Money. Bored. Evolution.

[arahant]

Open offer, to NR, Inso, and anyone else with an extensive post history advocating that evolotion is false.

If you will read and digest the contents of talkorigins, which would be a significant amount of effort on par with a good undergraduate level class, I imagine, I will pay you 5k.

Details subject to negotiation, and obviously some sort of test will be required, but the offer is not meant to be tricky in any way.

Anyone?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Open offer, to NR, Inso, and anyone else with an extensive post history advocating that evolotion is false.

If you will read and digest the contents of talkorigins, which would be a significant amount of effort on par with a good undergraduate level class, I imagine, I will pay you 5k.

Details subject to negotiation, and obviously some sort of test will be required, but the offer is not meant to be tricky in any way.

Anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I make a gimmick account please please please? /images/graemlins/grin.gif I promise I'll make a couple hundred anti-evolution posts first. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[KUJustin]

What do we mean by evolution is false?

I typically fall into the group of posters that you mentioned, but I'm not sure where I'd land on this one.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
What do we mean by evolution is false?

I typically fall into the group of posters that you mentioned, but I'm not sure where I'd land on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd suggest these criteria:

Believe there is no evidence or it is impossible to support speciation through natural selection

or something along those lines. Its arahant's 5 grand, though, so I'll let him decide. I had no idea he was wealthy enough to make this challenge.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do we mean by evolution is false?

I typically fall into the group of posters that you mentioned, but I'm not sure where I'd land on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd suggest these criteria:

Believe there is no evidence or it is impossible to support speciation through natural selection

or something along those lines. Its arahant's 5 grand, though, so I'll let him decide. I had no idea he was wealthy enough to make this challenge.

[/ QUOTE ]

my first instict was to make a post like yours, saying i could start today if the offer will still be good in the future. then i wondered if i should ask him to stake me.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do we mean by evolution is false?

I typically fall into the group of posters that you mentioned, but I'm not sure where I'd land on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd suggest these criteria:

Believe there is no evidence or it is impossible to support speciation through natural selection

or something along those lines. Its arahant's 5 grand, though, so I'll let him decide. I had no idea he was wealthy enough to make this challenge.

[/ QUOTE ]

my first instict was to make a post like yours, saying i could start today if the offer will still be good in the future. then i wondered if i should ask him to stake me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I didnt already have a good staking deal I might have asked the same. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[David Sklansky]

It is my understanding that Not Ready is not adamantly opposed to the truth of full fledged evolution as long as God is somehow behind it. But perhaps I shouldn't say that since I don't want you to rescind an offer that he might very well accept.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
Believe there is no evidence or it is impossible to support speciation through natural selection

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure there is no empirical evidence for speciation through natural selection

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Believe there is no evidence or it is impossible to support speciation through natural selection

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure there is no empirical evidence for speciation through natural selection

[/ QUOTE ]
It has been observed in a limited and mucky way (as is usual with speciation discussions) amongst drosophila amongst others. A geneticist friend of mine lent me a book on it back when Sharkey was around but it was too heavy going for me.

[Ron Paul]

Evolution is crap!

Make your check payable to . . .

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
What do we mean by evolution is false?

I typically fall into the group of posters that you mentioned, but I'm not sure where I'd land on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You very well may, that would be my impression.
This offer is completely legit, but obviously we need to flesh out the details.

No gimmick accounts, boys...
If vhawk, borodog, or anyone else would like to help with the suggestions on details and who is 'eligible' and how I should judge completion (once somebody has expressed genuine interest), It would be appreciated.

And of course, I'm willing to deposit funds with a long-time poster on whom we can agree.

I don't know what my intent is, beyond spreading knowledge, but of course, it would be nice if whoever completes this would discuss it here afterwards.

Also, I'll let the various longtime smp posters decide who is most worthy of this experiment in education should there be multiple takers...

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
Its arahant's 5 grand, though, so I'll let him decide. I had no idea he was wealthy enough to make this challenge.

[/ QUOTE ]

More than I need, less than I deserve /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Interested in helping? Is KUjustin a good guinea pig, ya think?

It was that 'brachiasourus' post from Inso that really got me going /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[arahant]

dang...user post histories only go back 200 posts.
If you do want to take this on, let me know and I will look up your posts.

[KUJustin]

arahant, pm sent.

tl;dr: I'm a fundamentalist Christian who hasn't ruled out evolution, but generally doesn't consider it a sufficient explanation for the creation around him. I also have too much time and not enough money.

[kerowo]

You can pay a horse to go to water...

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
You can pay a horse to go to water...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm well aware.
And even if you could make them drink, it won't change the world. I think the subject of my post says it all.

Though I am extremely interested in finding out how this goes. I think (or hope) it will be educational for all.

[Phil153]

Interesting idea. The only way to properly test is a set of detailed questions answered in real time over AIM (say with a 1 minute time limit), and a set of pre written answers for a third party to check the responses against. You could also do in a public chat room where we can watch /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

It'd be fun to see someone slightly more kooky than Justin, but it's your money of course.

[Praxis101]

I'd really like to do this, I don't really believe evolution is false though. I'm not exactly "against" evolution, so much as know absolutely nothing about the science. I might have the most absurd collection of posts in SMP history, though, so that might be a point in my favor.

I am busto, and would be willing to start cracking away immediately and finish in a (relatively) quick amount of time. arahant: help me create my first intelligent post(s) in my 2+2 history! please to be considering?

Side note: estimates on time to complete the readings?

[dknightx]

i probably don't post here enough/fundamentalist enough to qualify, but i would be willing to read up more on evolution.

[KUJustin]

Hahaha, I'm flattered to find out that I'm not considered a complete kook on this board.

Whenever the topic of non-believers going to heaven comes up I feel like the sentiment is quite the opposite. Maybe you all just think I'm an a-hole rather than crazy though.

Anyway, good to find out I'm sane. Maybe if I can get 10 offers like this I can use the 50k to take on DSklans. I'm pretty sure I can ace the ACT math in half time with a little practice.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'll let the various longtime smp posters decide who is most worthy of this experiment in education should there be multiple takers...

[/ QUOTE ]

You should spend your 5k educating kids who still have a chance at becoming an intelligent, rational human being. Why waste time and money with lost cases such as NR?

Of course then again if it's just an experiment I don't know why you used the word "worthy".

[yurk]

the kalam argument. Boom goes the dynamite. where's my 5k?

[Inso0]

I have to devour the entire Talk Origins website and regurgitate the talking points on demand?

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/outline.html

I think to make this easier on both of us, all of the test questions would have to come from a page directly linked here.

I'm not afraid of the truth, if you can provide it.

Despite what you all may think of me, I do not make my statements due to idiocy or perhaps "blind faith in the almighty God, ALLELUIA AMEN!" In fact, I tested in the 99th percentile among my peers all my life. As I'm sure many of you did too, or you wouldn't spend your time browsing forums such as these. The difference between you and I is simply perspective.



What is the time limit being imposed on me for this challenge? I have a wife and three kids. And like most homeowners in Wisconsin, these first few warm weekends are used to tend to things that require attention around the house. In addition, my daughter's 1st birthday is on Monday, so I daresay I probably won't be able to devote much time to Talk Origins this weekend. And I haven't looked around the site but there certainly are a [censored] of links on that site map. So...

I'm willing to do this. It gives me a perfect $5000 excuse to increase the scope of my understanding on the issue.

I would like a written outline from you on the requirements for payoff though. Who knows this guy well enough to vouch for his ability to dish out $5k on an internet challenge?


EDIT: I just clicked a few of those links. There are entire BOOKS typed out on this site. This is quite an undertaking. However I see that they have Darwin's book "The Origin of Species" on there. I've been meaning to read that but couldnt justify putting $6.95 in someone's pocket for it.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Believe there is no evidence or it is impossible to support speciation through natural selection

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure there is no empirical evidence for speciation through natural selection

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its arahant's 5 grand, though, so I'll let him decide. I had no idea he was wealthy enough to make this challenge.

[/ QUOTE ]

More than I need, less than I deserve /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Interested in helping? Is KUjustin a good guinea pig, ya think?

It was that 'brachiasourus' post from Inso that really got me going /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is KUJustin a good candidate? Not sure...you want to lose this bet or not? I wouldn't take KU's action, just because my general impression of his posting is that he is more intellectually honest than some. I don't know if that is good or bad, though, since I don't really know your motivation. If your goal is to spend 5k to convince someone of evolution, he is probably a good candidate. If your goal is to dangle 5k in an attempt to prove someone is a hack, I think you can find more fertile ground.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to devour the entire Talk Origins website and regurgitate the talking points on demand?

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/outline.html

I think to make this easier on both of us, all of the test questions would have to come from a page directly linked here.

I'm not afraid of the truth, if you can provide it.

Despite what you all may think of me, I do not make my statements due to idiocy or perhaps "blind faith in the almighty God, ALLELUIA AMEN!" In fact, I tested in the 99th percentile among my peers all my life. As I'm sure many of you did too, or you wouldn't spend your time browsing forums such as these. The difference between you and I is simply perspective.



What is the time limit being imposed on me for this challenge? I have a wife and three kids. And like most homeowners in Wisconsin, these first few warm weekends are used to tend to things that require attention around the house. In addition, my daughter's 1st birthday is on Monday, so I daresay I probably won't be able to devote much time to Talk Origins this weekend. And I haven't looked around the site but there certainly are a [censored] of links on that site map. So...

I'm willing to do this. It gives me a perfect $5000 excuse to increase the scope of my understanding on the issue.

I would like a written outline from you on the requirements for payoff though. Who knows this guy well enough to vouch for his ability to dish out $5k on an internet challenge?


EDIT: I just clicked a few of those links. There are entire BOOKS typed out on this site. This is quite an undertaking. However I see that they have Darwin's book "The Origin of Species" on there. I've been meaning to read that but couldnt justify putting $6.95 in someone's pocket for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that you constantly distance yourself from the embarrassment that is your religious brethren, the creationists, and yet, when pushed, you consistently take a creationist position.

[Inso0]

I do this because you'd like nothing more than to lump me in with the evangelical crackpots from the south who you see stock footage of any time someone wants to descredit Christianity.

You know the type. They start yelling and screaming and saying ALLELUIA whenever anyone says something that goes against what they hear from the pulpit every Sunday. They're usually not showered and have a terrible drawl sometimes to the point of not being able to understand wtf they're saying.

I have all my teeth, I avoid using double negatives in every day speech, and I can point out my own state on a map. I realize that this bothers you, but it is what it is.

I'm a creationist because I believe it to be the very best explanation of our universe. Not because God will smite me if I don't.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I do this because you'd like nothing more than to lump me in with the evangelical crackpots from the south who you see stock footage of any time someone wants to descredit Christianity.

You know the type. They start yelling and screaming and saying ALLELUIA whenever anyone says something that goes against what they hear from the pulpit every Sunday. They're usually not showered and have a terrible drawl sometimes to the point of not being able to understand wtf they're saying.

I have all my teeth, I avoid using double negatives in every day speech, and I can point out my own state on a map. I realize that this bothers you, but it is what it is.

I'm a creationist because I believe it to be the very best explanation of our universe. Not because God will smite me if I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but no one said anything about the universe. Do you believe it to be the best explanation for the creation of Earth, or the creation of life, or the creation of the diversity of life?

[Inso0]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, but no one said anything about the universe. Do you believe it to be the best explanation for the creation of Earth, or the creation of life, or the creation of the diversity of life?

[/ QUOTE ]

The universe and ALL that is contained within it.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ok, but no one said anything about the universe. Do you believe it to be the best explanation for the creation of Earth, or the creation of life, or the creation of the diversity of life?

[/ QUOTE ]

The universe and ALL that is contained within it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But do you believe that there are processes at work in the universe, that work unattended, or do you believe that god pushes each atom around to their new assigned place?

luckyme

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure there is no empirical evidence for speciation through natural selection



I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok post it. The fruit fly thing said that after 1/2 flies fed sugar and 1/2 flies fed starch for generations they preferred to mate with their "own" kind, but it didn't say that it was impossible for a sugar to reproduce with a starch, so I don't think that qualifies as speciation.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

If you will read and digest the contents of talkorigins, which would be a significant amount of effort on par with a good undergraduate level class, I imagine, I will pay you 5k.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not anti-evolutionist, per se. I've even stated I have no problem with micro-evolution, i.e., things change. I have serious doubts about, but don't outright deny, one common ancestor and human evolution.

I could certainly use the money. If the test is only about what's on talk origin I'm game. I have no science worth mentioning so I couldn't pass anything on anthropology or biology,for instance, that isn't on that site.

When I finish this you could partner up with DS to send me for my Ph.D.

[pokerbobo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a creationist because I believe it to be the very best explanation of our universe. Not because God will smite me if I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this created in 6 days = best explanation

All of this created over billions of years = not best explanation

Really? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[yurk]

the problem isnt the number of years or days, but the fact that the universe is finite directly contradicts evolution.

[Inso0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ok, but no one said anything about the universe. Do you believe it to be the best explanation for the creation of Earth, or the creation of life, or the creation of the diversity of life?

[/ QUOTE ]

The universe and ALL that is contained within it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But do you believe that there are processes at work in the universe, that work unattended, or do you believe that god pushes each atom around to their new assigned place?

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I believe the Universe is largely functioning under its own power.

A God who had to control each atom would be a God that needed to find a better hobby.

And before you ask, I do NOT believe that God used evolution to create man.

[Inso0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a creationist because I believe it to be the very best explanation of our universe. Not because God will smite me if I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this created in 6 days = best explanation

All of this created over billions of years = not best explanation

Really? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not created over billions of years. Manifested on its own out of nothingness. To create something would require a creator. Evolution denies a creator of any kind.

[yurk]

[/ QUOTE ]

But do you believe that there are processes at work in the universe, that work unattended, or do you believe that god pushes each atom around to their new assigned place?



[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't it make more since for God to create laws that govern his creation instead of doing it all himself.

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a creationist because I believe it to be the very best explanation of our universe. Not because God will smite me if I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this created in 6 days = best explanation

All of this created over billions of years = not best explanation

Really? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible post.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a creationist because I believe it to be the very best explanation of our universe. Not because God will smite me if I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this created in 6 days = best explanation

All of this created over billions of years = not best explanation

Really? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not created over billions of years. Manifested on its own out of nothingness. To create something would require a creator. Evolution denies a creator of any kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

What created the creator?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

What created the creator?


[/ QUOTE ]


How did evolution evolve?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What created the creator?


[/ QUOTE ]


How did evolution evolve?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would evolution evolve?

It's besides the point anyways. I was merely pointing out that the argument of, "well the universe had to get here somehow, it can't have just sprang up from nothing," is faulty. Any argument you make about our existence like that necessarily applies to a creator also.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

It's besides the point anyways.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is the point.

[flipdeadshot22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What created the creator?


[/ QUOTE ]


How did evolution evolve?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question doesnt even make sense.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It's besides the point anyways.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop being so cryptic. I'm not even sure what your "how did evolution evolve" comment was supposed to mean. If you're using it to argue against my point to Inso, then just make an argument saying so instead of just making a statement that doesn't make any sense.

[Neuge]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What created the creator?


[/ QUOTE ]


How did evolution evolve?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question doesnt even make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
It makes sense from NR's perspective. Of course the answer is "It didn't," but that doesn't stop people with little understanding of evolution from posing it.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ok, but no one said anything about the universe. Do you believe it to be the best explanation for the creation of Earth, or the creation of life, or the creation of the diversity of life?

[/ QUOTE ]

The universe and ALL that is contained within it.

[/ QUOTE ]

God is the best explanation for the horrible screenplay I'm working on?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem isnt the number of years or days, but the fact that the universe is finite directly contradicts evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

....WHAT?!?!

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

How did evolution evolve?
This question doesnt even make sense.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

What created the creator?


[/ QUOTE ]
And this one does?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not even sure what your "how did evolution evolve"


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's ok to ask where the absolute, eternal, uncreated Creator of the universe came from it's ok to ask where evolution came from.

Is that uncryptic enough?

[arahant]

Inso...
I don't literally mean the entire site...I would look at the posts of whoever ends up doing this, and choose a large amount of info (but still a subset) that I felt most addressed their general objections.

All 'rules' would be laid out ahead of time, along with the 'course requirements'.

As I mentioned above, I will deposit the money with another poster (assuming someone will agree to that) or individual...I'm sure we can find someone we mutually agree upon.

As to 'level of mastery'...in general, you should be able to understand the evidence presented. Serioiusly, it's just like college. You certainly don't have to believe any of it.

I don't intend this to be easy. I'm not being tricky, but I'm not just tossing out money to someone who wants to claim they read the site. (If you look at the feedback section, eg, there's a lot of "Hey, I read this whole site, and how come there's horses? Huh? Huh? where are the monkey men? Huh? Yeah...thought so..."

If I reach agreement with someone, It will be fair, impartial, clear ahead of time, and secured by someone we can trust. But not mindlessly easy.

So far I see SOME interest from you and KUJustin...I'm out of touch for a few days, so I'll let this thread run and see what develops, and also think about the logistics of 'testing'.

Edit - Actually I see there are some others with possible interest too...didn't mean to neglect you guys.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not even sure what your "how did evolution evolve"


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's ok to ask where the absolute, eternal, uncreated Creator of the universe came from it's ok to ask where evolution came from.

Is that uncryptic enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

Evolution is just our best attempt at describing what has already happened. It didn't come from anywhere. The species that we see today are the ones who could survive various environmental conditions.

I think the who created the creator argument is kind of dumb too though. It shouldn't really matter. We observe this universe and from that we might posit a creator God. Something might have created that God, but that isn't necessarily relevant to this universe's existence. A better argument would try to show why we have no sound reason for positing this creator God in the first place.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'll let the various longtime smp posters decide who is most worthy of this experiment in education should there be multiple takers...

[/ QUOTE ]

You should spend your 5k educating kids who still have a chance at becoming an intelligent, rational human being. Why waste time and money with lost cases such as NR?


[/ QUOTE ]
You are almost certainly right, and you've made me feel a little guilty, and rash. Nonetheless, I don't retract offers, I still think it will be interesting, we all waste money sometimes, etc. And hey...trickle down, right...I'm paying hard-core christians, after all...surely some will go to charity /images/graemlins/smile.gif.
[ QUOTE ]

Of course then again if it's just an experiment I don't know why you used the word "worthy".

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I sometimes choose my words poorly. Perhaps 'most appropriate for this experiment'. It's interesting, actually, the range of possibilities...

[yurk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a creationist because I believe it to be the very best explanation of our universe. Not because God will smite me if I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this created in 6 days = best explanation

All of this created over billions of years = not best explanation

Really? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not created over billions of years. Manifested on its own out of nothingness. To create something would require a creator. Evolution denies a creator of any kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

What created the creator?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would a creator God need to be created? It's above time.

[yurk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the problem isnt the number of years or days, but the fact that the universe is finite directly contradicts evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

....WHAT?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you agree with the kalam argument, then for evolution to be true you would need an eternal, infinite universe. We know that the universe is finite, so it breaks down the very foundation of evolution's view of the universe.

[PLOlover]

I think the main point of the anti-evolution crowds is that things like social-darwinism, ie killing people or letting them die, is given scientific credibility, paradoxically enough.

On the other hand the church as done a lot of killing.

I think the point that can be taken from all this is that people and organizations are pretty rotten and anything that can mitigate the evil in human beings is probably better than nothing.

I mean really, evolution is pretty meaningless in and of itself, it just takes on importance in relation to other things that it has no direct relationship to. (morality stuff mostly)

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not even sure what your "how did evolution evolve"


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's ok to ask where the absolute, eternal, uncreated Creator of the universe came from it's ok to ask where evolution came from.

Is that uncryptic enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes thank you.

Evolution isn't a thing, it's a process that we've given a name to, so I don't think your point holds. However I think that you're trying to say that it's not ok to ask where the creator came from and I agree with that. It's also not ok to ask where our existence came from as an argument for a creator. But now as I look back at the originall Inso0 post that I was responding to, I see I misread his post and he wasn't actually arguing that. I apologize for the confusion I have created.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

We observe this universe and from that we might posit a creator God. Something might have created that God, but that isn't necessarily relevant to this universe's existence.


[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Evolution isn't a thing, it's a process


[/ QUOTE ]

But why this process? It isn't logically required, it's contingent, so how did it get here, evolve, come into being? If it's always existed, why is it there and not some other process? Or any process?

Just a hint on all this - if God is absolute, eternal Creator who created the laws of nature then the laws of nature don't apply to Him and so He doesn't need a creator Himself since He wasn't created.

Or stated differently, God doesn't need an explanation because He is the explanation for everything else. Difficult to make that case for evolution.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Evolution isn't a thing, it's a process


[/ QUOTE ]

But why this process? It isn't logically required, it's contingent, so how did it get here, evolve, come into being? If it's always existed, why is it there and not some other process? Or any process?

Just a hint on all this - if God is absolute, eternal Creator who created the laws of nature then the laws of nature don't apply to Him and so He doesn't need a creator Himself since He wasn't created.

Or stated differently, God doesn't need an explanation because He is the explanation for everything else. Difficult to make that case for evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]


Didn't Boro make a post (since often quoted) demonstrating to you how evolution is actually logically required?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Didn't Boro make a post


[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Didn't Boro make a post


[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

[/ QUOTE ]
I like you better when you just ignore me.

[SoReady]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Didn't Boro make a post


[/ QUOTE ]

Who?

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhh you know who Borodog is

i'm game for $4k.
still probly won't buy any of this "evolution" crap.
AIM / posting / test of some kind - it's all good.

praise jesus

holla

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

uhhh you know who Borodog is


[/ QUOTE ]

Never heard of him.

BTW, I'm suing for copyright infringement and sending your name in to the FBI's fraud department for impersonating a Christian.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Evolution isn't a thing, it's a process


[/ QUOTE ]

But why this process? It isn't logically required, it's contingent, so how did it get here, evolve, come into being? If it's always existed, why is it there and not some other process? Or any process?

[/ QUOTE ]
Make NotReady take a physics primer first. He needs to learn to think in a rational way about the mechanisms behind current cell biology (God created or not) before he'll have a hope of understanding this stuff. For most people this stuff is intuitive but apparently not for NR. His brain would go put-put and die when confronted with implications of the phylogenic tree.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Make NotReady take a physics primer first


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll do it for a measley 10K.





In advance, of course.

[Phil153]

I guess you can make do without. Just had a look at talkorigins and there's some decent cell physics snippets buried in there.

[David Sklansky]

Now that Not Ready has accepted, it would be a travesty of justice if he didn't get the first shot at your 5k. If it is true that he needs to learn basic physics to pass your final exam he could do that in a week. I have spoken.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I guess you can make do without. Just had a look at talkorigins and there's some decent cell physics snippets buried in there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Since I don't have to buy a book I'll reduce my rate to 9.5K.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I guess you can make do without. Just had a look at talkorigins and there's some decent cell physics snippets buried in there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Since I don't have to buy a book I'll reduce my rate to 9.5K.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ugh. 5K is very generous for the amount of material at talkorigins + whatever side reading you'd need to do /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you can think in a rational way and can understand basic engineering concepts, then the material should be digestable to you without any physics or other reading. It's all written for laymen. Even Sklansky could grasp it. I just figured you'd have some trouble with the above based on your comments in this thread.

Please ignore me and carry on.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

then the material should be digestable to you without any physics or other reading


[/ QUOTE ]

U sayin i gotta unnerstanit? fergitit.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Evolution isn't a thing, it's a process


[/ QUOTE ]

But why this process? It isn't logically required, it's contingent, so how did it get here, evolve, come into being? If it's always existed, why is it there and not some other process? Or any process?

Just a hint on all this - if God is absolute, eternal Creator who created the laws of nature then the laws of nature don't apply to Him and so He doesn't need a creator Himself since He wasn't created.

Or stated differently, God doesn't need an explanation because He is the explanation for everything else. Difficult to make that case for evolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with parts and disagree with parts but it's unimportant because I screwed up and hijacked this thread that's about something else so I'll say no more.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure there is no empirical evidence for speciation through natural selection



I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok post it. The fruit fly thing said that after 1/2 flies fed sugar and 1/2 flies fed starch for generations they preferred to mate with their "own" kind, but it didn't say that it was impossible for a sugar to reproduce with a starch, so I don't think that qualifies as speciation.

[/ QUOTE ]
There were many, many experiments cited in the book I was lent more than just one fruit fly thing - it's true that the definitions of speciation were different for many of them and that some were stronger than others. There were also broader discussions of speciation in general.

If you're interested I'll send you the title and author - I found it quite heavy going and didnt have the background knowlegde to fully digest it but it came highly recommended.

[Trier]

The trouble with discussions such as this is having to wade through the often belligerent ignorance of the religious types. As usual this extends to even the most basic terminology.

First of all, the universe did not EVOLVE. The things that exist in the universe DEVELOPED through various physical processes, of which the most important is SYNCRETION. ‘Evolution’ refers always and only to ORGANIC processes, that is to say, processes where matter reaches a level of complexity both in its constitution and behaviour that we ascribe to these types of matter the quality called ‘life’.

The RTs also need to learn the difference between ‘assertion’ and ‘demonstration’. The evidence for evolution is in, it is enormous and it is demonstrated. The vast bulk of that evidence is of two types – palaeontological and biological (since Watson & Crick additional genetic evidence is increasing daily).

The palaeontological evidence is the fossil record, and it is complete. The ‘Tree of Life’ has had the vast bulk of its features described in such detail that when modern palaeontologists discover new species in the fossil record, it is the equivalent of adding leaves to a gigantic tree.

The biological evidence is likewise gigantic, starting from Darwin’s original observations of finches on the South American mainland and on the Galapagos Islands. The Galapagos finches had originated on the mainland, but had evolved in such a different direction that they were no longer able to mate with mainland finches. They had become new species. Biological observations and experiments since then are now up into the millions.

As I say, all this evidence is demonstrated and is available for anyone to inspect and reproduce. Mere assertion that all this evidence is wrong won’t be enough.

If you want the $5K, you will have to refute each and every piece of evidence one by one. I suggest you allow yourself some time.

[yurk]

[ QUOTE ]


The palaeontological evidence is the fossil record, and it is complete. The ‘Tree of Life’ has had the vast bulk of its features described in such detail that when modern palaeontologists discover new species in the fossil record, it is the equivalent of adding leaves to a gigantic tree.






[/ QUOTE ]

What about the Cambrian explosion and it's impact on Darwinian theory in the fossil record?

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
it's true that the definitions of speciation were different for many of them and that some were stronger than others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it seems to me that if the fruit fly study found that after n generations that group A and group B could no longer interbreed successfully then I think that would be total proof of speciation and really a proof of evolution because it would show two different species coming out of a "mother" species.

I am pretty confident that nothing of the sort has ever been observed but if I am wrong I would really like to see it. If I am wrong I would expect it to be because of the new genetic engineering tech, btw.

[yurk]

Just to be clear with the OP intent. Are we debating all forms of evolution or just macro-evolution, and allowing micro-evolution?

[KUJustin]

Am I still up for this or was I displaced by more interesting candidates?

For the record I'm still broke and a "fundamentalist" Christian.