Just a couple Christian questions...

[shhhnake_eyes]

The real question is: Does God know the future?

If so, He knows when you are born and when, how you die. If he knows this although you can say you have free will, do you really? Obviously he knows everything thats going to happen in your life.

If he knows everything going to happen in your life, why even have you born... just so you can suffer an enternal death in hell.

Along those lines, if he knows the future, why didnt he know about Satan and that he would turn on him and do this? I mean he could have just ended it right there.

ALSO: If God is ALL GOOD.. he created everything.. he also created Satan then right? (or is that wrong im not sure??) but if he did create Satan, Satan should have Gods characteristics. How did Satan get some sort of notion to be "bad" and revolt if he got everything from God. Where did this "idea" of revolting come from?

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I guess the most important thing that influences religion is culture and family. For instance, growing up in a community with nothing but christian surroundings, you are prolly going to be christian. just as if you are born in Iraq with every single person around you Muslim. Believe it or not, you are probably going to be a Muslim. Now Christians say they have a chance to be converted, but how could they possibly be??
Ask all of the christians if they have read the Koran, I bet its less than 1 percent. Why? Because they think their religion is right just as the Muslims.

What about tribes living in the Amazon Rain Forest or something. THey have no electricity, no finding out of information, no nothing. How do they find the true "Christian" God??

[PastorDavidDD]

[ QUOTE ]
The real question is: Does God know the future?

If so, He knows when you are born and when, how you die. If he knows this although you can say you have free will, do you really? Obviously he knows everything thats going to happen in your life.

If he knows everything going to happen in your life, why even have you born... just so you can suffer an enternal death in hell.

Along those lines, if he knows the future, why didnt he know about Satan and that he would turn on him and do this? I mean he could have just ended it right there.

ALSO: If God is ALL GOOD.. he created everything.. he also created Satan then right? (or is that wrong im not sure??) but if he did create Satan, Satan should have Gods characteristics. How did Satan get some sort of notion to be "bad" and revolt if he got everything from God. Where did this "idea" of revolting come from?

-----------------

I guess the most important thing that influences religion is culture and family. For instance, growing up in a community with nothing but christian surroundings, you are prolly going to be christian. just as if you are born in Iraq with every single person around you Muslim. Believe it or not, you are probably going to be a Muslim. Now Christians say they have a chance to be converted, but how could they possibly be??
Ask all of the christians if they have read the Koran, I bet its less than 1 percent. Why? Because they think their religion is right just as the Muslims.

What about tribes living in the Amazon Rain Forest or something. THey have no electricity, no finding out of information, no nothing. How do they find the true "Christian" God??

[/ QUOTE ]

Q1: "The real question is: Does God know the future?" A1: Yes, God knows the future.

Q2: If so, He knows when you are born and when, how you die. If he knows this although you can say you have free will, do you really? A2: Yes, we have free will.

Q3: Along those lines, if he knows the future, why didnt he know about Satan and that he would turn on him and do this? A3: God did know.

Q4: ALSO: If God is ALL GOOD.. he created everything.. he also created Satan then right? (or is that wrong im not sure??)... A4: You're right. God created Satan.

Q5: "...but if he did create Satan, Satan should have Gods characteristics. How did Satan get some sort of notion to be bad and revolt if he got everything from God. Where did this idea of revolting come from?" A5: Satan has free will, too, and is allowed to get ideas.

Q6: "I guess the most important thing that influences religion is culture and family. For instance, growing up in a community with nothing but christian surroundings, you are prolly going to be christian. just as if you are born in Iraq with every single person around you Muslim. Believe it or not, you are probably going to be a Muslim. Now Christians say they have a chance to be converted, but how could they possibly be??" A6: God sees the heart and will provide the Christian (or another way) for any willing heart seeking the truth. Muslims can become Christians, and some have.

Q7: "Ask all of the christians if they have read the Koran, I bet its less than 1 percent. Why?" A: "Because they think their religion is right..."

Q8: "What about tribes living in the Amazon Rain Forest or something. THey have no electricity, no finding out of information, no nothing. How do they find the true Christian God?? A8: See answer to question 6, but substitute 'Tribes in Amazon Rain Forest' for 'Muslims'.

[godBoy]

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The real question is: Does God know the future?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

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If so, He knows when you are born and when, how you die. If he knows this although you can say you have free will, do you really? Obviously he knows everything thats going to happen in your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know that when you decide to do something you can, this is free will.

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if he knows the future, why didnt he know about Satan and that he would turn on him and do this? I mean he could have just ended it right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

He did know about Satan, you need to look at the reasons why God created anything at all, I believe that it was for his pleasure and family. If I gave people the ability to reject me would they choose to worship me?

[ QUOTE ]
ALSO: If God is ALL GOOD.. he created everything.. he also created Satan then right? (or is that wrong im not sure??) but if he did create Satan, Satan should have Gods characteristics. How did Satan get some sort of notion to be "bad" and revolt if he got everything from God. Where did this "idea" of revolting come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, no a created thing does not have to share your characteristics. The reason for Satans fall was pride, he wanted to be like God. The same reason that enticed Adam and eve 'eat the fruit and you will become like God'.
It's the same reasoning as before, he created people with the ability to choose right or wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the most important thing that influences religion is culture and family. For instance, growing up in a community with nothing but christian surroundings, you are prolly going to be christian. just as if you are born in Iraq with every single person around you Muslim. Believe it or not, you are probably going to be a Muslim. Now Christians say they have a chance to be converted, but how could they possibly be??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think that if I grew up in Iraq I would probably be a Muslim. But I think that any person of any faith who truly seeks after God will find God. I know of a person who had never heard the christian message but found himself saying the name of Jesus when seeking God. There is also a huge number of people who have testified about a biblical consistency with near death experiences.

Anyone, anywhere can find God. With or without christian teaching/influences.

[shhhnake_eyes]

Q1: "The real question is: Does God know the future?" A1: Yes, God knows the future.

Q2: If so, He knows when you are born and when, how you die. If he knows this although you can say you have free will, do you really? A2: Yes, we have free will.

Q4: ALSO: If God is ALL GOOD.. he created everything.. he also created Satan then right? (or is that wrong im not sure??)... A4: You're right. God created Satan.

Ok so he created Satan.. for what reason?
God can't possibly be all good if he gave us free will. Do you know how many unborn kids (that will be born in the future) are going to hell because God already knows what is going to happen to them (go to hell). Therefore, if God knows what they will "choose" why even create them to let them make that mistake. Also, how is it "free will" if God already knows your path?

[BCPVP]

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Ok so he created Satan.. for what reason?
God can't possibly be all good if he gave us free will. Do you know how many unborn kids (that will be born in the future) are going to hell because God already knows what is going to happen to them (go to hell). Therefore, if God knows what they will "choose" why even create them to let them make that mistake. Also, how is it "free will" if God already knows your path?

[/ QUOTE ]
I won't claim to know why God created Satan. Perhaps it was to offer the "other" choice. As to the rest of your question:

" Why should God make people knowing they are going to hell forever?

This question raises many issues. If God is all loving, why would He send people to hell? What is hell? Is it a place of eternal torment? Why create creatures knowing they will end up in an eternity of damnation? Is God helpless to save them all?

Often times, skeptics try and present an idea so that fairness and compassion necessitate that the Christian God cannot be real. For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. As one skeptic put it, "If God truly loves us (this sacrificial love you talk about) then he would simply say 'I do not want the child to be born'. He is in control and has that ability doesn't he? As I would not wish any of my children who I love to go through a life of agonizing pain." The main problem with such an approach is that it is overly simplistic and based on emotionalism, not scripture. So, let's look at what the Word of God says.

First of all, when God made Adam, He made him good. Adam had the freedom to choose to obey or disobey God. Adam is the one who rebelled. God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion. It would be like a parent having a child knowing that the child would eventually disobey the parent. Does this means that the parent is responsible for the child's rebellion when it occurs because the parent knew it would happen? Of course not. Furthermore, if the parent has more children, does he/she not know that some children may very well turn out good and others bad? Should the parents then not have children because some of them might turn out bad? The skeptic, if he is consistent, would urge parents not to have any children at all lest some of them turn out bad.

But the skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? If the critic says he only want those people born who go to heaven, then how are they truly free and how would that fulfill the ultimate plan of God to sacrifice His Son for the redemption of mankind?

Third, God could have reasons for sending people to hell that we cannot understand.

Fourth, God is just and always does what is right. Therefore, sending people to hell is the right thing to do, especially when we understand that God is eternally holy and those who sin against God incur an infinite offense because the infinite God is the one who is offended.

Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell. They go there because they are not covered by the sacrifice of Christ. Whether or not they are created or not does not effect the fact that sinners must be punished; otherwise, the holiness and righteousness of God mean nothing."

http://www.carm.org/questions/hell.htm

[MidGe]

BCPVP,

As I said before, even if Adam did commit a sin, it is a weird sort of justice that condemns all its descendents.

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God did not make him rebel and God is not responsible for Adam's rebellion

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Neither did I or you or any others. Your god is monster when he is in a rage...

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, the Bible simply tells us that people will go to hell

[/ QUOTE ] Hence the bible must be wrong.. qed

[BCPVP]

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As I said before, even if Adam did commit a sin, it is a weird sort of justice that condemns all its descendents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Federal Headship (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/federal.htm)
Weird to you doesn't mean wrong, btw.

[ QUOTE ]
Neither did I or you or any others. Your god is just for punishing the wicked.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

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Hence the bible must be wrong.. qed

[/ QUOTE ]
How does that follow?

[MidGe]

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As I said before, even if Adam did commit a sin, it is a weird sort of justice that condemns all its descendents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Federal Headship (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/federal.htm)
Weird to you doesn't mean wrong, btw.



[/ QUOTE ]


It is so wrong.. that is why some christians and their god are no better than al-quaeda. Sort of pre-civilised, one could say.


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Neither did I or you or any others. Your god is just for punishing the wicked.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP



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Don't bother fix my post... how can someone who has done nothing be wicked. It is obviously the view of your sect that all unborn /images/graemlins/smile.gif and born children are wicked. I hope it is only a small sect's and not a majority of christians' view, for if it is, I give little chance to civilisation. To me your sect is an abomination. You have been manipulated by devious people in believing that a bible that was put together a few hundred years after jesus, by barely civilised, yet people with huge political and economic interests, is the litteral word of your god!!! Thats is a demonic act for a god believer judging by todays results and your opinion.



[ QUOTE ]

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Hence the bible must be wrong.. qed

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How does that follow?

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Sorry, hence your and your interpretation of your bible is no better tha al-quaeda, it is an act of terrorism towards innocents.

[BCPVP]

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It is so wrong.. that is why some christians and their god are no better than al-quaeda. Sort of pre-civilised, one could say.

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Is not.

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It is obviously the view of your sect that all unborn and born children are prone to sin.

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Sorry, hence your and your interpretation of your bible is no better tha al-quaeda, it is an act of terrorism towards innocents.

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God will sort out innocent from guilty. Don't you think it's a little out of line to be comparing me to the likes of al Qaeda? You know almost nothing about me. I suppose I could go around calling every atheist the equivalent of Stalin, but I don't.

[godBoy]

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how can someone who has done nothing be wicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

sinful, not wicked.

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It is obviously the view of your sect that all unborn and born children are wicked. I hope it is only a small sect's and not a majority of christians' view, for if it is, I give little chance to civilisation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the church a sect, a grave misrepresentation of the truth.
But, I'm glad you recognise that civilisation has a huge christian influence.

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To me your sect is an abomination. You have been manipulated by devious people in believing that a bible that was put together a few hundred years after jesus, by barely civilised, yet people with huge political and economic interests, is the litteral word of your god!!!

[/ QUOTE ]


This is so far from the truth, merely MidGe ranting...
The book of Mark was written no later that A.D.60
These people with 'huge political and economic interests' probably died martyrs deaths. These people believed in what they were doing, they believed in Jesus' message and were convinced that it was worth dying for.

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Thats is a demonic act for a god believer judging by todays results and your opinion.

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You're a nufty.

[MidGe]

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It is so wrong.. that is why some christians and their god are no better than al-quaeda. Sort of pre-civilised, one could say.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is not.

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It is obviously the view of your sect that all unborn and born children are prone to sin.

[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't fix my post. Now we are guilty because of being prone to sin... not even because we have sinned. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous to morality and civilisation.

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Sorry, hence your and your interpretation of your bible is no better tha al-quaeda, it is an act of terrorism towards innocents.

[/ QUOTE ]
God will sort out innocent from guilty. Don't you think it's a little out of line to be comparing me to the likes of al Qaeda? You know almost nothing about me. I suppose I could go around calling every atheist the equivalent of Stalin, but I don't.

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I am an atheist but I think Stalin was a monster. If you can't see that yout conception of god is monstruous, imo, you are indeed no better than al-quaeda and ought to be treated the same way, less we gat another inquisitions, burning of witches to determine whether they were witches or not, and other atrocities, in the name of your conception of god.

[MidGe]

godboy,
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

To me your sect is an abomination. You have been manipulated by devious people in believing that a bible that was put together a few hundred years after jesus, by barely civilised, yet people with huge political and economic interests, is the litteral word of your god!!!



[/ QUOTE ]


This is so far from the truth, merely MidGe ranting...
The book of Mark was written no later that A.D.60
These people with 'huge political and economic interests' probably died martyrs deaths. These people believed in what they were doing, they believed in Jesus' message and were convinced that it was worth dying for.


[/ QUOTE ]

Geez god"boy", you are ignorant.. I wasn't talking about any specific books of the bible, but what your and your ilk takes as "the" bible wasn't decided till many centuries later by people that indeed had huge political and economic interetest in what was what.

I guess when there is no defense left, twist the facts or answers other questions. Next you will tell me that this is a very christian thing to do. LOL

[BCPVP]

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Don't fix my post. Now we are guilty because of being prone to sin... not even because we have sinned. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous to morality and civilisation.

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Chill out. Who said anything about "guilty"? I said prone to sin. We are born into sin for the reasons stated in the link I posted.

And it IS funny to think that following a man prone to saying things like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." is considered dangerous to morality and civilization. Who are you kidding?

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I am an atheist but I think Stalin was a monster. If you can't see that yout conception of god is monstruous, imo, you are indeed no better than al-quaeda and ought to be treated the same way, less we gat another inquisitions, burning of witches to determine whether they were witches or not, and other atrocities, in the name of your conception of god.

[/ QUOTE ]
Al Qaeda kill and subjugate people for not believing what they believe. I have never and will never do anything like that. Their god asks them to wage war on others for not believing what they believe. Their religion asks that people who ridicule a prophet (not even a divine figure) be killed. Your comparison of me to them is as fair as one of you to Stalin is, which I think is unfair. Can we rise above these childish insults?

You don't seem very informed on Christianity and I wish you'd look into it with a little more of an open mind than the bigoted one you present here. Also try and refrain from calling people you disagree with the equivalent of al Qaeda. It's bad form.

[MidGe]

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Also try and refrain from calling people you disagree with the equivalent of al Qaeda. It's bad form.

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I don't compare people whose opinions I disagree with in any way with al-quaeda, but I definitely, think that those that posit eternal damnations for non-believers, including irresponsible infants, as submitting to a terrorist like concept of god, and indeed only one step away, as has been demonstrated thru the christian centuries, from the behaviour of jihadists. I find their charismatic fervour not remote at all, to the atrocious and mass hysterical scenes I see on my TV in deeply muslim fundamemtalist countries currently in the coverage of the cartoon issue.

[BCPVP]

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I don't compare people whose opinions I disagree with in any way with al-quaeda

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What do you call your last couple of posts comparing me to al Qaeda? That's exactly what you're doing.

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I don't compare people whose opinions I disagree with in any way with al-quaeda, but I definitely, think that those that posit eternal damnations for non-believers, including irresponsible infants

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Who's claiming that infants will be damned? I haven't. I have no idea what God does with infants, but I trust it is just. You are jumping to conclusions at ever increasing speed and absurdness.

As for un-believers, I also think they'll be judged and I trust God will make the right decision. I won't claim to know what that judgement would be.

[MidGe]

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Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? I

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Quoting from your quote in an earlier post.. At least I bothered read it. No point, I see that now.

[BCPVP]

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Second, if someone says that it is wrong for God to allow someone to be born who will go to hell, then would he rather have God remove our freedom to rebel against Him so that no one can be blamed for sin? I

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Quoting from your quote in an earlier post.. At least I bothered read it. No point, I see that now.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you bother to understand it? It speaks directly to some of the questions OP was asking so I thought it might be of some value to him. Could you please contribute positively (not insult other people and compare them to terrorists/ridicule other people's beliefs) to the thread or just leave?

[MidGe]

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Did you bother to understand it? It speaks directly to some of the questions OP was asking so I thought it might be of some value to him. Could you please contribute positively (not insult other people and compare them to terrorists/ridicule other people's beliefs) to the thread or just leave?

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Yes I bothered undertsnd it, and I am totally revolted by his lack of denying it. Asc I siad, one single liitle step away from the horrors we have seen throughout the christians centuries and from al-queada's behaviour.

I feel for those more enlightened christians but I despair for their silent condomning of the view held by extremists.

No I won't go away. Too much at stake. This evil has to be stopped. Someone has to stand up against monstrosities less they become part of life for all.

[BCPVP]

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Yes I bothered understand it, and I am totally revolted by his lack of denying it. As I said, one single little step away from the horrors we have seen throughout the Christians centuries and from al-Queada's behaviour.

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Then what's stopping us? Certainly not a lack of provocation. We've suffered probably worse ridicule for being Christians than Muslims have for being Muslim. This cartoon-fiasco is clear evidence. Are there threads upon threads here in SMP questioning Islam? Why not? There are a billion Muslims in the world so it can't be because it's too small. Frankly, violence towards others seems hardwired into Islam, while if you actually follow what Jesus preached, there should never be violence. To say that Christians are a step away from strapping on suicide packs is to be totally blind to reality and so full of hate and bigotry to see it.

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No I won't go away. Too much at stake. This evil has to be stopped. Someone has to stand up against monstrosities less they become part of life for all.

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I'm not asking you to go away. I'm asking you to stop hijacking the thread and either answer the OP's questions or don't post in this thread.

[MidGe]

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Then what's stopping us? Certainly not a lack of provocation. We've suffered probably worse ridicule for being Christians than Muslims have for being Muslim. This cartoon-fiasco is clear evidence. Are there threads upon threads here in SMP questioning Islam? Why not? There are a billion Muslims in the world so it can't be because it's too small. Frankly, violence towards others seems hardwired into Islam, while if you actually follow what Jesus preached, there should never be violence. To say that Christians are a step away from strapping on suicide packs is to be totally blind to reality and so full of hate and bigotry to see it.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing stopping those extremist christians, that's why I stand up.

There are no contentious posts about islam on 2+2 because there is none claiming that Islam is the true and only way etc... If they did there would be even more answers than on those christians religious claims, I am certain of that.

I am not hijacking the thread since I am ansering points made on this thread. I could point you to some true thread hijacking on this site if you wish.

I also start very few thread, but as a human being, and considering myself civilized, I feel I can only truly manifest my humanity by standing up against terrorism whether currently rooted in a national, religious, theological, political or economic framework. I think those things should be resisted in the bud before they become unmanageable.

Again I have nothing against christians unless they try terrorize me or others either physically or by the mediations of their god and his eternal damnation. You could say, that I am truly on the side of humanity and freedom.

[BCPVP]

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There is nothing stopping those extremist christians, that's why I stand up.

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Something must be stopping them if they aren't beheading people and blowing pizzarias up. Is there some out of control group of Christians purposefully killing innocent people that don't share their beliefs and I just don't know it?

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There are no contentious posts about islam on 2+2 because there is none claiming that Islam is the true and only way etc... If they did there would be even more answers than on those christians religious claims, I am certain of that.

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There are a billion people claiming Islam is the true way. Can't anyone play devil's advocate here amongst such learned men? Sheesh!

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I am not hijacking the thread since I am ansering points made on this thread.

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Just about the only thing you've done in this thread is argue with me about points that were not relevant to the OP's question. That, sir, is hijacking.

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I also start very few thread, but as a human being, and considering myself civilized, I feel I can only truly manifest my humanity by standing up against terrorism whether currently rooted in a national, religious, theological, political or economic framework. I think those things should be resisted in the bud before they become unmanageable.

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I'm not telling you to do otherwise. I agree you should stand up against terrorism but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any significant group of Christian terrorists who are adhering to Christ's message. So you equating of believers of Christianity and cold-blooded killers is plain wrong and insulting.

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Again I have nothing against christians unless they try terrorize me or others either physically or by the mediations of their god and his eternal damnation.

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1) I highly doubt any Christians here have ever physically tried to terrorize you much less any Christians anywhere.
2) Anyone who tries to scare you into Christianity is obviously not following Christ. Christ didn't spread his message by saying "listen to me or you're all going to Hell!"
3) From my reading of this thread, no one has attempted either of the above two methods. So since you have not addressed any of the OP's questions, I have to wonder what your point in this thread has been except to pick a fight.

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You could say, that I am truly on the side of humanity and freedom.

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How about freedom of debate? YOU are trying to stifle it by equivocating Christianity with terrorism. It's a similar tactic used by some right-wing nuts here who if you disagree with they will say you hate America/freedom/apple pie etc. You want to shut down the debate so you don't have to contribute anything of value and neither can anyone else. Is that really what you want? Debate censored?

[MidGe]

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There is nothing stopping those extremist christians, that's why I stand up.

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Something must be stopping them if they aren't beheading people and blowing pizzarias up. Is there some out of control group of Christians purposefully killing innocent people that don't share their beliefs and I just don't know it?


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Yes. and I hope at the end of the day, it is people like myself, standing up gainst and confronting them with their inherent contradictions and thus not allowing them free reins.

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There are no contentious posts about islam on 2+2 because there is none claiming that Islam is the true and only way etc... If they did there would be even more answers than on those christians religious claims, I am certain of that.

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There are a billion people claiming Islam is the true way. Can't anyone play devil's advocate here amongst such learned men? Sheesh!


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Maybe they are not into gambling ot they don't see this forum as part of their ministry.

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I am not hijacking the thread since I am ansering points made on this thread.

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Just about the only thing you've done in this thread is argue with me about points that were not relevant to the OP's question. That, sir, is hijacking.



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You mean to say you have been answering my points, sir? They were answers to your statements. Sorry that those posts of yours were not relevant to the OP. I could not let them go unchallenged.

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I also start very few thread, but as a human being, and considering myself civilized, I feel I can only truly manifest my humanity by standing up against terrorism whether currently rooted in a national, religious, theological, political or economic framework. I think those things should be resisted in the bud before they become unmanageable.

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I'm not telling you to do otherwise. I agree you should stand up against terrorism but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any significant group of Christian terrorists who are adhering to Christ's message. So you equating of believers of Christianity and cold-blooded killers is plain wrong and insulting.



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I am saying that according to history, they are only one step away from atrocious acts, and wherever possible, one should be confronting them with their erroneous, irrational and , especially, contradictory, beliefs.

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Again I have nothing against christians unless they try terrorize me or others either physically or by the mediations of their god and his eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]
1) I highly doubt any Christians here have ever physically tried to terrorize you much less any Christians anywhere.
2) Anyone who tries to scare you into Christianity is obviously not following Christ. Christ didn't spread his message by saying "listen to me or you're all going to Hell!"
3) From my reading of this thread, no one has attempted either of the above two methods. So since you have not addressed any of the OP's questions, I have to wonder what your point in this thread has been except to pick a fight.

[ QUOTE ]
You could say, that I am truly on the side of humanity and freedom.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about freedom of debate? YOU are trying to stifle it by equivocating Christianity with terrorism. It's a similar tactic used by some right-wing nuts here who if you disagree with they will say you hate America/freedom/apple pie etc. You want to shut down the debate so you don't have to contribute anything of value and neither can anyone else. Is that really what you want? Debate censored?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am not.. I am only trying to get a certain brand of christianity to face their contradictions and hence diminish the danger for the whole of humanity regardless of their religion.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing stopping those extremist christians, that's why I stand up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Something must be stopping them if they aren't beheading people and blowing pizzarias up. Is there some out of control group of Christians purposefully killing innocent people that don't share their beliefs and I just don't know it?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought it was implied that you would actually point them out. I should have been more explicit. The rest of that was a lot of tilting at windmills.

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
There are no contentious posts about islam on 2+2 because there is none claiming that Islam is the true and only way etc... If they did there would be even more answers than on those christians religious claims, I am certain of that.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a billion people claiming Islam is the true way. Can't anyone play devil's advocate here amongst such learned men? Sheesh!


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they are not into gambling ot they don't see this forum as part of their ministry.

[/ QUOTE ]
More strawmen. Does someone here consider this forum their ministry? I don't. Ministries in which the non-believers outnumber the believers (by who knows how much) can't really be called ministries. I see several Christians who answer questions from the atheists here, but you can't consider that prosletyzing because the atheists asked!

[ QUOTE ]
I am not hijacking the thread since I am ansering points made on this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just about the only thing you've done in this thread is argue with me about points that were not relevant to the OP's question. That, sir, is hijacking.



[/ QUOTE ]
You mean to say you have been answering my points, sir? They were answers to your statements. Sorry that those posts of yours were not relevant to the OP. I could not let them go unchallenged.

[/ QUOTE ]
They weren't really relevant and they were almost trollish. Couldn't you have at least argued with points that were actually addressed in the OP? I copied and pasted a large article that had several answers to the OP's question so that's why some of the points weren't as relevant as others. Why did you take issue with the non-relevant points instead of the relevent ones? Am I to take that as you agree with the relevant points made in the article? Next time when you challenge a long article someone posts, it would be a good idea to discuss the relevant issues more than the irrelevant. Especially when the relevant issues are the one the OP was asking about and the irrelevant were not.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I also start very few thread, but as a human being, and considering myself civilized, I feel I can only truly manifest my humanity by standing up against terrorism whether currently rooted in a national, religious, theological, political or economic framework. I think those things should be resisted in the bud before they become unmanageable.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not telling you to do otherwise. I agree you should stand up against terrorism but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any significant group of Christian terrorists who are adhering to Christ's message. So you equating of believers of Christianity and cold-blooded killers is plain wrong and insulting.



[/ QUOTE ]

I am saying that according to history, they are only one step away from atrocious acts, and wherever possible, one should be confronting them with their erroneous, irrational and , especially, contradictory, beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I won't say that people aren't capable of atrocious acts. Of course we are. But what you're doing is insane. It's very much like comparing atheists to Stalin. Stalin did some bad stuff in the past. Therefore, anyone who's atheist is capable of what Stalin did, even if they think/claim he's a monster. Has it occurred to you that many Christians think the violence in the name of Christ is monstrous as well? Ponder that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again I have nothing against christians unless they try terrorize me or others either physically or by the mediations of their god and his eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]
1) I highly doubt any Christians here have ever physically tried to terrorize you much less any Christians anywhere.
2) Anyone who tries to scare you into Christianity is obviously not following Christ. Christ didn't spread his message by saying "listen to me or you're all going to Hell!"
3) From my reading of this thread, no one has attempted either of the above two methods. So since you have not addressed any of the OP's questions, I have to wonder what your point in this thread has been except to pick a fight.

[ QUOTE ]
You could say, that I am truly on the side of humanity and freedom.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about freedom of debate? YOU are trying to stifle it by equivocating Christianity with terrorism. It's a similar tactic used by some right-wing nuts here who if you disagree with they will say you hate America/freedom/apple pie etc. You want to shut down the debate so you don't have to contribute anything of value and neither can anyone else. Is that really what you want? Debate censored?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am not.. I am only trying to get a certain brand of christianity to face their contradictions and hence diminish the danger for the whole of humanity regardless of their religion.

[/ QUOTE ]
What "brand" of Christianity? You have been ambiguous this whole thread about what exactly you are arguing against. This seems like an exellent case of someone wildly tilting at windmills and looking foolish for doing so. You haven't pointed out any contradictions. You haven't done much of anything except laud how important you are in the struggle for humanity (delusions of grandeur, anyone?).


Now, do you have any objections to the actual jist of my response to the OP? If so, what are they. If not, go play somewhere while the grown ups talk.

[MidGe]

Since you insist, altough it may be off topic, I'll reply. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]

I thought it was implied that you would actually point them out. I should have been more explicit. The rest of that was a lot of tilting at windmills.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes something is stopping them.., maybe lack of critical mass? So, let's try to keep it that way.

[ QUOTE ]
Does someone here consider this forum their ministry? I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not, others do.. just read the posts.


[ QUOTE ]
Couldn't you have at least argued with points that were actually addressed in the OP? I copied and pasted a large article that had several answers to the OP's question so that's why some of the points weren't as relevant as others. Why did you take issue with the non-relevant points instead of the relevent ones? Am I to take that as you agree with the relevant points made in the article? Next time when you challenge a long article someone posts, it would be a good idea to discuss the relevant issues more than the irrelevant. Especially when the relevant issues are the one the OP was asking about and the irrelevant were not.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that article, appears to me a sheer propaganda, and I am more interested in your responses than just a quote from the internet. At least I am getting feedback. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW, to clear the matter, my very first post on this thread was a specific answer to your posted link. Maybe, again, you didn't bother read it?

[ QUOTE ]
It's very much like comparing atheists to Stalin. Stalin did some bad stuff in the past. Therefore, anyone who's atheist is capable of what Stalin did, even if they think/claim he's a monster. Has it occurred to you that many Christians think the violence in the name of Christ is monstrous as well? Ponder that.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't, I dont claim to be a follower of Stalin, whreas some christians claims that their position is based on following christ. As I can only keep on repeating, I am not against christians, but amongst others I am against christians that use a form of theological terrorism (you will be eternallly damned) to push their own, or unknowningly, their churches, agenda.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, do you have any objections to the actual jist of my response to the OP? If so, what are they. If not, go play somewhere while the grown ups talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said my first post was an answer to your linked reference. As far as playing, I'll leave that to the young minds like yours, those that still believe in santa claus or whatever. At least it may keep you in check, altough the problem is that is is so easily manipulable by your leaders.

Otherwise, no, I will keep on pointing at inconsistencies. This is after all a secular forum. I will stand up... who knows one or more may twigg to their owm embroglios when it comes to faith.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes something is stopping them.., maybe lack of critical mass? So, let's try to keep it that way.

[/ QUOTE ]
You missed it at least twice now. WHO IS "THEM"?! Point them out for me, please?

[ QUOTE ]
No, that article, appears to me a sheer propaganda, and I am more interested in your responses than just a quote from the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is from an apologetics website. Duh, it has a Christian slant to it, but if you're looking for a Christian's answers to the question asked by the OP I can't see how you can then disqualify an answer from the Christian perspective.

Btw, the reason I'm using these articles is because they exist and I don't have to re-invent the wheel and I think they are fairly well thought out.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, to clear the matter, my very first post on this thread was a specific answer to your posted link. Maybe, again, you didn't bother read it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I did read it. And because of how this has played out, I read it over again several times and still can't understand the non sequiters you offer.

[ QUOTE ]
No it isn't, I dont claim to be a follower of Stalin, whreas some christians claims that their position is based on following christ.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't claim to be a follower of the Popes during the Crusades or Inquisition (I'm not even Catholic). You're trying to imply guilt by association, however, and turnabout is fair play. Stalin was an atheist. So are you. Therefore, according to your logic, you are just as capable as he of the crimes he committed and there's nothing really stopping you. See how foolish that sounds?

[ QUOTE ]
As I can only keep on repeating, I am not against christians, but amongst others I am against christians that use a form of theological terrorism (you will be eternallly damned) to push their own, or unknowningly, their churches, agenda.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you keep repeating yourself when I've already acknowledged that those people are to stand against and have pointed out that no such people exist in this thread, hence you are fighting off a hoard of strawmen of your own making. I don't know what else to tell you.

[ QUOTE ]
As I said my first post was an answer to your linked reference.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer anything. You made non sequiter statements that have brought us right back to where we started because you're not making any sense.

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise, no, I will keep on pointing at inconsistencies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then do so. You are so full of hot air it's amazing you're still typing and not stuck to the ceiling! You've pointed out no consistencies, shown me nothing but vague shadowy strawmen who you have valiantly assailed and repeated yourself like a broken record. Congratulations on accomplishing nothing more than making a fool of yourself with as many fallacies and illogic as you could.


And even after my attempt to get the thread off of this subject and back on topic you STILL didn't even bother trying to respond to the points that addressed the OP's questions. Since you won't, then I guess I'm done talking to you in this thread for now. Have fun in your field of scary strawmen.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes something is stopping them.., maybe lack of critical mass? So, let's try to keep it that way.

[/ QUOTE ]
You missed it at least twice now. WHO IS "THEM"?! Point them out for me, please?



[/ QUOTE ]
Those, whoever and whatever creed they are, that use theological terrorism.. like eternal damnation ...
[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
No, that article, appears to me a sheer propaganda, and I am more interested in your responses than just a quote from the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is from an apologetics website. Duh, it has a Christian slant to it, but if you're looking for a Christian's answers to the question asked by the OP I can't see how you can then disqualify an answer from the Christian perspective.

Btw, the reason I'm using these articles is because they exist and I don't have to re-invent the wheel and I think they are fairly well thought out.



[/ QUOTE ]

Those articles offer no reasons, indeed they use lack of reason (ie faith) to justify. That may work with people who already are hooked, but hopefully it will not wiyth otheres and may even make some followers less sure of their rightheousness.

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
BTW, to clear the matter, my very first post on this thread was a specific answer to your posted link. Maybe, again, you didn't bother read it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I did read it. And because of how this has played out, I read it over again several times and still can't understand the non sequiters you offer.

My answer was: As I said before, even if Adam did commit a sin, it is a weird sort of justice that condemns all its descendents.

Your answer was to quote a dead and two thousand or more old civilisation tenet as an answer... (federal headship) catch up dude.. patriarchal society is gone and done .. lol

You are a bit of a luddite aren't you? LOL


[ QUOTE ]
No it isn't, I dont claim to be a follower of Stalin, whreas some christians claims that their position is based on following christ.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't claim to be a follower of the Popes during the Crusades or Inquisition (I'm not even Catholic). You're trying to imply guilt by association, however, and turnabout is fair play. Stalin was an atheist. So are you. Therefore, according to your logic, you are just as capable as he of the crimes he committed and there's nothing really stopping you. See how foolish that sounds?



[/ QUOTE ]

I never done anything in the name of stalin.., stalinists may have, but not neccesarily all atheists... different for christians... right or wrong its in the name of jesus/god. LOL, you are just in denial and have no answers to any of my questions or comments.

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
As I can only keep on repeating, I am not against christians, but amongst others I am against christians that use a form of theological terrorism (you will be eternallly damned) to push their own, or unknowningly, their churches, agenda.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you keep repeating yourself when I've already acknowledged that those people are to stand against and have pointed out that no such people exist in this thread, hence you are fighting off a hoard of strawmen of your own making. I don't know what else to tell you.



[/ QUOTE ]

I can only, because I don't want to go over it with a fine comb, point you again to the quote of your quote. Note, no denials, no mention of absolute abhorence to the concept... "For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. "

If that kind of statement makes sense, they you are on the side of the deluded, the ones that use double talk to say their god is the god of love when really it is only a monster issued for they own mind. In fact it has many affinities to Baal in the bible.. read up.

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
As I said my first post was an answer to your linked reference.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer anything. You made non sequiter statements that have brought us right back to where we started because you're not making any sense.



[/ QUOTE ]

see above

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise, no, I will keep on pointing at inconsistencies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then do so. You are so full of hot air it's amazing you're still typing and not stuck to the ceiling! You've pointed out no consistencies, shown me nothing but vague shadowy strawmen who you have valiantly assailed and repeated yourself like a broken record. Congratulations on accomplishing nothing more than making a fool of yourself with as many fallacies and illogic as you could.


And even after my attempt to get the thread off of this subject and back on topic you STILL didn't even bother trying to respond to the points that addressed the OP's questions. Since you won't, then I guess I'm done talking to you in this thread for now. Have fun in your field of scary strawmen.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's amazing that I can point out to you how you use a form of double talk. Using words that have the reverse meaning of what they usually say, but you can only accuse me of it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

"God is Love", but he punishes and condemns to hell for eternity. lol. You found the right master, but from my understanding of christians imagery, you have given in to the devil.

[BCPVP]

I can't resist....
[ QUOTE ]
Those, whoever and whatever creed they are, that use theological terrorism.. like eternal damnation

[/ QUOTE ]
Names, man, names. Or at the very least a distinct group that you can actually point to, not some nebulous concept. You've been claiming these people constitute some sort of significant portion of Christianity yet you haven't shown this to be true or even pointed out any such people.

[ QUOTE ]
Those articles offer no reasons, indeed they use lack of reason (ie faith) to justify. That may work with people who already are hooked, but hopefully it will not wiyth otheres and may even make some followers less sure of their rightheousness.

[/ QUOTE ]
OP was asking for answers from a faith-based POV. Why would you not expect some of the answer to be faith-based? I find your treatment of the article to be bush league. You've done nothing but say that it is propaganda and lacks reason but have done nothing to show this. It shouldn't be that hard if the article is that faulty...

[ QUOTE ]
My answer was: As I said before, even if Adam did commit a sin, it is a weird sort of justice that condemns all its descendents.

Your answer was to quote a dead and two thousand or more old civilisation tenet as an answer... (federal headship) catch up dude.. patriarchal society is gone and done .. lol

[/ QUOTE ]
I missed this (edit?) so I'll quickly go over it. It's blatantly obvious you either don't understand what you're reading (which is hard to believe because you seem intelligent and this stuff isn't that tough) or you aren't even bothering. From the Federal Headship article:

" If Adam did not represent mankind, then Jesus could not represent the Christians when He died on the cross. As Adam's offense resulted in condemnation to all people, so also, Jesus' sacrifice results in justification for those who believe in Him (Rom. 5:18). It is because of Federal Headship -- legal representation -- that we are able to be saved at all. As Adam's sin was imputed3 to us because of the Fall, our sin was likewise imputed to Jesus on the cross and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us when we receive Him."

We would not be saved from our sin if it weren't for this representational federal headship. No salvation equals death. THAT would indicate a cruel God, as all creatures that would be assured death. Maybe that old concept isn't so bad after all, once you actually bother to read what I offer.

[ QUOTE ]
I never done anything in the name of stalin.., stalinists may have, but not neccesarily all atheists... different for christians... right or wrong its in the name of jesus/god. LOL, you are just in denial and have no answers to any of my questions or comments.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're screwing the analogy up. Unless it is your contention that Jesus was as evil as Stalin. I'll assume it isn't for now. Stalin was an atheist and he did bad things. You are an atheist and you are capable of the bad things he did. This is the same as saying that some members of Christianity have done some bad things therefore I am capable of doing bad things. Stalin's following atheism and those ancient popes were "following" Christianity (they really weren't, so their acts were un-Christian). I don't follow any popes and I don't condone what they did. I'm sure you don't follow Stalin and don't condone what he did. Therefore we are not guilty by association. You however seem to believe there's some double standard that should only apply to Christians due to your bigoted beliefs.

[ QUOTE ]
I can only, because I don't want to go over it with a fine comb, point you again to the quote of your quote. Note, no denials, no mention of absolute abhorence to the concept... "For example, they sometimes say that a truly loving God would not create people He knew would go to eternal punishment. Of course this is only an opinion, but it is sometime raised nonetheless. "

If that kind of statement makes sense, they you are on the side of the deluded, the ones that use double talk to say their god is the god of love when really it is only a monster issued for they own mind. In fact it has many affinities to Baal in the bible.. read up.

[/ QUOTE ]
More nonsensical rantings. Seriously dude, you're not making sense. The statement is perfectly fine and is in fact true with you and the OP being walking proof. But it is your opinion, and not fact. I think you really have to reconsider who's deluded when you can't seperate your own opinion from fact.

Even this is weak. Again, no reasoning or logic, just baseless assertions that God isn't loving. I suppose I can understand since it's clear you don't understand what you're reading and therefore rejecting it. All I can do is ask that you open up your mind some.

[ QUOTE ]
Using words that have the reverse meaning of what they usually say, but you can only accuse me of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't accuse you of double talk. I accused you of making strawman arguments. Which is what you've been doing since you got in this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
"God is Love", but he punishes and condemns to hell for eternity.

[/ QUOTE ]
They chose that path. They forced God's hand. All they had to do was ask for forgiveness and God would do it, no matter what. Hitler and Stalin could have been forgiven. I doubt either of them asked. How can you not call that love when you would take in even what we would consider some of the most wretched creatures on earth because they sincerely wanted to be forgiven?

I think YOU have a warped sense of reality that is distorted by your bias against Christianity. You suffer heavily from the confirmation bias (you see what you want and ignore what you don't). Your arguments have been incoherent and ramblings that have only started to form into anything understandable.

And I noticed you still haven't addressed anything the OP said. Or presented any logical critique of the articles I've presented. But on the bright side, you've mowed down many a strawman and waved your hands quite a bit.

[BCPVP]

Back to the actual topic...

[ QUOTE ]
Does God know the future?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes

[ QUOTE ]
If he knows this although you can say you have free will, do you really?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes you do. His knowing the outcome does not mean the choice didn't exist.

An article (http://www.carm.org/questions/free_will.htm) that further discusses this answer.

[ QUOTE ]
If he knows everything going to happen in your life, why even have you born... just so you can suffer an enternal death in hell.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't really a question, but here's (http://www.carm.org/questions/God_sufficient.htm) a related answer.

[ QUOTE ]
Along those lines, if he knows the future, why didnt he know about Satan and that he would turn on him and do this?

[/ QUOTE ]
If God knows everything that will happen, then he knew about Satan. Here's a couple possible reasons (http://www.carm.org/questions/satan_fall.htm) why God might have allowed Satan to exist.

[ QUOTE ]
If God is ALL GOOD.. he created everything.. he also created Satan then right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
but if he did create Satan, Satan should have Gods characteristics.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? And what characteristics of God would Satan have?

[ QUOTE ]
How did Satan get some sort of notion to be "bad" and revolt if he got everything from God. Where did this "idea" of revolting come from?

[/ QUOTE ]
Satan had the choice to obey God or disobey God. He sinned by being prideful and therefore was cast out. He has probably not sought forgiveness so his sins have compounded and made him "bad".

[ QUOTE ]
What about tribes living in the Amazon Rain Forest or something. THey have no electricity, no finding out of information, no nothing. How do they find the true "Christian" God??

[/ QUOTE ]
One explanation. (http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-3.htm#_1_29)

Hope some of that helped answer your questions and if not, rummage around that site because it does have a lot of info. Ask a theologian or priest if you need some human info.

[MidGe]

I find it wonderful that you are accusing me of not answering your questions, ehen I have and you have never given a coherent reply.

[ QUOTE ]
Names, man, names. Or at the very least a distinct group that you can actually point to

[/ QUOTE ]

As I have said repeatedly, any one that says that god is a punisher, that there is a hell etc... which to me is a form of terrorism targetted at simple minds.

[ QUOTE ]
" If Adam did not represent mankind, then Jesus could not represent the Christians when He died on the cross. As Adam's offense resulted in condemnation to all people, so also, Jesus' sacrifice results in justification for those who believe in Him (Rom. 5:18). It is because of Federal Headship -- legal representation -- that we are able to be saved at all. As Adam's sin was imputed3 to us because of the Fall, our sin was likewise imputed to Jesus on the cross and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us when we receive Him."

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is a reasonable reply... LOL...

[ QUOTE ]
Satan had the choice to obey God or disobey God. He sinned by being prideful and therefore was cast out. He has probably not sought forgiveness so his sins have compounded and made him "bad".

[/ QUOTE ]

Very intelligent and logical argument. But, still, it seems that your concept of god is more akin to satan, and someone rebelling against him, should be given some credit for his standing up to a megalomaniac.



[ QUOTE ]
Ask a theologian or priest if you need some human info.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folks just make sure you get one that doesn't believe in hell, less you fail prey to some evil sects.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
As I have said repeatedly, any one that says that god is a punisher, that there is a hell etc... which to me is a form of terrorism targetted at simple minds.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you wish, you can think of Hell as eternal death or life after death without God. I don't believe the mere belief that there is a Hell is bad, but I don't think people should be scared into believing that they'll go to Hell if they don't do x, y, and z.

[ QUOTE ]
But, still, it seems that your concept of god is more akin to satan, and someone rebelling against him, should be given some credit for his standing up to a megalomaniac.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, these are the kinds of baseless assertions you've been making through this whole thread. Explain. Why is God a megalomaniac and why would Satan be right to rebel against him. "Why" exists down under, doesn't it?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
If you wish, you can think of Hell as eternal death or life after death without God. I don't believe the mere belief that there is a Hell is bad, but I don't think people should be scared into believing that they'll go to Hell if they don't do x, y, and z.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the punishment concept I object to. The details are just icing on the cake. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Why is God a megalomaniac and why would Satan be right to rebel against him. "Why" exists down under, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

God is a megalomaniac because you claim that he is responsible for all creation and then he expects humans at least, we will let the animal suffering go by te side, as insignificant, to worship him under pain of severe, godlike pusnishment.

You are distorting the only acceptable concept of god (that is a loving one) and turn it into a Baal like idol that's why. Now, if you cannot see that, I guess it is a matter of feeble-mindedness, narrow-mindedness or brainwashing. I suspect the latter is the most likely.

You cannot possibly equate infinite love with eternal punishment... this is just double talk. You are in pure denial. I hope I reach some peeople and make them think about what they truly believe. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.

[miketurner]

Is the sun helpful or harmful to the rose?

The answer is: it depends.
If the rose is connected to the vine, it is the sun that gives it life.
If the rose is disconnected, it is the sun that wilts and destroys the rose.
The sun has not changed, only the rose has changed. If you disconnect yourself from God, it is you that has done that.

Instead of asking yourself “Why would God punish me for rejecting him?”, try asking “Why would God give me all the treasures in Heaven if I wouldn’t even acknowledge His existence, or if I damned Him?”

[MidGe]

Too much sun is very bad for the rose.... it is just a matter of observing.. maybe beyond someone that is set in his mind. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of asking yourself “Why would God punish me for rejecting him?”, try asking “Why would God give me all the treasures in Heaven if I wouldn’t even acknowledge His existence, or if I damned Him?”

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he is all loving! Ah! no, your concept of it is much more negative.

[Lestat]

That's a good anology Mike, but notice that the sun doesn't claim to love the rose. The sun can be life giving, or it can be merciless. The sun has no interest in the rose one way or the other.

This is pretty much the way I started looking at God as I made my way through Catachism as a little kid. I couldn't make sense of all the tortuous punishment God administers. All the suffering He allows to occur. A little might make sense, the way a parent uses punishment and suffering to teach a child. But God's wrath seems excessive to the mortal mind. Indifferent to the point of cruelty. Of course, I am no one to question God if He exists. It might all make sense in the long run. But suffering, pain, and indifference, helped lead me to conclude there can be no loving God.

[miketurner]

You’re right, my analogy doesn’t answer every question. It just seemed like many of you just couldn’t wrap your head around the idea that something could be both good for you & bad for you, depending on, well... you . That was really the only concept I was trying to relay at that time. In that sense, I was apparently successful... at least with you. It was only meant to be a stepping stone, if you will. We all have our own paths. You seem sincerely opened minded (most of the time lol). I’m sure you will find your way to peace, if you haven’t already. Would it offend you if I prayed for you Lestat?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">Would it offend you if I prayed for you Lestat? </font>

I think this is a good question! Of course it wouldn't offend me. I really don't see why any atheist would be offended rather than honored, that someone thought enough to take the time to pray for them.

I guess this is the difference between hard-core and soft atheism. I have always tried to convey (with little success), that I have nothing against God. I do not hate the idea of God. It is simply my conclusion that gods do not exist. But everyone has a right to their beliefs and I can't understand why anyone would get offended if another was gracious enough to share his/her belief to try and help them. Only when it infringes on another's rights should there be a problem. So thanks!

[miketurner]

Cool. The only way one should legitimately be offended is if the theist is coming from a place of superiority. An insincere “I’ll pray for you since you are obviously pathetic and lost” kind of thing. That would just be an insult in disguise. By you not being offended, it shows that you have a good read on me.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much the way I started looking at God as I made my way through Catachism as a little kid. I couldn't make sense of all the tortuous punishment God administers. All the suffering He allows to occur. A little might make sense, the way a parent uses punishment and suffering to teach a child. But God's wrath seems excessive to the mortal mind. Indifferent to the point of cruelty. Of course, I am no one to question God if He exists. It might all make sense in the long run. But suffering, pain, and indifference, helped lead me to conclude there can be no loving God.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm
I might have posted that already, but it goes to explain some of your problems with God.

For some more info (from the Christian perspective):
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&amp;id=5093
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&amp;id=5124
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&amp;id=5182

Some free mp3s by Christian Apologist, Ravi Zacharias:
http://rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&amp;v=detail&amp;id=10
http://rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&amp;v=detail&amp;id=11
http://rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&amp;v=detail&amp;id=9
http://rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&amp;v=detail&amp;id=8
There are several others if you dig around in the archives.

I hope you can find some of the answers you're looking for.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
Q6: "I guess the most important thing that influences religion is culture and family. For instance, growing up in a community with nothing but christian surroundings, you are prolly going to be christian. just as if you are born in Iraq with every single person around you Muslim. Believe it or not, you are probably going to be a Muslim. Now Christians say they have a chance to be converted, but how could they possibly be??" A6: God sees the heart and will provide the Christian (or another way) for any willing heart seeking the truth. Muslims can become Christians, and some have.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the things I never understood regarding Christian beliefs. Surely you don't actually believe that any person has God/Christianity in their heart. A person's beliefs will largely be shaped by their ubringing. I'm going to assume that you were raised Christian and are a Christian today. I find it hard to believe that you honestly think that you would be a Christian today even if you were raised Jewish, Muslim , etc.

What about the people that never even have the Christian religion introduced to them? There are going to be people that live in some remote village that have no idea what the Christian religion is. These people have no chance of ever having the Christian set of beliefs.

[PastorDavidDD]

[ QUOTE ]
Q1: "The real question is: Does God know the future?" A1: Yes, God knows the future.

Q2: If so, He knows when you are born and when, how you die. If he knows this although you can say you have free will, do you really? A2: Yes, we have free will.

Q4: ALSO: If God is ALL GOOD.. he created everything.. he also created Satan then right? (or is that wrong im not sure??)... A4: You're right. God created Satan.

Ok so he created Satan.. for what reason?
God can't possibly be all good if he gave us free will. Do you know how many unborn kids (that will be born in the future) are going to hell because God already knows what is going to happen to them (go to hell). Therefore, if God knows what they will "choose" why even create them to let them make that mistake. Also, how is it "free will" if God already knows your path?

[/ QUOTE ]


Q: "Ok so he created Satan.. for what reason?" A: He created Satan for the same reason He created all the angels associated with the earth, to serve Him with the freedom not to (if they so choose).

Q: "Also, how is it free will if God already knows your path?" Knowing that something will happen and causing it to happen are two entirely different things. I know, with certainty, that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I have nothing to do with causing the event. It sure is a breathtraking thing to watch when it can be seen rising over the water, though; and, God willing, I'll be watching tomorrow morning with feelings I have never been able to fully describe with words.

[purnell]

I like your style, Doc. Here's hoping you stick around for a while.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Q: "Also, how is it free will if God already knows your path?" Knowing that something will happen and causing it to happen are two entirely different things. I know, with certainty, that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I have nothing to do with causing the event. It sure is a breathtraking thing to watch when it can be seen rising over the water, though; and, God willing, I'll be watching tomorrow morning with feelings I have never been able to fully describe with words.

[/ QUOTE ]
Causing and knowing are two different things, but both are down to your idea of god aren't they?

chez

[PastorDavidDD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q6: "I guess the most important thing that influences religion is culture and family. For instance, growing up in a community with nothing but christian surroundings, you are prolly going to be christian. just as if you are born in Iraq with every single person around you Muslim. Believe it or not, you are probably going to be a Muslim. Now Christians say they have a chance to be converted, but how could they possibly be??" A6: God sees the heart and will provide the Christian (or another way) for any willing heart seeking the truth. Muslims can become Christians, and some have.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the things I never understood regarding Christian beliefs. Surely you don't actually believe that any person has God/Christianity in their heart. A person's beliefs will largely be shaped by their ubringing. I'm going to assume that you were raised Christian and are a Christian today. I find it hard to believe that you honestly think that you would be a Christian today even if you were raised Jewish, Muslim , etc.

What about the people that never even have the Christian religion introduced to them? There are going to be people that live in some remote village that have no idea what the Christian religion is. These people have no chance of ever having the Christian set of beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]


Q:What about the people that never even have the Christian religion introduced to them? A: I freely admit that I don't have perfect answers. I can only say that I've been fortunate enough to travel on 6 continents through the years, and I've never seen a place where access to Christian teachings weren't available. I do trust God to allow for the means for any willing heart (in some remote village) seeking Truth. In an extreme situation God may allow a voice and a choice immediately before death. I can't really say what happens inside the mind of every person approaching death, and I dare say nobody else can either. Even with a sudden death, time (as Einstein pointed out) is indeed relative.

[PastorDavidDD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q: "Also, how is it free will if God already knows your path?" Knowing that something will happen and causing it to happen are two entirely different things. I know, with certainty, that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I have nothing to do with causing the event. It sure is a breathtraking thing to watch when it can be seen rising over the water, though; and, God willing, I'll be watching tomorrow morning with feelings I have never been able to fully describe with words.

[/ QUOTE ]
Causing and knowing are two different things, but both are down to your idea of god aren't they?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

God is perfect. Our ideas about Him aren't. I'm still working on mine, hoping to make my future visit to the judgement seat a little less confusing.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
God is perfect. Our ideas about Him aren't. I'm still working on mine, hoping to make my future visit to the judgement seat a little less confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea that god is perfect may be wrong too. Looking around me it seems more likely to be wrong than to be right. How do you come to the conclusion that god is perfect when confronted with the numerous imperfections evident all around us.

[PastorDavidDD]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your style, Doc. Here's hoping you stick around for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q: "Also, how is it free will if God already knows your path?" Knowing that something will happen and causing it to happen are two entirely different things. I know, with certainty, that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I have nothing to do with causing the event. It sure is a breathtraking thing to watch when it can be seen rising over the water, though; and, God willing, I'll be watching tomorrow morning with feelings I have never been able to fully describe with words.

[/ QUOTE ]
Causing and knowing are two different things, but both are down to your idea of god aren't they?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

God is perfect. Our ideas about Him aren't. I'm still working on mine, hoping to make my future visit to the judgement seat a little less confusing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I not asking for perfection, give it a shot, it's not an advanced theological question.

chez

[shhhnake_eyes]

Q: "Ok so he created Satan.. for what reason?" A: He created Satan for the same reason He created all the angels associated with the earth, to serve Him with the freedom not to (if they so choose).

Hmmmm,maybe God is a little selfish.. needing to create "people" to worship him??

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Q: "Ok so he created Satan.. for what reason?" A: He created Satan for the same reason He created all the angels associated with the earth, to serve Him with the freedom not to (if they so choose).
Hmmmm,maybe God is a little selfish.. needing to create "people" to worship him??

[/ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about need? God is perfect. He has no "needs". He didn't "need" to create us and doesn't "need" us to worship him.

[shhhnake_eyes]

So why did God even create us, angels, whatever if he doesnt need us. he wouldnt have anything to do if we (animals, plants, humans, bacteria, etc) werent around.

I still don't understand how you can say you can "choose" to believe in God; when God, before you are born, knows what you "choose". Doesnt free will mean you can change and create your own outcome? But by God knowing the future, he already knows the outcome that you "choose" thus disregarding the free will

Most evolutionists/atheists (MOST) would agree that the universe was created by particles or gases, whatever is accepted now. After getting past the claims of Adam and Eve, Religious ppl claim, How did the particles and gases get there? God must have created it. Well where did God come from? How did he come about being a supernatural "being"?


Just a side note: I don't claim to be a part of any religion/non religious group. I do however find it kind of weird that most people believe in some "being" that noone has ever seen, touched, felt, or anything. If a 5 year old has an imaginary friend.. thats ludicrous.. funny how God and imanginary friends are both invisible, and ADULTS are the ones with an invisible friend.
BTW: if someone does claim God has spoken to them and they need to do such and such.. or God said eat 10 hamburgers today.. he/she would probably get laughed at by everyone, and put in a nut house if "God" continued to talk to him/her. That is pretty weird in itself also

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
So why did God even create us, angels, whatever if he doesnt need us. he wouldnt have anything to do if we (animals, plants, humans, bacteria, etc) werent around.

[/ QUOTE ]

We were planned for God's pleasure, we were formed for God's Family, we were created to become like christ, we were shaped for serving God, we were made for a mission. I agree with Rick Warren - The purpose driven life.

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't understand how you can say you can "choose" to believe in God; when God, before you are born, knows what you "choose". Doesnt free will mean you can change and create your own outcome? But by God knowing the future, he already knows the outcome that you "choose" thus disregarding the free will

[/ QUOTE ]

I've struggled with this one myself, the best answer I can give is, you can choose to slap yourself in the face. You know you can choose things.

[ QUOTE ]
Most evolutionists/atheists (MOST) would agree that the universe was created by particles or gases, whatever is accepted now. After getting past the claims of Adam and Eve, Religious ppl claim, How did the particles and gases get there? God must have created it. Well where did God come from? How did he come about being a supernatural "being"?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is eternal, he never had a beginning, see this.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=4221838&amp;page=

[ QUOTE ]
I do however find it kind of weird that most people believe in some "being" that noone has ever seen, touched, felt, or anything. If a 5 year old has an imaginary friend.. thats ludicrous.. funny how God and imanginary friends are both invisible, and ADULTS are the ones with an invisible friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that because most people believe in this thing they can't see it's evidence in itself.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Q: "Ok so he created Satan.. for what reason?" A: He created Satan for the same reason He created all the angels associated with the earth, to serve Him with the freedom not to (if they so choose).
Hmmmm,maybe God is a little selfish.. needing to create "people" to worship him??

[/ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about need? God is perfect. He has no "needs". He didn't "need" to create us and doesn't "need" us to worship him.

[/ QUOTE ]
he doesn't need the worship, so that must be for our benefit.

and he doesn't need to punish us so that must be for our benefit too (I'm assuming benevelence)

and if its for our benefit it cant be damnation, can it?

chez

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
and he doesn't need to punish us so that must be for our benefit too (I'm assuming benevelence)

[/ QUOTE ]
A court doesn't need to return guilty verdicts. If it would make everyone feel better, it could always say the defendant is innocent. But that's not true. And that court would not be a court of justice. Would you think very highly of that court? I wouldn't as it makes a mockery of justice. God cannot just accept injustice and evil as it would mean that his righteousness means nothing.

That's my take.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
So why did God even create us, angels, whatever if he doesnt need us. he wouldnt have anything to do if we (animals, plants, humans, bacteria, etc) werent around.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.carm.org/questions/God_sufficient.htm

[ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand how you can say you can "choose" to believe in God; when God, before you are born, knows what you "choose". Doesnt free will mean you can change and create your own outcome? But by God knowing the future, he already knows the outcome that you "choose" thus disregarding the free will

[/ QUOTE ]
A lack of free will would mean a lack of the ability to disobey. We would be robots doing what we were programmed to do and couldn't step outside of that. God knowing the choice you'll make shows that the choice exists.

[ QUOTE ]
Well where did God come from? How did he come about being a supernatural "being"?

[/ QUOTE ]
God is eternal. He didn't come about. He is and has always been.

[ QUOTE ]
I do however find it kind of weird that most people believe in some "being" that noone has ever seen, touched, felt, or anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
Many people saw, heard, and felt Jesus so your statement is not true.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and he doesn't need to punish us so that must be for our benefit too (I'm assuming benevelence)

[/ QUOTE ]
A court doesn't need to return guilty verdicts. If it would make everyone feel better, it could always say the defendant is innocent. But that's not true. And that court would not be a court of justice. Would you think very highly of that court? I wouldn't as it makes a mockery of justice. God cannot just accept injustice and evil as it would mean that his righteousness means nothing.

That's my take.

[/ QUOTE ]
courts dispense justice on our behalf and we need it for ourselves, if we follow your analogy then it means god needs it.

litle wriggle room - you could say he damns some for the benefit of others. That seems okay but only if god's lack of omnipotence means he couldn't have organised it better.

chez

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
courts dispense justice on our behalf and we need it for ourselves, if we follow your analogy then it means god needs it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how that follows. If the court is dispensing justice for OUR benefit then it is not really for the court's benefit. I suppose you could say that God "benefits" by retaining his rightousness when the wicked are punished and the good are rewareded.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
courts dispense justice on our behalf and we need it for ourselves, if we follow your analogy then it means god needs it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how that follows. If the court is dispensing justice for OUR benefit then it is not really for the court's benefit. I suppose you could say that God "benefits" by retaining his rightousness when the wicked are punished and the good are rewareded.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's right, I was pointing out that your analogy doesn't really work. Courts dispense justice for someone's benefit (i.e. ours), so using that as a comparison to an omnipotent benevelent god dispensing judgement without need doesn't work.

chez

[Kamakaze22]

Free will is based on choice. The reason we have a choice is based on love. God wanted companionship. I don't know why, maybe He got bored, maybe He wanted to see what He could come up with, or maybe He wanted not needed to be loved and to love someone. Free will is based on love. If He gave us no choice we would follow Him because we would have to and not because we choose to. We would love Him because we have to and not because we honestly did.

As far as being damned to a Godless hell. yes, I believe in eternal seperation from God. Bible says they will be seperated from Him. There's a lot of imagery in the Bible, I don't know if the lake of fire is literal or not but I do know the complete absence of God will be torture with or without flames.

And with children and infants, there's the age of accountibility. I don't know when it is, I'm sure it changes, but there's a point when a person becomes responsible for their thoughts and actions, before that they honestly don't know any better. I believe God takes that into consideration when making judgement.

Peace like green,
justin

EDIT: I also think we take time for granted. under the assumption He is an all powerful God, that means time probably doesn't apply to Him. We look at the future as one single line. Beginning and an end like a ruler, but I think God may actually be that ruler. Time exists in Him. And we always have choices so who's to say God doesn;t see each and every possible outcome that could stem from one decision. Each individual life has a huge web of happenings and missed possibilities. Okay, I'm through for now.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Free will is based on choice. The reason we have a choice is based on love. God wanted companionship. I don't know why, maybe He got bored, maybe He wanted to see what He could come up with, or maybe He wanted not needed to be loved and to love someone. Free will is based on love. If He gave us no choice we would follow Him because we would have to and not because we choose to. We would love Him because we have to and not because we honestly did.

As far as being damned to a Godless hell. yes, I believe in eternal seperation from God. Bible says they will be seperated from Him. There's a lot of imagery in the Bible, I don't know if the lake of fire is literal or not but I do know the complete absence of God will be torture with or without flames.

And with children and infants, there's the age of accountibility. I don't know when it is, I'm sure it changes, but there's a point when a person becomes responsible for their thoughts and actions, before that they honestly don't know any better. I believe God takes that into consideration when making judgement.

Peace like green,
justin

EDIT: I also think we take time for granted. under the assumption He is an all powerful God, that means time probably doesn't apply to Him. We look at the future as one single line. Beginning and an end like a ruler, but I think God may actually be that ruler. Time exists in Him. And we always have choices so who's to say God doesn;t see each and every possible outcome that could stem from one decision. Each individual life has a huge web of happenings and missed possibilities. Okay, I'm through for now.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really think a bored lonely god is going to find solice in a bunch of folk telling him how wonderful he is, and oh so right all the time.

and to say he might be bored and want, not need, company is just pointless word twisting.

chez

[Kamakaze22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Free will is based on choice. The reason we have a choice is based on love. God wanted companionship. I don't know why, maybe He got bored, maybe He wanted to see what He could come up with, or maybe He wanted not needed to be loved and to love someone. Free will is based on love. If He gave us no choice we would follow Him because we would have to and not because we choose to. We would love Him because we have to and not because we honestly did.

As far as being damned to a Godless hell. yes, I believe in eternal seperation from God. Bible says they will be seperated from Him. There's a lot of imagery in the Bible, I don't know if the lake of fire is literal or not but I do know the complete absence of God will be torture with or without flames.

And with children and infants, there's the age of accountibility. I don't know when it is, I'm sure it changes, but there's a point when a person becomes responsible for their thoughts and actions, before that they honestly don't know any better. I believe God takes that into consideration when making judgement.

Peace like green,
justin

EDIT: I also think we take time for granted. under the assumption He is an all powerful God, that means time probably doesn't apply to Him. We look at the future as one single line. Beginning and an end like a ruler, but I think God may actually be that ruler. Time exists in Him. And we always have choices so who's to say God doesn;t see each and every possible outcome that could stem from one decision. Each individual life has a huge web of happenings and missed possibilities. Okay, I'm through for now.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really think a bored lonely god is going to find solice in a bunch of folk telling him how wonderful he is, and oh so right all the time.

and to say he might be bored and want, not need, company is just pointless word twisting.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I twisted no words in what I said. I merely said maybe He wanted companionship as opposed to declainrg He needed it. I don't know I'm not God, I just offered what I thought in a completely non threatening form. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Free will is based on choice. The reason we have a choice is based on love. God wanted companionship. I don't know why, maybe He got bored, maybe He wanted to see what He could come up with, or maybe He wanted not needed to be loved and to love someone. Free will is based on love. If He gave us no choice we would follow Him because we would have to and not because we choose to. We would love Him because we have to and not because we honestly did.

As far as being damned to a Godless hell. yes, I believe in eternal seperation from God. Bible says they will be seperated from Him. There's a lot of imagery in the Bible, I don't know if the lake of fire is literal or not but I do know the complete absence of God will be torture with or without flames.

And with children and infants, there's the age of accountibility. I don't know when it is, I'm sure it changes, but there's a point when a person becomes responsible for their thoughts and actions, before that they honestly don't know any better. I believe God takes that into consideration when making judgement.

Peace like green,
justin

EDIT: I also think we take time for granted. under the assumption He is an all powerful God, that means time probably doesn't apply to Him. We look at the future as one single line. Beginning and an end like a ruler, but I think God may actually be that ruler. Time exists in Him. And we always have choices so who's to say God doesn;t see each and every possible outcome that could stem from one decision. Each individual life has a huge web of happenings and missed possibilities. Okay, I'm through for now.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really think a bored lonely god is going to find solice in a bunch of folk telling him how wonderful he is, and oh so right all the time.

and to say he might be bored and want, not need, company is just pointless word twisting.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I twisted no words in what I said. I merely said maybe He wanted companionship as opposed to declainrg He needed it. I don't know I'm not God, I just offered what I thought in a completely non threatening form. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

[/ QUOTE ]
threatening??

I'm just pointing out that when we say 'need' we don't mean 'cannot live without' so what you said is much the same as what I said, not different as you seem to suggest.

The point about being lonely and bored is that when we need (want) the company of others to help we don't seek worshippers to sing our praises all day, rather we seek the company of equals.

chez

[Kamakaze22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Free will is based on choice. The reason we have a choice is based on love. God wanted companionship. I don't know why, maybe He got bored, maybe He wanted to see what He could come up with, or maybe He wanted not needed to be loved and to love someone. Free will is based on love. If He gave us no choice we would follow Him because we would have to and not because we choose to. We would love Him because we have to and not because we honestly did.

As far as being damned to a Godless hell. yes, I believe in eternal seperation from God. Bible says they will be seperated from Him. There's a lot of imagery in the Bible, I don't know if the lake of fire is literal or not but I do know the complete absence of God will be torture with or without flames.

And with children and infants, there's the age of accountibility. I don't know when it is, I'm sure it changes, but there's a point when a person becomes responsible for their thoughts and actions, before that they honestly don't know any better. I believe God takes that into consideration when making judgement.

Peace like green,
justin

EDIT: I also think we take time for granted. under the assumption He is an all powerful God, that means time probably doesn't apply to Him. We look at the future as one single line. Beginning and an end like a ruler, but I think God may actually be that ruler. Time exists in Him. And we always have choices so who's to say God doesn;t see each and every possible outcome that could stem from one decision. Each individual life has a huge web of happenings and missed possibilities. Okay, I'm through for now.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really think a bored lonely god is going to find solice in a bunch of folk telling him how wonderful he is, and oh so right all the time.

and to say he might be bored and want, not need, company is just pointless word twisting.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I twisted no words in what I said. I merely said maybe He wanted companionship as opposed to declainrg He needed it. I don't know I'm not God, I just offered what I thought in a completely non threatening form. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

[/ QUOTE ]
threatening??

I'm just pointing out that when we say 'need' we don't mean 'cannot live without' so what you said is much the same as what I said, not different as you seem to suggest.

The point about being lonely and bored is that when we need (want) the company of others to help we don't seek worshippers to sing our praises all day, rather we seek the company of equals.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that, we do seek the company of equals but to God there is no equal. He created us therefore we are, by rank under Him. Same as if I go into my garage and build a robot to hang out with me (not that I can but that would be sweet). I wouldn't expect to have to treat my robot as my equal nor would I think others would expect me to.

and by threatening I meant seeming as if I were insulting your intelligence, as I was not, nor will I.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Free will is based on choice. The reason we have a choice is based on love. God wanted companionship. I don't know why, maybe He got bored, maybe He wanted to see what He could come up with, or maybe He wanted not needed to be loved and to love someone. Free will is based on love. If He gave us no choice we would follow Him because we would have to and not because we choose to. We would love Him because we have to and not because we honestly did.

As far as being damned to a Godless hell. yes, I believe in eternal seperation from God. Bible says they will be seperated from Him. There's a lot of imagery in the Bible, I don't know if the lake of fire is literal or not but I do know the complete absence of God will be torture with or without flames.

And with children and infants, there's the age of accountibility. I don't know when it is, I'm sure it changes, but there's a point when a person becomes responsible for their thoughts and actions, before that they honestly don't know any better. I believe God takes that into consideration when making judgement.

Peace like green,
justin

EDIT: I also think we take time for granted. under the assumption He is an all powerful God, that means time probably doesn't apply to Him. We look at the future as one single line. Beginning and an end like a ruler, but I think God may actually be that ruler. Time exists in Him. And we always have choices so who's to say God doesn;t see each and every possible outcome that could stem from one decision. Each individual life has a huge web of happenings and missed possibilities. Okay, I'm through for now.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really think a bored lonely god is going to find solice in a bunch of folk telling him how wonderful he is, and oh so right all the time.

and to say he might be bored and want, not need, company is just pointless word twisting.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I twisted no words in what I said. I merely said maybe He wanted companionship as opposed to declainrg He needed it. I don't know I'm not God, I just offered what I thought in a completely non threatening form. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

[/ QUOTE ]
threatening??

I'm just pointing out that when we say 'need' we don't mean 'cannot live without' so what you said is much the same as what I said, not different as you seem to suggest.

The point about being lonely and bored is that when we need (want) the company of others to help we don't seek worshippers to sing our praises all day, rather we seek the company of equals.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that, we do seek the company of equals but to God there is no equal. He created us therefore we are, by rank under Him. Same as if I go into my garage and build a robot to hang out with me (not that I can but that would be sweet). I wouldn't expect to have to treat my robot as my equal nor would I think others would expect me to.

and by threatening I meant seeming as if I were insulting your intelligence, as I was not, nor will I.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no compelling reason why man will not be able to create a machine that is an equal or superior.

Maybe god cannot create an equal but maybe he likes to be challanged and we're the best he could do. Otherwise that leaves your idea that he can relieve his boredom/lonelyness with something isignificant that grovels at his feet.

chez

If you dont want your intelligence challanged then maybe discussing religon on SMP isn't for you.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with that, we do seek the company of equals but to God there is no equal. He created us therefore we are, by rank under Him. Same as if I go into my garage and build a robot to hang out with me (not that I can but that would be sweet). I wouldn't expect to have to treat my robot as my equal nor would I think others would expect me to.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that is precisely one of the thing I object to, in your conception of god. He needs, may want, has desire and he treats us like you would treat your robot (sweet).

[Reef]

I think one "solution" is that God exists outside of time. Just went over Augustine and Boethius in class recently. Someone else can expound.

[Kamakaze22]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with that, we do seek the company of equals but to God there is no equal. He created us therefore we are, by rank under Him. Same as if I go into my garage and build a robot to hang out with me (not that I can but that would be sweet). I wouldn't expect to have to treat my robot as my equal nor would I think others would expect me to.

and by threatening I meant seeming as if I were insulting your intelligence, as I was not, nor will I.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no compelling reason why man will not be able to create a machine that is an equal or superior.

Maybe god cannot create an equal but maybe he likes to be challanged and we're the best he could do. Otherwise that leaves your idea that he can relieve his boredom/lonelyness with something isignificant that grovels at his feet.

chez

If you dont want your intelligence challanged then maybe discussing religon on SMP isn't for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're skipping over the part of choice that I said was key, love. He wanted love, that's why we have a choice. No I suppose there's no reason why we couldn't create a machine equal or better than us, but we're also not God. i don't claim to understand everything about Him I was just expressing what I believe. And I'm not worried about having my intelligence insulted, I was saying I'm not trying to say anything that would insult yours. I'm also not interested in a debate as it would seem every religios thread on SMP seems to come to. Why can no one have a simple discussion. You don't believe what I believe, so what. Not gonna hurt me or you, but we can argue and waste valuable time that could be spent on something else.

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, that is precisely one of the thing I object to, in your conception of god. He needs, may want, has desire and he treats us like you would treat your robot (sweet).

[/ QUOTE ]

and you don't get a response past this. All I have seen from you is a desire to troll a thread until you find a spot to start an argument in the name of freedom or whatever. You're on an internet forum on a poker site, you're no freedom fighter here all you are doing is adding to your post count.
Peace like green,
Justin

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
and you don't get a response past this. All I have seen from you is a desire to troll a thread until you find a spot to start an argument in the name of freedom or whatever. You're on an internet forum on a poker site, you're no freedom fighter here all you are doing is adding to your post count.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you have no answer!

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I agree with that, we do seek the company of equals but to God there is no equal. He created us therefore we are, by rank under Him. Same as if I go into my garage and build a robot to hang out with me (not that I can but that would be sweet). I wouldn't expect to have to treat my robot as my equal nor would I think others would expect me to.

and by threatening I meant seeming as if I were insulting your intelligence, as I was not, nor will I.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no compelling reason why man will not be able to create a machine that is an equal or superior.

Maybe god cannot create an equal but maybe he likes to be challanged and we're the best he could do. Otherwise that leaves your idea that he can relieve his boredom/lonelyness with something isignificant that grovels at his feet.

chez

If you dont want your intelligence challanged then maybe discussing religon on SMP isn't for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're skipping over the part of choice that I said was key, love. He wanted love, that's why we have a choice. No I suppose there's no reason why we couldn't create a machine equal or better than us, but we're also not God. i don't claim to understand everything about Him I was just expressing what I believe. And I'm not worried about having my intelligence insulted, I was saying I'm not trying to say anything that would insult yours. I'm also not interested in a debate as it would seem every religios thread on SMP seems to come to. Why can no one have a simple discussion. You don't believe what I believe, so what. Not gonna hurt me or you, but we can argue and waste valuable time that could be spent on something else.

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, that is precisely one of the thing I object to, in your conception of god. He needs, may want, has desire and he treats us like you would treat your robot (sweet).

[/ QUOTE ]

and you don't get a response past this. All I have seen from you is a desire to troll a thread until you find a spot to start an argument in the name of freedom or whatever. You're on an internet forum on a poker site, you're no freedom fighter here all you are doing is adding to your post count.
Peace like green,
Justin

[/ QUOTE ]
Worship is not love
The second bit wasn't me

chez

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
and you don't get a response past this. All I have seen from you is a desire to troll a thread until you find a spot to start an argument in the name of freedom or whatever. You're on an internet forum on a poker site, you're no freedom fighter here all you are doing is adding to your post count.


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[/ QUOTE ]
Why can't we all learn to love one another? Midge's just engaging in good hearted banter.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and you don't get a response past this. All I have seen from you is a desire to troll a thread until you find a spot to start an argument in the name of freedom or whatever. You're on an internet forum on a poker site, you're no freedom fighter here all you are doing is adding to your post count.


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[/ QUOTE ]
Why can't we all learn to love one another? Midge's just engaging in good hearted banter.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the problem is that some people don't like having to think about the meaning of what they say they believe. Its painful and no reason why they shouldn't avoid it, but they can't reasonably expect to post here and avoid it.

chez