The Second Commmandment

[rainonacongadrum]

"You shall not make for yourself any graven image, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them [i.e., the graven images]; for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." (Exodus 20:4-6, adapted from the NASV)

I was talking to a friend about the second commandment. If read literally it seems like it is saying that statues/paintings/cartoons are "sinful":


You shall not make for yourself [...] any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Below is how our conversation went:

him
"i t means do not make idols of any other Gods.... The Hebrews while in egypt were always making false idols of what they thought powerful beings looked like such as beings who controled the air and sea....

i hope that answers your question"

me
"Yes but, read like "You shall not make for yourself [...] any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth" it sounds like it's saying you shall not make for yourself any likeness of anything pretty much. Like statues, cartoons, anything. Do some interpret it that way? That seems to be part of what it says from an outsiders perspective."

him
"like i said before it is addressing the issues of that time period that is how we look at the bible its called hermenutics... you have to look at what it means to them then look how we apply it to our sleves.... so it is just in regaurd to false idols because they were stuggeling with that at that time."

me
"So are you saying that the second commandment does not apply to modern day? Or are you saying that only half of it applies today, viz., the false idol part. It seems to me that there are two components. First, is the not constructing/worshipping false idols component. Second is the component of not making ANY LIKENESS OF WHAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR EARTH BENEATH OR WATER UNDER THE EARTH. So, the second component would presumably apply to paintings/art that may have existed at the time if we choose to take the second commandment literally. Do you see how I am interpreting it this way based on that sentence ("any likeness...under the earth)?"

him
"i see how you interpreting but what i am saying you just dont look at a passage and say whis is how i think it sounds you have to look at who it was written to and how to apply it now,,... it is not say litterally do not make paitings it is saying to not have things you worship more than God.. you see you are looking at the way you want to not the way it is..."



Just curious how right/wrong I am in thinking that the second commandment pretty clearly states that statues/portraits/cartoons/movies (possibly) are "sinful."

[Taraz]

I think that your friend is right, but I also think that many Christians don't look at the context in the majority of cases. It seems like they only do this when something Bible asserts is utterly ridiculous.

So you make a good point as far as pointing out that many want to take some parts of scripture very literally while explaining away the parts they don't like or that are incompatible with modern times.

I guess it depends on how you want to read it. A more persuasive argument for your side of the argument is to look at something that your friend actually does believe and ask him how he can be sure that he's supposed to be reading that passage literally.

[samsonite2100]

Doesn't the 2nd commandment require you to own guns?

[kerowo]

Perhaps "Graven Image" only applies to other gods, and whether they were in the sky; like sun gods, or on the earth; like sacred trees or coyotes or giant meat balls, God didn't want the competition. The books only been translated about a million times.

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
Do some interpret it that way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many muslims interprate it this way. That is why their "art" consists of mosaics and caligraphy. This was part of what caused the cartoon riots.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do some interpret it that way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many muslims interprate it this way. That is why their "art" consists of mosaics and caligraphy. This was part of what caused the cartoon riots.

[/ QUOTE ]


Is it this commandment that they cite, or is it some specific part of the Koran? Honest question, I never really considered it could be based on the Ten Commandments (although I understand the OT is holy to Muslims).

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Just curious how right/wrong I am in thinking that the second commandment pretty clearly states that statues/portraits/cartoons/movies (possibly) are "sinful."


[/ QUOTE ]
See this. (http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gravenimages.html)

[vhawk01]

Is it possible for me to understand anything, from a moral or religious standpoint, simply from reading the Bible? What % of the passages are entirely unclear (or in fact contradictory to the common interpretation) unless I have some measure of knowledge of world history, human psychology, and so forth?

IOW, if the Bible was the only book I ever read, how close would my interpretation of God's message be to yours, NR? Pretend that I am a normal human being and not a sinful atheist heathen, and am honestly reading the Bible.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Pretend that I am a normal human being and not a sinful atheist heathen, and am honestly reading the Bible.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are only two kinds of humans - Christian and non-Christian.

Anyone can understand anything in the Bible as far as the important doctrines are concerned. Accepting it is another story.

I want to repeat something I've said before as to interpretation - it's very important and I don't think it's getting through.

Read the account of the fall in Genesis. Satan deliberately misrepresented and lied about what God had told Adam and Eve. God's command was clear and any child could understand it. "Don't eat or die". But Satan misinterpreted it and changed it, and Eve agreed with him. She did not have a sin nature at the time. Why she went along with Satan we don't know. The point is simply that any propositional statement can be misinterpreted, twisted, changed. There is no possible way for God to communicate anything to us that is free from this possibility. There is no possible way for any communication to occur that is free from this possibility. Therefore the argument that the Bible can't be God's word because there are so many interpretations is completely specious.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pretend that I am a normal human being and not a sinful atheist heathen, and am honestly reading the Bible.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are only two kinds of humans - Christian and non-Christian.

Anyone can understand anything in the Bible as far as the important doctrines are concerned. Accepting it is another story.

I want to repeat something I've said before as to interpretation - it's very important and I don't think it's getting through.

Read the account of the fall in Genesis. Satan deliberately misrepresented and lied about what God had told Adam and Eve. God's command was clear and any child could understand it. "Don't eat or die". But Satan misinterpreted it and changed it, and Eve agreed with him. She did not have a sin nature at the time. Why she went along with Satan we don't know. The point is simply that any propositional statement can be misinterpreted, twisted, changed. There is no possible way for God to communicate anything to us that is free from this possibility. There is no possible way for any communication to occur that is free from this possibility. Therefore the argument that the Bible can't be God's word because there are so many interpretations is completely specious.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are telling me it would be blatantly obvious that art and cartoons do not violate the second commandment if I knew absolutely nothing about history, and solely read the Bible?

Or are you saying the second commandment isnt that important?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

You are telling me it would be blatantly obvious that art and cartoons do not violate the second commandment if I knew absolutely nothing about history, and solely read the Bible?


[/ QUOTE ]



You can err on the side of safety.

[ QUOTE ]

Or are you saying the second commandment isnt that important?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is silly and why I mostly don't respond to you.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You are telling me it would be blatantly obvious that art and cartoons do not violate the second commandment if I knew absolutely nothing about history, and solely read the Bible?


[/ QUOTE ]



You can err on the side of safety.

[ QUOTE ]

Or are you saying the second commandment isnt that important?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is silly and why I mostly don't respond to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats your prerogative. I think you've confirmed my suspicion anyway, which is that a thorough, honest, 'Christian' reading of the Bible, and only the Bible, would lead someone to consider Michelangelo a grave sinner.

The reason I asked if it wasn't that important is because you added the caveat that all the IMPORTANT doctrines can be deduced from the Bible alone.

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do some interpret it that way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many muslims interprate it this way. That is why their "art" consists of mosaics and caligraphy. This was part of what caused the cartoon riots.

[/ QUOTE ]


Is it this commandment that they cite, or is it some specific part of the Koran? Honest question, I never really considered it could be based on the Ten Commandments (although I understand the OT is holy to Muslims).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I had assumed that the ten comandments are in the Koran, but now that I think about it, I don't have any reason to think that.

[rainonacongadrum]

I'm still confused I guess.

"...read like "You shall not make for yourself [...] any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth" it sounds like it's saying you shall not make for yourself any likeness of anything pretty much."

This thread really hasn't convinced me of otherwise. Am I being too literal?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
There are only two kinds of humans - Christian and non-Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is not right NotReady. There are at least three types: non-christians, chrsitians who believe the bible and christians who would rather believe tektonics web site. You seem to be part of the latter. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still confused I guess.

"...read like "You shall not make for yourself [...] any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth" it sounds like it's saying you shall not make for yourself any likeness of anything pretty much."

This thread really hasn't convinced me of otherwise. Am I being too literal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so. Heaven above, the earth beneath, and in the water under the earth doesn't sound like anything that we can actually find on Earth. It sounds like he is talking about heaven, hell, and Poseidon or something like that. I mean, you're being a little ridiculous in this instance. From the perspective of a person living in ancient times these conditions don't have anything to do with the observable universe at that time.

I still think a more effective strategy on your part would be the one I advocated in my first response in this thread.

[Silent A]

I think the literal is the only reasonable interpretation. Notice it says "on the earth beneath" so it's talking about the surface of the Earth. Also, I'm pretty sure that "the water under the earth" means the oceans, seas, and lakes (these are below the surface of the earth).

The Hebrews were traditionally against anything even remotely hinting at emulating the religions of their neighbours (thus the instructions not to eat cheese with meat even though they are individually acceptable). I think this commandment is saying "don't make statues of the golden calf, and just to be on the safe side, don't make statues of anything else around you either".

Also, IIRC, there were Jewish sects in Roman times who went around destoying statues of Caesar because they felt they violated this commandment.

Does anyone out there know if archeologists find any significant statues etc. in ancient Hebrew ruins (and here I'm not talking about the numerous instances where they supposedly reverted to worshipping Moag, Baal, etc.)?

Finally, while the Koran doesn't have the 10 commandments in one place in its text, it has similar statements scattered throughout. I think it's safe to say that Islamic reluctance to make any images is at least inspired from the Biblical second commandment (Muslims would probably say that the Koran clarified what Allah meant).

[Taraz]

Eh, I don't know. I probably shouldn't have made that post last night, I wasn't exactly in my right mind.

I think it's more about idols to be worshiped than simply figurines and statues. I don't think they were too concerned about Barbies and GI Joes.

[Silent A]

The thing is that the ancient Hebrews tended to be really anal about not doing anything that could be construed as emulating the religons of their neighbours.

If a culture could ban eating meat and cheese together in a daily meal only because a neighbouring tribe cooked lambs in milk during religous ceremonies then I think it's perfectly consistent that they would ban "barbies and GI Joes" if their neighbours worshipped statues and figurines.

[jogsxyz]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps "Graven Image" only applies to other gods, and whether they were in the sky; like sun gods, or on the earth; like sacred trees or coyotes or giant meat balls, God didn't want the competition. The books only been translated about a million times.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought. Don't worship golden calves.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is that the ancient Hebrews tended to be really anal about not doing anything that could be construed as emulating the religons of their neighbours.

If a culture could ban eating meat and cheese together in a daily meal only because a neighbouring tribe cooked lambs in milk during religous ceremonies then I think it's perfectly consistent that they would ban "barbies and GI Joes" if their neighbours worshipped statues and figurines.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't even know why I'm arguing this point. Maybe the 2nd commandment does say that you can't make any images whatsoever and religious scholars over the centuries have interpreted it to mean something different.

I'm all for dispelling literal readings of the Bible by showing them to be ridiculous, so maybe I should just be agreeing with you.

[Silent A]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the 2nd commandment does say that you can't make any images whatsoever and religious scholars over the centuries have interpreted it to mean something different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have they? I'm only interested in the how the early Hebrews meant when they wrote this commandment. What Christians think it means for themselves is irrelevent to me.