, the player with the kill button is not obligated to post and is free to fold pre-flop without contributing to the pot unless otherwise in the blinds. This changes the strategy when having a leg up, since there is no posting requirement.

[redfisher]

I like to play the highest limit game that I think I can beat and have the bankroll for, so I don't really like kill games. Of course, if my options are 4/8 limit or 4/8 with a kill I'll take the kill. If they can get an 8/16, 10/20 or 15/30 going I prefer that.

[Diana Ross Fan]

[ QUOTE ]
I've brought this up before, but at the Capitol in Sacramento, the player with the kill button is not obligated to post and is free to fold pre-flop without contributing to the pot unless otherwise in the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how is this a kill game?

[crashjr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've brought this up before, but at the Capitol in Sacramento, the player with the kill button is not obligated to post and is free to fold pre-flop without contributing to the pot unless otherwise in the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how is this a kill game?

[/ QUOTE ]

The stakes are raised on the next hand. And they call it a kill. I agree that it is a pretty strange way to go about having a kill. If you have a better name for it, don't hold back.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I've played in a 1/5 spread limit stud game with a kill where no one had to post any extra bets. It was just a normal 2/10 game instead.