A hand from the FTOPS ME

[Bond18]

This hand happened early, its probably a lot easier if we're in a 2 or 3 way pot, but with 5 it kinda gets complicated. His range could be awful big here, idk, what do you guys think?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $20/$40
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Hero: $4275
UTG+1: $4790
MP1: $4775
MP2: $4850
MP3: $6965
CO: $6920
Button: $4850
SB: $4965
BB: $2610

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $140</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($700, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $560</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to $1800</font>, SB folds, BB folds, hero?


BTW mods, you probably already know this but make sure to get a HSMTT link on the left bar, i didn't even see this forum till italianfx pointed it out, thanks for getting us this forum guys.

[BadgerPro]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW mods, you probably already know this but make sure to get a HSMTT link on the left bar, i didn't even see this forum till italianfx pointed it out, thanks for getting us this forum guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much every forum that's started out has taken awhile to get a link on the left. MTTc was the same way. Give it a few days and it'll be there.

[homanga]

I think a combo draw with AdXd is likely here. I think your choices are push or fold. I don't like a call here.

Leaning toward fold as a coinflip is not worth it here.

[timex]

I always tell myself they can have a draw, or even like 99 here a fair bit, but they never do. I really think folding on this board is probably correct.

[BadgerPro]

[ QUOTE ]
I always tell myself they can have a draw, or even like 99 here a fair bit, but they never do. I really think folding on this board is probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Timex put it well here. I think most of the time you're at best 50/50. This is a horrible board for KK in a multiway pot.

Is anybody really against just check/folding this flop as weak/tight as that seams. This is just a horrible board for KK and against 4 other players does it even pay to try and continue?

I think check/calling and seeing if it gets HU and stacking off on a safe turn would be a better way to proceed. I rarely see a cbet taking this down and we are rarely gonna know where we are on most turns.

[NoahSD]

I think flop's a clear bet.

How strong is the field in the FTOPS ME? I feel like this is a shove in the million where the fact that people overvalue hands like crazy on this flop probably outweighs the fact that our hand's really not strong at all, but a fold in a stronger tourney like the fuper.

[unconscious]

Hate getting bagged by some donk w/ 44 here. Too many stingers out there w/ 5PF. I agree with Timex and Badger.

[BadgerPro]

[ QUOTE ]
Hate getting bagged by some donk w/ 44 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

When we stack off and he shows us 44 we're the donk. IMO. Unless I have knowledge that the villain is a donk and will raise 66-QQ here I have to toss this.

[unconscious]

Yea you're right Badger didn't think of it that way. I guess I just meant 22,33,44 are definite possibilities here.

[timex]

I think if anyone folds 44 in MP1's shoes, they aren't good.

[JSchnett]

He doesn't raise 88-JJ like this very often, I don't belive very many poeple raise a utg raiser who cbets that flop with mid-high pps even JJ, expecially with 2 people behind him. he is much more likely to have a set. the board is too draw heavy and has too many people behind him to call with a set so I expect him to raise.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Hate getting bagged by some donk w/ 44 here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you're trying to say.

[unconscious]

In a very poor (and wrong) way what I'm trying to say is I don't think you can push here after the re-raise. The donk isn't ever the PF caller w/ 44, it's you if you push after the re-raise. Again I actually didn't see it that way so I guess I learned something and also realized that I'm the donk.

[gobboboy]

Fold. You're slightly ahead or absolutely crushed every time, there isn't enough in the pot to justify a shove.

[Hoop Addict]

I'm not sure that non-high stakes players are allowed to post here, but I'm agreeing with most of the advice &amp; folding this.

You have nil FE if you push IMO &amp; I don't think the avg villain is re-popping you here without a strong draw or a set.

So IMO it's a set who wants to get you to ditch your XdXd or it's AdXd or 56 suited (not nec. diamonds, but a lot of people seem to play mid-low suited connectors).

The only hands you're ahead of IMO are 66-99 or maybe TT. I'm thinking JJ &amp; QQ re-raise you pre-flop more often than not.

[gobboboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always tell myself they can have a draw, or even like 99 here a fair bit, but they never do. I really think folding on this board is probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Timex put it well here. I think most of the time you're at best 50/50. This is a horrible board for KK in a multiway pot.

Is anybody really against just check/folding this flop as weak/tight as that seams. This is just a horrible board for KK and against 4 other players does it even pay to try and continue?

I think check/calling and seeing if it gets HU and stacking off on a safe turn would be a better way to proceed. I rarely see a cbet taking this down and we are rarely gonna know where we are on most turns.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/calling would be really bad as it turns our hand faceup and makes them in control of the pot, since they have the lead and they're in position. Betting for value is correct but if you get raised it's an easy fold.

If you bet the flop, get one caller and the turn is a brick, you check. If they bet, call and check/fold the river. If they check, bet the river for value. Essentially, if they put an aggressive action in you need to be extremely careful because more often than not, people play extremely weaktight.

[RandALLin]

everyone knows what my answer is

[aejones]

don't fold.

no way in hell.

[BadgerPro]

[ QUOTE ]

Check/calling would be really bad as it turns our hand faceup and makes them in control of the pot, since they have the lead and they're in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, guess I didn't finish my thought/line completely. Check the flop and if someone bets make the call and lead out/jam on a safe turn. Obviously we don't get the sets out that have us crushed but we do have a chance to get a one pair/straight draw, bare flush draw, and possibly an AdXd but I think the last one still comes along (as the others might too but now we are ahead in the hand)

Also, this line could possibly get a donk that does happen to raise 66-QQ on this flop to come along hoping we are on the flush draw. (even though I think we rarely see 66-QQ like I said before).

I don't think I take this line often but I do think it is an option and I personally like it better than leading. Maybe it's a little too FPS.

[Mench]

Mench,

please read the sticky at the top.

Badger

[TheNewf]

Just fold I guess this is a set sooo much. I don't hate checking the flop but I think betting has to be better. If for some reason I didn't want to fold I think calling and pushing a safe turn card is better than pushing the flop. I have no problem folding getting 3:1 if an A,5,6 or diamond comes off on the turn.

edit: I guess it's kinda hard for him to have a hand with the 5d here that doesn't already have us beat so maybe push an offsuit 6, who knows he might even fold a better hand.

[Crispy]

If he had pushed, I would probably call here way more often than I fold. At least with pushes I can convince myself he just has a pair/draw or flush draw.

[Cornell Fiji]

I like a fold too... well I don't like it but I think that it is the correct play.

People are not likely to get out of line against an EP raiser unless they have the goods and since this is a 5 way pot the very least that he has is Ad Xd and way too often this is a set / 56 / the wheel.

[curtains]

I'd go allin and hope for the best. People on FullTilt are donkeys and people that play MTTs are donkeys.