Sunday Warmup - 2 Pair on Extremely Drawy Board

[Jurollo]

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t100/t200
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: t13650
UTG+1: t6052
MP1: t7900
MP2: t10050
MP3: t9924
CO: t3849
Button: t15525
SB: t14375
WPThero: t17650

Pre-flop: (9 players) WPThero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises to t600</font>, 4 folds, WPThero calls t400 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t900)</font>.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (t1300, 2 players)
WPThero checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets t600</font>, <font color="#cc0000">WPThero raises to t1800</font>, MP2 calls t1200 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t3700)</font>.

I don't really see QJ in his range here so maybe AJ, also would he flat call my raise with a set on this board? Also bad raise, I just noticed how small his bet was compared to pot, t2400 or so good?

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (t4900, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">WPThero bets t3950</font>, MP2 calls t3950 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t8850)</font>.

Ok, so now I am a little scared, a J with hearts or something? Also villian tanked for like 45 seconds before this call

River: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (t12800, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">WPThero bets t6800</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 calls all-in t3700</font>.
Uncalled bets: t3100 returned to WPThero.

Pretty sure this bet is pretty gross but I am still ahead of an over pair and AT, AJ, etc. Easy c/c?
Results:
Final pot: t20200

[roo400]

where do you want to check behind? he has position on you. I'd certainly shove this river as well. This is a pretty drawy board and I can conceive that an overpair would play it cautiously (sp?), especially with the quality of the players in this field. A set would have shoved on the flop for sure. The only hand we do not beat is a made straight from the flop which, I think, we must pay off.

edit: saw you changed easy check behind for c/c. Anyway with that much in the pot, I don't see the value in c/cing. He will call with hands we beat, but also check back with them. I can't think of him having a draw (except for combo draws)

[gobboboy]

Standard.

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
where do you want to check behind? he has position on you. I'd certainly shove this river as well. This is a pretty drawy board and I can conceive that an overpair would play it cautiously (sp?), especially with the quality of the players in this field. A set would have shoved on the flop for sure. The only hand we do not beat is a made straight from the flop which, I think, we must pay off.

[/ QUOTE ]
Roo,
I meant c/c I got a lot of tables going.

[Exitonly]

i play it the same way. you have to bet on the river, if you check he'll check behind with almost everything you beat and bet with everything that beats you, so you gotta make him pay when he's behind but has showdown value.

[Jurollo]

Thanks dudes.

[ASPoker8]

I'm definitely raising the flop to at least 2400.

As played, I think its pretty standard.

[bigballz]

NI HAN

[Bond18]

Only thing i change is larger flop CR.

[Pudge714]

Am I the only one who c/rs more shoves turn?

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who c/rs more shoves turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
I should have c/r'd more on the flop. I was 5 tabling and didnt notice bet size to pot ratio and I should have bet much more on flop which would have made the turn an easy shove.

[curtains]

I bet that flop relatively strong.

If for some reason I did check raise, I'd definitely checkraise to more than 1800.

[Ansky]

I prefer leading on this board as ppl check behind on a board of this texture way more often.

As for the river, check/calling would be so unbeleivably terrible here. You have no equity in snapping off bluffs, it just wont happen enough-- and he is still calling w/ top pair like every time, but also checking behind w/ it a lot.

[NoahSD]

Yeah... i'd c/r the flop bigger to make stacks suck less. Everything else is totally standard.

[Foucault]

Lead the flop. If you're going to play stuff like this out of position, you've got to be better at taking control of the betting.

I guess people are saying check-raise so that you can shove the turn? But there are a lot of turns you don't want to be shoving, or at least a lot where you don't know if you want to be shoving. Being OOP, you're better off with either more or less money going in on the flop. Leaving exactly a PSB for the turn creates the best case scenario for Villain if has any kind of draw, because you're the one playing the guessing game.

River is one of those spots where you have to shove just cuz otherwise you give him too much control over which hands get bet and which hands don't.

[FGators]

Yeah, well played (flop raise we've hit on). I feel like sets definitely push the turn or get it in on the flop. His hand looks like an overpair and he definitely tightens up and checks that behind if we plan to check/call the river.