Completing the SB

[DonovanMD]

When I first started playing online this was a big leak of mine, like most new players, but after playing more online this year I've tightened up there a lot after seeing how much I lose out of the blinds. Its funny that live I'm very liberal with what I complete the SB with in a 1/2NL game, J9o, any offsuit connectors down to 56, suited two or three gappers, whatever. I just feel the players are so bad live I wont get in nearly as many tough spots playing more marginal hands for a buck.

But my online game needs more polish and I didnt want to get nearly that loose even in micro stakes games. But I'm wondering what a good range of minimum hands in the SB is when you have a couple of limpers in a 6 max 25NL game for instance. Should I be playing suited two gappers and any offsuit connectors? 910o is my minimum offsuit connectors hand generally, should I be completing with 89o and down? If so wheres a good cutoff?

If its folded around to the blinds I dump these marginal hands without even thinking, but in these low limits so often there are one or two limpers when it gets around to me and it makes me wonder if these hands have gained value as a result.

Anyway, I'd like your thoughts, and thanks to the regs in this forum, I've been lurking here for months and its really helped my online game.

[Bramsterdam]

A9o+, A2s+, KTo+, QT+, J8s+, JTo+, 76o+, 54s+

[DonovanMD]

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A9o+, A2s+, KTo+, QT+, J8s+, JTo+, 76o+, 54s+

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a pretty standard minimum. Thanks for the insight.

[payoff wizard]

IMHO, limping in 6max is BS, especially from the SB. IMO, if there are a bunch of limpers to your SB and you have any hand worth playing (PP, SC, S1gaper, 2BW), you should pump the weak suckers with a big raise (say 6xBB + 1 per limper). If someone does raise pre-flop, you should be either folding, 3-betting with premium hands (99+, A10s+, AQ+), or (in multi-way pots) calling with big drawing hands like PPs or SCs.

[GreenTeal]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, limping in 6max is BS, especially from the SB. IMO, if there are a bunch of limpers to your SB and you have any hand worth playing (PP, SC, S1gaper, 2BW), you should pump the weak suckers with a big raise (say 6xBB + 1 per limper). If someone does raise pre-flop, you should be either folding, 3-betting with premium hands (99+, A10s+, AQ+), or (in multi-way pots) calling with big drawing hands like PPs or SCs.

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

"pumping" these people (?) or the pot is nonsense. Youll play the rest of the hand OOP and you arent getting anybody to fold if they have a hand they wanna see a flop with.

After the flop you have to give up every time you dont make your hand cause u cant cbet into 3 NL25 donks.

edit: if you are thinking about squeeze play here, then yes, thats a valuable tactics, but not really a move to make regularly. At these stakes its debateable nonetheless.

[Vyse]

I am very tight with what I limp with. Only good drawing hands. SCs down to 43, and suited aces. Sometimes suited one-gap broadways. Only sometimes. I'm raising AJs+, 88+, and KQ.

[payoff wizard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, limping in 6max is BS, especially from the SB. IMO, if there are a bunch of limpers to your SB and you have any hand worth playing (PP, SC, S1gaper, 2BW), you should pump the weak suckers with a big raise (say 6xBB + 1 per limper). If someone does raise pre-flop, you should be either folding, 3-betting with premium hands (99+, A10s+, AQ+), or (in multi-way pots) calling with big drawing hands like PPs or SCs.

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

"pumping" these people (?) or the pot is nonsense. Youll play the rest of the hand OOP and you arent getting anybody to fold if they have a hand they wanna see a flop with.

After the flop you have to give up every time you dont make your hand cause u cant cbet into 3 NL25 donks.

edit: if you are thinking about squeeze play here, then yes, thats a valuable tactics, but not really a move to make regularly. At these stakes its debateable nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. So you read my post, flamed it, then realised what I was talking about and edited your post to effectively agree with me. Yes, I am talking about squeeezing. It works - even at uNL.

[GreenTeal]

I didnt flame your post, sorry if it sounded like that. I dont ever flame anybody.

Well, the thing about squeeze play is that you do need certain conditions to use it effectively. Having an UTG limper and you picking up 84o isnt the right situation for a squeeze play, if at all.

As far as I understood OP was generally referring to completing the SB in common situations (1 or 2 limpers) not rather extreme cases (even for uNL, it rareley happens) where there are 4 limpers in front.

If its say 2 limpers already and you know how to effectively exploit them postflop then you can profitably complete with a wide range of hands. Squeezing is not an option here.

[payoff wizard]

I like the politeness GreenTeal, so lets discuss this like gents. Like I said, "if there are a bunch of limpers to your SB and you have any kind of hand worth playing", you should raise big. I agree that multi way pots OOP are painful, and so the aim here is to exploit the obvious weakness of the limpers to make them fold or, at worst, thin the field and go to the flop HU (thus making the success hero's c-bet more likely).

[0evg0]

if you're playing more than a couple tables, completing after limpers in the SB is so marginal that it's really a waste to be completing T5s and stuff like that. even if it's profitable, it's probably affecting your WR by about .0001 whether you decide to call or not.

as for open-completing SB, if anyone ever sees me do that, it's a misclick.

[JoshNjuice]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, limping in 6max is BS, especially from the SB. IMO, if there are a bunch of limpers to your SB and you have any hand worth playing (PP, SC, S1gaper, 2BW), you should pump the weak suckers with a big raise (say 6xBB + 1 per limper). If someone does raise pre-flop, you should be either folding, 3-betting with premium hands (99+, A10s+, AQ+), or (in multi-way pots) calling with big drawing hands like PPs or SCs.

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

"pumping" these people (?) or the pot is nonsense. Youll play the rest of the hand OOP and you arent getting anybody to fold if they have a hand they wanna see a flop with.

After the flop you have to give up every time you dont make your hand cause u cant cbet into 3 NL25 donks.

edit: if you are thinking about squeeze play here, then yes, thats a valuable tactics, but not really a move to make regularly. At these stakes its debateable nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think trying to "sqeeze" 3 or 4 limpers at NL25 is -EV. I'll complete a lot of hands in the SB if there are few limpers, but I'll only make a big raise with a real hand. There's just too little chance that all the limpers will fold, and I'm not into building pots OOP with marginal hands.

That being said, I'll sometimes make a nice pot-sweetening raise in this situation. If I have 55 in SB and there are 3 limpers, I might bump it to 5 BB if I'm pretty confident I won't get re-raised (which is usually a good assumption at a table where 4 people will limp into a pot).

[Gigglegirl]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, limping in 6max is BS, especially from the SB. IMO, if there are a bunch of limpers to your SB and you have any hand worth playing (PP, SC, S1gaper, 2BW), you should pump the weak suckers with a big raise (say 6xBB + 1 per limper). If someone does raise pre-flop, you should be either folding, 3-betting with premium hands (99+, A10s+, AQ+), or (in multi-way pots) calling with big drawing hands like PPs or SCs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow that's aggressive to raise limpers 6BB+1 with SCs1gap and 2 BW.
I wouldn't say it's wrong but you need to be pretty skilled post flop to play those OOP.
Perhaps it works for you but it wouldn't work for everyone.
Also you need to take into account the nature of the limpers. If they limp/fold a lot then fine.
What are your stats for sb, if you don't mind me asking?

[payoff wizard]

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What are your stats for sb, if you don't mind me asking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know how to copy the actual PT onto this, so you can believe me or not. But here are my SB numbers for this month so far (I recently adjusted my play from the SB so results before then do not relate to what I have said in this thread).

Total hands - 1677,
VPIP - 36.14,
cold cal PF% - 0.00,
win % - 18.43,
won $ WSF% - 37.17,
ARPB - 229.43,
net - (229.43),
diff w/o blind - 52.07,
bb/hand - (0.07),
went to SD - 27.88,
won$at SD% - 42.06,
PF raise% - 17.35,
raise fisrt in % 8.47.

Don't get me wrong, i'm no world beater, but I think my game from the SB is very good compared to most uNL players.

[0evg0]

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I wouldn't say it's wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

i would.

there's absolutely no way that raising that wide is the most profitable line, and i'm pretty sure it's actually unprofitable, let alone less profitable.

[corsakh]

AT-AQ, JT-KQ, KT, KJ, all suited SC, gappers and two gappers

[Gigglegirl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What are your stats for sb, if you don't mind me asking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know how to copy the actual PT onto this, so you can believe me or not. But here are my SB numbers for this month so far (I recently adjusted my play from the SB so results before then do not relate to what I have said in this thread).

Total hands - 1677,
VPIP - 36.14,
cold cal PF% - 0.00,
win % - 18.43,
won $ WSF% - 37.17,
ARPB - 229.43,
net - (229.43),
diff w/o blind - 52.07,
bb/hand - (0.07),
went to SD - 27.88,
won$at SD% - 42.06,
PF raise% - 17.35,
raise fisrt in % 8.47.

Don't get me wrong, i'm no world beater, but I think my game from the SB is very good compared to most uNL players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure I believe you, why wouldn't I?
Now filter your hands in PT and see what you come up with as your win/loss with those hands you are raising from SB. I'd be particularly interested in the 2BW and SC1gaps.

[shyturtle27]

I've been looking to get more aggressive in the SB. Here's my new range: If folded to me on the SB, I'm raising AA-22, Ax, T+, T9s-54s, J9s-75s, T9o-54o, or something. If there is a limp or two then I'm raising AA-88, AKs-AJs, AK-AQ, and completing with 77-22, Axs, Kxs, A9o+, T+, T9s-54s, J9s.

[payoff wizard]

[ QUOTE ]
filter your hands in PT and see what you come up with as your win/loss with those hands you are raising from SB. I'd be particularly interested in the 2BW and SC1gaps.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. here's the numbers (blinds not included in WR).

2BW - (0.46)bb/hand
S 1 gap - 1.34bb/hand
SCs - 1.6bb/hand
PP - 2.09bb/hand