109r hand 75/150 against a monkey.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

Presented in steps.

Villain is a 35/18 monkey.

PokerStars Game #10089273183: Tournament #50597390, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/05/24 - 21:08:48 (ET)
Table '50597390 8' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Gimmemyprops (23505 in chips)
Seat 2: MrteddyKGB (4225 in chips)
Seat 3: JEFFREG (6550 in chips)
Seat 5: LukeFromB13 (26180 in chips)
Seat 6: Hibbs08 (4210 in chips)
Seat 7: DebtReducer (9965 in chips)
Seat 8: eggt@rt (7370 in chips)
Seat 9: jpa_25 (4400 in chips)
JEFFREG: posts small blind 75
LukeFromB13: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LukeFromB13 [Th Td]
Hibbs08: folds
DebtReducer: folds
eggt@rt: folds
jpa_25: folds
Gimmemyprops: raises 300 to 450
MrteddyKGB: folds
JEFFREG: folds
LukeFromB13:

[timex]

Raise to like 1650.

[Body Man D]

Assuming the 35/18 is mostly post rebuy period I like a raise to 1500.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

Why are you guys advocating a raise? We're almost 200BBs deep, sure, but we're out of position against a LAG. He is almost calling 100% and we'll be lost on most flops. What does raising do besides bloat the pot unnecessarily?

Oh, wait...Timex responded.

[TheNewf]

I like goggles posts because they make me feel like way less of a nit. We raise to get value from all those worse hands you say he's going to call with. TT is big enough to play strongly here imo.

edit: fwiw TT is the smallest pair I would reraise here.

[Daut44]

i do both flat call and reraise on balance, probably something like 60/40.

i think i prefer flat call because we dont need to bloat the pot now and since he is a monkey we can choose when to put the money in and its better to do so after seeing the flop.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
I like goggles posts because they make me feel like way less of a nit. We raise to get value from all those worse hands you say he's going to call with. TT is big enough to play strongly here imo.

edit: fwiw TT is the smallest pair I would reraise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I'd much rather raise a smaller pair here since we're so deep, and our hand would be more well disguised. It is SO EASY to put me on a range of TT+, AQ+, because that is what everyone does.

And Newf, I'm definitely not a nit preflop, but I certainly don't like playing HUGE pots OOP against the other chipleader in the tournament. Seems silly and counterproductive.

[TheNewf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like goggles posts because they make me feel like way less of a nit. We raise to get value from all those worse hands you say he's going to call with. TT is big enough to play strongly here imo.

edit: fwiw TT is the smallest pair I would reraise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I'd much rather raise a smaller pair here since we're so deep, and our hand would be more well disguised. It is SO EASY to put me on a range of TT+, AQ+, because that is what everyone does.

And Newf, I'm definitely not a nit preflop, but I certainly don't like playing HUGE pots OOP against the other chipleader in the tournament. Seems silly and counterproductive.

[/ QUOTE ]

How big a monkey are we talking about here? I'm not real worried about him putting me on a hand if he's a big monkey like you said. If he's decent postflop then calling is fine, but if he has a huge range and he's calling all of it and getting too much money in postflop with worse hands I'd much rather build the pot now. Against this type of player I really disagree with raising smaller pairs, but maybe we're thinking of different player types. But the reason the default play that everyone makes is to reraise is probably because it wins the most against a monkey.

[Rekwob]

im a nit, i see a flop

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like goggles posts because they make me feel like way less of a nit. We raise to get value from all those worse hands you say he's going to call with. TT is big enough to play strongly here imo.

edit: fwiw TT is the smallest pair I would reraise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I'd much rather raise a smaller pair here since we're so deep, and our hand would be more well disguised. It is SO EASY to put me on a range of TT+, AQ+, because that is what everyone does.

And Newf, I'm definitely not a nit preflop, but I certainly don't like playing HUGE pots OOP against the other chipleader in the tournament. Seems silly and counterproductive.

[/ QUOTE ]

How big a monkey are we talking about here? I'm not real worried about him putting me on a hand if he's a big monkey like you said. If he's decent postflop then calling is fine, but if he has a huge range and he's calling all of it and getting too much money in postflop with worse hands I'd much rather build the pot now. Against this type of player I really disagree with raising smaller pairs, but maybe we're thinking of different player types. But the reason the default play that everyone makes is to reraise is probably because it wins the most against a monkey.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're thinking of different player types, I think.

I THINK he knows that if I reraise he can call in position because he has a lot of chips, but I highly doubt he is opening a stupidly wide range, even though he IS a monkey. Suited connectors and stuff COULD be in his range, nawmean?

[IWEARGOGGLES]

Anyways, I obviously called. Let's see a flopperino:

LukeFromB13: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [3s Kc 9s]
LukeFromB13:

[AdamBragar]

I like the call preflop cause you are deep.

It seems like flop is a check/call.

[TheNewf]

Check/call I guess.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

I decided to do something a little different, and I think it saves me chips rather than check/calling down and trying to decide whether or not he has spades, overs, etc.

LukeFromB13: checks
Gimmemyprops: bets 750
LukeFromB13: raises 1500 to 2250

So, what's good, HSMTT?

[timex]

I have a very good feeling you are getting stacked 150+ bets deep.

[Exitonly]

i dont think he's c/r-ing with the intention of calling a bet.. (or did you maen pfr will call the c/r and then we'll get stacked on the turn w/ the awkward pot situation? though i think we can prob just c/f the turn if we get called)

i think taking the pot now vs all his hands that are either air or one pair < K that will have trouble calling a c/r is probably better than just calling.. we're not going to get a lot of value out of seeing the turn.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a very good feeling you are getting stacked 150+ bets deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you have enough confidence in my game to post this without adding to the discussion.

SPOILER: I don't get stacked this hand.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think he's c/r-ing with the intention of calling a bet.. (or did you maen pfr will call the c/r and then we'll get stacked on the turn w/ the awkward pot situation? though i think we can prob just c/f the turn if we get called)

i think taking the pot now vs all his hands that are either air or one pair < K that will have trouble calling a c/r is probably better than just calling.. we're not going to get a lot of value out of seeing the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, if he calls my c/r I'm shutting down, and obviously if he throws in another bet I plan on folding.

So this is what happens:

Gimmemyprops: calls 1500
*** TURN *** [3s Kc 9s] [Ts]

Plan from here on out?

What kind of hand do you think monkey has?

[Eagles]

I would almost never 3bet pf here. Your building a huge pot OOP with a marginal hand and unless you flop a set the hand will be incredibly difficult to play especially against someone like the villain described.

I'm not crazy over the flop c/r its basically a play to find out where you are in the hand. Because almost all better hands call and most worse hands fold.

As played I bet the turn he will call worse hands for sure and you don't want to let him hit a free spade. If he raises I'm not sure what my plan is it depends on how big the raise is etc.

[Dunkman]

Most likely hand is some one pair hand. AA and AK will probably call a turn bet, we're most likely gonna lose lesser hands unless they picked up a spade draw. I mean he could have a flush, or KK, but we're not folding now (on the turn, obviously a 4th spade on the river changes things) so there's no reason to worry about them. I'd lead the turn fairly strong here with 3 spades on the board, fulling willing to get it in on the turn if that's what villain wants...also I think checking is actually more suspicious than betting, considering the flop c/r.

[McShove]

entire hand played well imo.

on the river, pretty easy fold (in theory), obviously harder to make while playing. he has the flush here almost every time honestly.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

FWIW the king isn't a spade so I don't think I'd ever get it in on the turn here.

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW the king isn't a spade so I don't think I'd ever get it in on the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops sry I misread the board.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

Alright I'll post the rest of the hand since McShove ruined it:

*** TURN *** [3s Kc 9s] [Ts]
LukeFromB13: bets 2850
Gimmemyprops: calls 2850
*** RIVER *** [3s Kc 9s Ts] [2s]
LukeFromB13: checks
Gimmemyprops: bets 6150
LukeFromB13: folds

I think my turn bet should have been a little bit stronger, but if I was planning on betting a non-spade river (which I was), I wanted my bet to be sized so that he could 3x shove over it.

Anyways, when he called the turn, I was pretty sure he didn't have a flush, but most likely a one pair hand like AK, QK, KJ, KT, etc. He obviously isn't folding any spade, ever, so a river bet seems bad.

I also don't think he has a set because he'd probably reraise my flop checkraise.

[Eagles]

Am I the only person who sort of wants to call the river?

[IWEARGOGGLES]

Yes...what do you beat on the river?

[TheMetetron]

This hand makes me realize tourney donks suck in deep situations.

Stupid easy 3-bet pf. Bet the damn flop, given how you played I could go c/r or c/c, with a preference towards c/c.
Turn you want to bet strong obv, given river I block or check/call. I'm going to need a read to give him this hand here.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand makes me realize tourney donks suck in deep situations.

Stupid easy 3-bet pf. Bet the damn flop, given how you played I could go c/r or c/c, with a preference towards c/c.


Edit: just say flush, retyping now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain to a "tourney donk" how this is a stupid easy 3-bet PF?

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes...what do you beat on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

a monkey? i dont think i mind calling that small bet on the river.

also, i think kyour turn bet was a bit small

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand makes me realize tourney donks suck in deep situations.

Stupid easy 3-bet pf. Bet the damn flop, given how you played I could go c/r or c/c, with a preference towards c/c.


Edit: just say flush, retyping now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain to a "tourney donk" how this is a stupid easy 3-bet PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity. You crush his range. I'm not concerned with bloating the pot with the best hand since I feel I can adequately play poker 150bbs deep. You clearly don't.

[TheMetetron]

Also, bet more on the [censored] turn. Is that some sort of a joke bet?

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand makes me realize tourney donks suck in deep situations.

Stupid easy 3-bet pf. Bet the damn flop, given how you played I could go c/r or c/c, with a preference towards c/c.


Edit: just say flush, retyping now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain to a "tourney donk" how this is a stupid easy 3-bet PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity. You crush his range. I'm not concerned with bloating the pot with the best hand since I feel I can adequately play poker 150bbs deep. You clearly don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to play a 3k pot out of position on the flop against this type of opponent.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand makes me realize tourney donks suck in deep situations.

Stupid easy 3-bet pf. Bet the damn flop, given how you played I could go c/r or c/c, with a preference towards c/c.


Edit: just say flush, retyping now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain to a "tourney donk" how this is a stupid easy 3-bet PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity. You crush his range. I'm not concerned with bloating the pot with the best hand since I feel I can adequately play poker 150bbs deep. You clearly don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to play a 3k pot out of position on the flop against this type of opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine. Admitting you aren't that good at playing with more than 20 blinds is a perfectly acceptable response. But it's wrong and is why tourney donks suck deep stacked. That's all I said.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, bet more on the [censored] turn. Is that some sort of a joke bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you read? Just stop posting if you're going to ruin the thread by not adding anything useful to discuss.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, bet more on the [censored] turn. Is that some sort of a joke bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you read? Just stop posting if you're going to ruin the thread by not adding anything useful to discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I read your reasoning. It just happens to be wrong as well. Thought I'd give you the courtesy of asking you if it was meant as a joke? You got yourself into this river situation by giving all sorts of jackass hands odds to suckout on you. The small turn bet is in contention for biggest mistake of this hand with not 3-betting pf this deep.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
That's fine. Admitting you aren't that good at playing with more than 20 blinds is a perfectly acceptable response. But it's wrong and is why tourney donks suck deep stacked. That's all I said.

[/ QUOTE ]


DOOood take a chill pill. Why'd you come in and start calling everyone donks?

we get it, you like 3betting pf because of .. 'equity'

surely you can do better than that.

calling != scared

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's fine. Admitting you aren't that good at playing with more than 20 blinds is a perfectly acceptable response. But it's wrong and is why tourney donks suck deep stacked. That's all I said.

[/ QUOTE ]


DOOood take a chill pill. Why'd you come in and start calling everyone donks?

we get it, you like 3betting pf because of .. 'equity'

surely you can do better than that.

calling != scared


[/ QUOTE ]

Remake this hand as cash and post it in MSNL. You'll get better responses.

Calling is not being comfortable with big pots and deep stacks when you have a marginal holding. That is cool, but don't defend it as being the correct play. I was linked here by people to give my thoughts.

[Eagles]

Meteron,
Let's use a simple example if villain's pf raising range is top 30% and his calling range to a 3bet is JJ+ do you 3bet? Obviously you should becase TT has better equity against his opening range.

[Exitonly]

think you can skip giving your thoguhts on a hand if all it's gonna be is "repost in msnl" or "Dont defend this as being the correct play"

edit: or "zomg tourney donks!@"

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Meteron,
Let's use a simple example if villain's pf raising range is top 30% and his calling range to a 3bet is JJ+ do you 3bet? Obviously you should becase TT has better equity against his opening range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, all day long. I aldo don't believe his calling rang is JJ+. It definitely shouldn't be 150bb deep. Any pair + many other hands are correct to call.

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meteron,
Let's use a simple example if villain's pf raising range is top 30% and his calling range to a 3bet is JJ+ do you 3bet? Obviously you should becase TT has better equity against his opening range.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, all day long. I aldo don't believe his calling rang is JJ+. It definitely shouldn't be 150bb deep. Any pair + many other hands are correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his calling range is way wider than that. But if his calling range was JJ+ 3betting pf would be horrendous.

edit: I guess it would still be better than folding but calling is clearly way better than 3betting.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
think you can skip giving your thoguhts on a hand if all it's gonna be is "repost in msnl" or "Dont defend this as being the correct play"

edit: or "zomg tourney donks!@"

[/ QUOTE ]

I've given my thoughts. Re-raise pf. Usually c/c flop. As played bet bigger on turn. As played the river is ass and I'd probably block, but I'm not liking any option too much because the hand was misplayed earlier.

Are my thoughts on the hand not clear? I'm not used to giving detailed reasoning for very simple hands like this, but if it will make you happier I can get as detailed as you'd like.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
think you can skip giving your thoguhts on a hand if all it's gonna be is "repost in msnl" or "Dont defend this as being the correct play"

edit: or "zomg tourney donks!@"

[/ QUOTE ]

I've given my thoughts. Re-raise pf. Usually c/c flop. As played bet bigger on turn. As played the river is ass and I'd probably block, but I'm not liking any option too much because the hand was misplayed earlier.

Are my thoughts on the hand not clear? I'm not used to giving detailed reasoning for very simple hands like this, but if it will make you happier I can get as detailed as you'd like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you block the river?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meteron,
Let's use a simple example if villain's pf raising range is top 30% and his calling range to a 3bet is JJ+ do you 3bet? Obviously you should becase TT has better equity against his opening range.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, all day long. I aldo don't believe his calling rang is JJ+. It definitely shouldn't be 150bb deep. Any pair + many other hands are correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his calling range is way wider than that. But if his calling range was JJ+ 3betting pf would be horrendous.

edit: I guess it would still be better than folding but calling is clearly way better than 3betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I meant I would 3-bet in actuality because his range is obviously bigger. What is the point of your hypothetical question that in no way relates to this hand or the way it should be played?

[McShove]

metetron, wtf?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
think you can skip giving your thoguhts on a hand if all it's gonna be is "repost in msnl" or "Dont defend this as being the correct play"

edit: or "zomg tourney donks!@"

[/ QUOTE ]

I've given my thoughts. Re-raise pf. Usually c/c flop. As played bet bigger on turn. As played the river is ass and I'd probably block, but I'm not liking any option too much because the hand was misplayed earlier.

Are my thoughts on the hand not clear? I'm not used to giving detailed reasoning for very simple hands like this, but if it will make you happier I can get as detailed as you'd like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you block the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't always, I'm willing to consider other options. My first instinct here is to block because it can be a 2-way bet as either value or a bluff. Folding to a raise is easy and I'm not going to like having to c/c this if he is remotely smart enough to have correct bluffing frequencies.

Blocking is infinitely better than check/folding because even a tard is going to bluff this river occasionally. If he is going to just fold those hands instead of taking my pot away, I don't mind a block even if I'm in bad shape when called. Making a bet can be correct when you aren't good when called if it saves you the pot when you are good.

[McShove]

honestly i think reraising pf is pretty bad here.

obv not that bad in terms of lost EV, but calling just seems so clearly superior.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
metetron, wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this hand was played horribly? Something happened off of 2+2 that got me linked here. I've been told not to say too much, but I had some justified "wtf is wrong with GOGGLES" before coming to post. If you didn't know that, it appears like I over-reacted. Won't go into more detail, but I felt the need to come here and give my thoughts.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
honestly i think reraising pf is pretty bad here.

obv not that bad in terms of lost EV, but calling just seems so clearly superior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling can be valuable in a way I don't think GOGGLES is going to play the hand. If you can make your opponent make huge mistakes with your hand because it is under-repped and you are willing to make this a big pot postflop with a marginal holding when justified then I agree a call can be okay. I'd do it myself sometimes.

However, he doesn't want to 3-bet because he doesn't feel comfortable playing this hand out of position and without a set is probably not going to win a ton here. If that is his mindset (which I believe to be true), then just calling is for entirely the wrong reasons and isn't going to be the "correct play" though it might be for him to not lose more/win less if he isn't comfortable when the pot gets big.

Meh, hard to say what I'm trying to convey, but hope that made sense.

[timex]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meteron,
Let's use a simple example if villain's pf raising range is top 30% and his calling range to a 3bet is JJ+ do you 3bet? Obviously you should becase TT has better equity against his opening range.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, all day long. I aldo don't believe his calling rang is JJ+. It definitely shouldn't be 150bb deep. Any pair + many other hands are correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his calling range is way wider than that. But if his calling range was JJ+ 3betting pf would be horrendous.

edit: I guess it would still be better than folding but calling is clearly way better than 3betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain this, I think you are VERY wrong.

[Inyaface]

Metetron,
It's an MTT hand not a cash game hand. Tendencies are different so you won't have as good a read. Also you try to accomplish different things pre and post flop in each since equity comes from different spots (Cev is not equal to $ev in mtts). I play both cash and mtt's and it pisses me off when people are like LOL DONKAMENTS BWAHAHHAHAA especially when they are marginal winners at the games the play. I have no clue how big a winner you are so this is no knock on you, just a general comment. What I can say is seriously dude stop thinking your the god of MTTs since it seems you don't get some basic mtt concepts.

Goggles I like C/C flop CR turn and check re-evaluate river if the board came the same.

As played on the flop I like the turn and river.

[coxquinn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meteron,
Let's use a simple example if villain's pf raising range is top 30% and his calling range to a 3bet is JJ+ do you 3bet? Obviously you should becase TT has better equity against his opening range.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, all day long. I aldo don't believe his calling rang is JJ+. It definitely shouldn't be 150bb deep. Any pair + many other hands are correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his calling range is way wider than that. But if his calling range was JJ+ 3betting pf would be horrendous.

edit: I guess it would still be better than folding but calling is clearly way better than 3betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain this, I think you are VERY wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

finally someone went after that logic

[LearnedfromTV]

metetron is being a dick about it and i hate when people say underrepped, but i basically agree.

against a 35/18 monkey, you should be loving the idea of "bloating the pot" with a hand as strong as TT, because you'll most likely have unimproved TT postflop, and the way to win a medium to big pot with TT UI is to start with a big pot.

if this guy is really a lag monkey and you both have a lot of chips, you should be gunning for big pots with him, not avoiding them.

a lot of the counterarguments people are making would apply vs. a good 18/15 tag or someone tighter, but here I think just calling gives up too much.

[coxquinn]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think he's c/r-ing with the intention of calling a bet.. (or did you maen pfr will call the c/r and then we'll get stacked on the turn w/ the awkward pot situation? though i think we can prob just c/f the turn if we get called)

i think taking the pot now vs all his hands that are either air or one pair < K that will have trouble calling a c/r is probably better than just calling.. we're not going to get a lot of value out of seeing the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

who isnt stoked on stokke

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meteron,
Let's use a simple example if villain's pf raising range is top 30% and his calling range to a 3bet is JJ+ do you 3bet? Obviously you should becase TT has better equity against his opening range.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, all day long. I aldo don't believe his calling rang is JJ+. It definitely shouldn't be 150bb deep. Any pair + many other hands are correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his calling range is way wider than that. But if his calling range was JJ+ 3betting pf would be horrendous.

edit: I guess it would still be better than folding but calling is clearly way better than 3betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain this, I think you are VERY wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you 3bet with TT here you are turning a hand that has a lot of postflop value into a bluff. Meh I guess the problem is once he calls you can play perfectly postflop because he has such a narrow range. But if you 3bet you are turning TT into 27o and in a spot with deep stacks you want to try and get him to commit money with worse hands which he will never do if he 3bets.

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
metetron is being a dick about it and i hate when people say underrepped, but i basically agree.

against a 35/18 monkey, you should be loving the idea of "bloating the pot" with a hand as strong as TT, because you'll most likely have unimproved TT postflop, and the way to win a medium to big pot with TT UI is to start with a big pot.

if this guy is really a lag monkey and you both have a lot of chips, you should be gunning for big pots with him, not avoiding them.

a lot of the counterarguments people are making would apply vs. a good 18/15 tag or someone tighter, but here I think just calling gives up too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was under the impression that the 35/18 wasn't very reliable because it came from the rebuy period. Is that not correct?

[nath]

I'm kind of drunk, but the one thing I can offer is "Bomb the ever loving [censored] out of the turn"

[Crispy]

TheMetetron quit being a dick, you just come off as arragont. However, I do agree that against a Lagtard raising reraising preflop is often a good idea. Nothing wrong with playing big pots with loose pplayers. Now if your opponent was a tricky lag, well than that changes the hand entirely and c/c is a fine idea because your opponent will be looking to raise/ float you on hands you reraise with.

On the turn, when you hit your bingo card, I often just check/shove. Only reason I do this is cause your opponent IS a lagtard and will most likely bet the turn cause it looked like you were bluffing and are scared. Depending on how tricky of a lag I may just bet 3/4 pot on the turn.

Either way river is definitly a blocking bet. Your check here is really weak and I think anyone would bet at you.

[kleath]

[ QUOTE ]

If you 3bet with TT here you are turning a hand that has a lot of postflop value into a bluff. Meh I guess the problem is once he calls you can play perfectly postflop because he has such a narrow range. But if you 3bet you are turning TT into 27o and in a spot with deep stacks you want to try and get him to commit money with worse hands which he will never do if he 3bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares if its a "bluff" if it has higher expectation? He's folding so often in your wacky hypothetical that raising is rediculously profitable.

[LearnedfromTV]

I really disagree with the idea that TT=72o in a rr pot. Even as an intentional exaggeration, that statement is very misleading.

[Pudge714]

Goggles,
Preflop is fine and standard.
I would check call the flop. I think c/r is bad. Just check call if you think he two barrels a lot I don't mind check calling the turn again depending on the card.
Please bet more on the turn.
River I guess is fine. I might FPS it due to timing tells or something and I might c/c or c/r, but with the info given c/f is fine.


Metereon,
[ QUOTE ]

Blocking is infinitely better than check/folding because even a tard is going to bluff this river occasionally. If he is going to just fold those hands instead of taking my pot away, I don't mind a block even if I'm in bad shape when called. Making a bet can be correct when you aren't good when called if it saves you the pot when you are good.

[/ QUOTE ]
A block here is a bluff worse hands almost never call.
I don't see how you conclude blocking>c/f because people will bluff, without paying any attention to his bluffing frequency, his bet sizing, your bet sizing of a block, his bluff raising frequency if you block, etc. I'm being a nit here, but to say it is infinitely better would only be true if he always bets the river.

Eagles,
I told you this IRL, but TT=22 is a much much much better analogy than TT=72o. I'm being a nit here, but in your example three betting would be better because you would take it down a ton and you could play perfectly postflop. That being said I understand your point and that is why I think a preflop call is best.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
A block here is a bluff worse hands almost never call.

[/ QUOTE ]
The point is that it keeps us from losing the post some of the times we have the best hand. It's practically imperative for villain to bet after we check river.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A block here is a bluff worse hands almost never call.

[/ QUOTE ]
The point is that it keeps us from losing the post some of the times we have the best hand. It's practically imperative for villain to bet after we check river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Than c/c or c/r

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A block here is a bluff worse hands almost never call.

[/ QUOTE ]
The point is that it keeps us from losing the post some of the times we have the best hand. It's practically imperative for villain to bet after we check river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Than c/c or c/r

[/ QUOTE ]
So we can burn up a ton of chips when he has the nuts or inadvertently value-bets a low spade?

[aejones]

OK, this has gotten some attention, so I will give it the final word.

Pretty much everything I say will be right.

Listen.

Preflop, against a 35/18 "monkey", a reraise should be a strong part of your game. That is, you have the fifth strongest starting hand in Unlimited Texas Hold Them, therefore, you should reraise it for value, a good % of the time. What are ideal percentages? I have no idea. I would probably 3-bet/call in the area of 75%/25%, but that isn't set in stone, and I have no idea if that's what I actually do.

Now, if you do feel like you'll be lost on many different flops (i.e. obv which to lead and which to CC and which to CR and bet sizing), then you should feel comfortable calling at a much higher rate. The % with which you call and raise here can definitely depend on your own 'percieved skill' postflop (i.e. confidence, obv).

To the flop: The flop check-raise here is horrendous. I mean, there is really NEVER a reason to check-raise here... It is simply HORRIBLE. I'm writing in big letters so you will understand that this is a 11/10 on the bad scale. It's absolutely excruciatingly awful, and when I read that you did it and the way you defended yourself I cried a little bit on the inside.

My standard for this hand would be to CC and lead for ~pot on the turn.

Given that you didn't, you actually managed to get a great turn card (note: I would check raise this flop ALL DAY if I knew I was turning a two-outer!!!). So, you need to bet as close to the pot here as possible. Routinely, I'm someone who bets small. My bet sizing in both cash and tournaments remains about 1/2-2/3-3/4 of the pot, and primarily 1/2 pot (and sometimes less) in tournaments. However, in a vacuum, against a friggin' monkey, you can do whatever you want to own him. That is, on this turn, you should be betting as close to the pot as humanly possible. With rough math, I guess the pot is like 6500 and you bet 2850? No sir, that's terrible. This guy will show up with pair + gutshot + spade, or any combo of them a great deal of times, and you need to absolutely charge him. He'll be willing to pay a lot, so overcharge him. I'd bet like 5250 on the turn (if there was 6500 in the pot).

Basically, the hand is butchered and I feel like since this is the HSMTT forum I can say that.

It's really bad/not good.

When I got to the river, there's a decent chance I would bet the min as quickly as possible if he was definitely a donk (and if he was an unknown and had those preflop stats, he likely was).

[curtains]

I'd usually call preflop.

I would just call the flop.

I'd bet more on the turn. Super drawy board.

[mlagoo]

i really agree with basically everything aejones said.

i think preflop is generally a mistake, but calling isnt bad if you arent very comfortable playing oop in 3bet pots when you are deep. not many players are -- most of those who are are experienced nl6max players. i would guess my call/3bet %s are something like 50/50 here. the flop c/r is really... bizarre? i don't know, i don't like it. you aren't bluffing him off of anything and you aren't getting value off of anything (except maybe some 9x hand that thinks he has implied odds to improve, but i think that's pretty rare). the turn bet is obviously wrong, and i tihnk the river decision is close... i think c/f is probably best, he's going to just take his showdown with Kx no spade, 90% of players aren't aware enough to turn that hand into a bluff here. if he bets he has you beat, so fine, fold. you dont have enough room to block the river, i dont think.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
i really agree with basically everything aejones said.

i think preflop is generally a mistake, but calling isnt bad if you arent very comfortable playing oop in 3bet pots when you are deep. not many players are -- most of those who are are experienced nl6max players. i would guess my call/3bet %s are something like 50/50 here. the flop c/r is really... bizarre? i don't know, i don't like it. you aren't bluffing him off of anything and you aren't getting value off of anything (except maybe some 9x hand that thinks he has implied odds to improve, but i think that's pretty rare). the turn bet is obviously wrong, and i tihnk the river decision is close... i think c/f is probably best, he's going to just take his showdown with Kx no spade, 90% of players aren't aware enough to turn that hand into a bluff here. if he bets he has you beat, so fine, fold. you dont have enough room to block the river, i dont think.

[/ QUOTE ]


On the flop this is definitely a spot where we don't want to bloat the pot out of position. We have a relatively decent bluff catching hand here against an overaggressive player.

[shaundeeb]

I dunno vs nuts like this I always 3bet PF and if board is semi scary c/c a few times let him bluff cuz monkeys do it a lot. Let him give you his chips with UI 10s it's a strong enough hand to play a decent pot the whole we are two tourney CLs is a bad reason not to play a big pot. Stop turning down such a good edge to chip up significant amount. He will give his chips to others so either take them this hand or let him give it to more competent players who may give you [censored] later with their bigger stack cuz they played better against the monkey.