25NL: a leak in my game? Any advice much appreciated.

[warwickphil]

Okay, I've been a lurker on these forums for ages, but I've only just pulled my finger out and sorted my account.
I play 25NL on party, and have done for about 4 months I think, but I've probably been playing poker for about a year and a bit in total

I think that I have a pretty solid game, and for this level, I have a decent understanding of position, pot odds, c-bets, etc. (Like I said, I have read these forums for quite a while, and have read a lot of the stickied articles about ssnl)

So, the only problem is......I'm not currently a particularly winning player. I have no problems grinding up my bankroll 3-4 BI's, and seem to be able to run a table pretty well, but when I get to a certain point, i start losing money again, and get back to where I started. I'm guessing this may be due to complacency or over-confidence. Anyone else had this issue?

I bought poker tracker yesterday, and as yet, I don't really understand it (I'll figure this out over the next week or so), but I thought I'd post a couple of figures (I don't know what they mean personally...)

over 2265 hands:
AF= 5.06/2.21/4
saw flop 25% of time
raised preflop 21% of time

I almost never limp into pots, and stick with the 4-5BB + 1BB for each limper rule.

If anyone could give me a quick tip or two about what I could look for against villains on pokertracker during games, that might be useful also.

Sorry this post has turned out to be so long, but this has been annoying me for a while, and any advice will be much appreciated.

Feel free to rip my stats apart, tell me i'm [censored] etc, i'm determined to learn!!

Thanks,
Phil. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ama0330]

Hey phil, welcome to the forums.

Seeing as you've "just bought PT" you probs don't have enough hands played to make your statistics meaningful. What you cand do, and would really benefit you, is to post some really big pots that you lost. And some medium sized ones too.

Go to the "game notes" tab in PT and click on the "net" column to sort it from most money lost to most money won, then go to www.legopoker.com/hh/ (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/), paste the HH in there, press "convert", then copy that code into a post, and we'll all comment on it.

Good luck!

[warwickphil]

Great, thank you.
I have about another 2000 hh's that my crappy hard drive corrupted, but I just wondered if 2265 would be enough.

As soon as I get home I'll post some hands.

I was wondering, do my stats up there currently present any glaring faults on any street? Please ignore this if my question is nonsensical.

[warwickphil]

oh one more thing, would many of you recommend buying and using pokerace hud for 25nl?

[MJBuddy]

I brought up these same questions a few days ago; there's another program that shows a variety of stats that's free. I think it was Gametime+ but I don't remember and I'm not at home to check; but yeah, it's not as nice as pokerace but it's also free until you increase your BR enough to warrant the purchase.

[BishopsFinger]

im suggest you get PAHUD - its generally regarded as the best HUD.

a sample size of under 3k hands isnt really going to show you anything spectacularly meaninglful

i just noticed your screenname - phil metcalfe?

if so then its ben mate

[warwickphil]

now then ben /images/graemlins/smile.gif
poker running good at the moment?

[BishopsFinger]

hah no i moved to Full Tilt a little while ago to whore myself on the 100% bonus and have run pretty [censored] over my first 10k hands - 2ptbb/100.

http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i632676_ptstats.bmp (http://www.imagehosting.com)

that plus 100$ released from the bonus.


mate im back in warwick tomorrow visiting becs so i could do a sesh with you if you want going through PT and PAHUD with you. also i could help with the basics, im no legend but its pretty clear im not a moron and know my way round the nl25 tables. my game has improved about 300% over the last few months.

[llamage]

warwick...ever heard of winner's tilt? I have trouble with it sometimes too. basically, you go up a few buyins and think ur invincible. You start raising 67s UTG and try to outplay ur opponents. Try sticking to your gameplan for an entire session.

[warwickphil]

Aha yes, that sounds exactly like the sort of thing i do. Someone should write up the "Invincibility Theorem"!

I start making stupid plays OOP with substandard cards, or chasing draws because i think i can afford it, or making stupid bluffs on the river.

Worst thing is, I know that I'm doing it. Does anyone who's experienced it have any avoidance tips?

It's particularly frustrating because i KNOW that i can beat this level on party...

I was considering putting signs above my monitor reminding me not to over commit, or make -EV calls.

[llamage]

Over time I think you just stop doing it. One thing my friend does that really helps is to just take a break. When you catch urself doing the stupid stuff...then just take a break. Also try playing more tables...you don't have time to think and do stupid stuff because your busy contemplating REAL hands in big pots...rather than trying to bluff a $5 pot on the river.

[warwickphil]

Yeah I tried that approach, but it still happens. As soon as I see my bankroll, I seem to feel like i'm in some kind of comfort zone.

V. v. frustrating when trying to generate a bankroll to move up a level!

[BishopsFinger]

phil whats your br like these days?
you playing cash games exclusively nowadays? given up on the sitngos?
what br are you taking shots at n50 at?

[warwickphil]

I haven't taken shots at nl50 yet, nowhere near the bankroll.
I keep a br of about 4-5 BI's, because any more than that and I start losing it again due to "winner's tilt"!!
I know it's recommended to keep 10 BI's for your level, but i'm in a position to reload when necessary, so it doesn't bother me too much.

Yeah I play cash games exclusively, except for poker soc on monday nights. (Took it down this week, ship it!)

[BishopsFinger]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't taken shots at nl50 yet, nowhere near the bankroll.
I keep a br of about 4-5 BI's, because any more than that and I start losing it again due to "winner's tilt"!!
I know it's recommended to keep 10 BI's for your level, but i'm in a position to reload when necessary, so it doesn't bother me too much.

Yeah I play cash games exclusively, except for poker soc on monday nights. (Took it down this week, ship it!)

[/ QUOTE ]

lol good work with the poker soc tourny man but you need more than 10 buy ins fo sho. the variance could wipe out your entire roll here in one night.

if youre determined to stay at nl25 then do man but i really would recommend moving down. a roll of 100$ isnt enough to stay at nl 25 at - not even close.

[bozzer]

hi phil,

I have played with you I believe. You seemed generally ok, but then you did something really dodgy. I think it was with aces in a RR pot. I don't have access to my db at the moment, but i'll try to remember to dig up your post when I do.

you should probably get more money in your br. even if you can top up easily, dropping 5bi in a session is not unlikely and you don't want to be weak-tight because that.

[BishopsFinger]

also most people (myself included) recommend way way more than 10 buy ins. im playing nl25 with ~25 buy ins and im comfy at this level, bearing in mind a really bad downswing is like -10buy ins

[warwickphil]

Bozzer, if you could find that hand it would be great, although i do kind of know what my leak is- i make stupid plays! i just can't stop doing it...

And ben, I completely get what you're saying, but i don't have the funds to buy in for 10 BI's. I have considered moving down, but don't really want to as I know that I am completely competent to play at this level. (not meaning to sound arrogant here...)

I got frustrated at .05/.10 on party, I much prefer the style of play at 25nl, and I believe 50nl may suit me better if only i could afford it, AND avoid tilting...

[Gigglegirl]

Another of your leaks appears to be patience, if you don't mind me saying.
You are playing way over your BR. You must drop down and GRIND up your BR. And yes, it's called grinding for a reason, it's tough to do. But it teaches you patience which is a tool in every winning players arsenal.
If you are making stupid plays it's probably as a result of this lack of patience/discipline. Learn to become discplined and patient at a low stakes level where the lessons are not so expensive.
I started with twice your BR but still ground it out at 1c/2c games. Having 20 buyins for the next level is only the first requirement for me moving up. I must also be winning at a good rate. And I must feel that there is nothing more I am learning at the level I'm playing.
It's a pain playing pots at tiny stakes but if you want to ensure you never have to come back to these stakes, then play within your BR.
Otherwise you're gonna end up BUSTO. Simple as.

[warwickphil]

No I don't mind you saying at all, any criticism is welcome.

Whilst I am sure you are right in saying that in discipline is a major factor, I also feel that for my last couple of thousand hands, I have not been learning anything more at this level. I'm not in anyway stating that there is nothing left for me to learn here, nor that I am ready to move up. Simply that when I am not playing stupidly, I rarely seem to get outplayed.

I fully appreciate the input though, and will consider dropping to 10NL, especially to improve my patience.

[Lurker.]

you're way underrolled. keep like 20 BI.

[DannyOcean_]

I am very loose with my BR, and i still say you MUST drop down.

I like to keep 20 buyins, but i take shots at the next level when i get 12-15 of that. If not successful, i drop back down. But still, please drop down and don't go busto. Bc you will go busto playing with 4 buyins. 100%.

[warwickphil]

The way I've always looked at it is that if I keep 4BI's in my account and go bust, I can reload with another 4 or whatever, so it's just like having 10+? I'm not playing above what I can afford as such, it's just not in my poker account. Is this flawed logic?

[Dexytp22]

Setting limits like that is not good for your game. You need to have enough buyins to sustain a downswing. Reloading every time you go down imo is not a great plan. And reloading so much is just meh, I guess it's less meh for a non-U.S. resisdent though.

[Gigglegirl]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I've always looked at it is that if I keep 4BI's in my account and go bust, I can reload with another 4 or whatever, so it's just like having 10+? I'm not playing above what I can afford as such, it's just not in my poker account. Is this flawed logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

And then another 4BIs, and then another 4, and then another 4? This is what will happen. Nobody can exist on a 4 BI BR.
Every winning player will tell you that they have experienced -10 BI downswings. That's variance. It happens even to the best. That's what a BR is for. To avoid going busto when that variance hits.

Chris Ferguson experimented taking a dollar and turning it into $10,000 online. He went bust the 1st time due to bad BR management. If Chris Ferguson can go bust, you'll certainly do it.
You sound like you know how to play the game but want to run before you can walk.
Decide that the $100 (or whatever) is the only money you're ever going to put in. Then play within your BR.
If you do not exercise good BR management, YOU WILL GO BUST.

You have enough for 5NL at the moment and that's what I recommend you play. If you insist on playing 10NL, you better start winning right away as it's dangerous for your BR.
If you don't start winning right away, don't make excuses like, "I would win if only I didn't do stupid plays".
If you are good enough you will win. If making stupid plays is part of your game to the extent that it means you lose money, then you are not a good player.
You now have Poker Tracker which will plot your progress or lack of. The stats don't lie.

If you're still not winning at 10NL or 5NL, there is something wrong with your game and you need to move DOWN yet again.
Don't think you'll win more by moving up where people play better and your style fits.
The lower the level, the worse the player, the more mistakes they make, the more a good player wins.

BTW, Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS) doesn't work at micro levels. Don't make intricate bluffs on these guys. Play ABC poker.

Also post some of your hands on the forums here and people will tell you what you did right or wrong.

Best of luck.

[warwickphil]

Okay. Points taken. I'm modest enough to know that unanimous advice from twoplustwo is 99.9% likely to be more accurate than whatever i'm thinking.

I think what i'm been afraid of is absolute idiots not even playing real poker, or drawing out on me at 10NL or whatever. I guess with proper grinding though it will be possible.

I would track my progress and keep posting it with pokertracker, but my harddrive on that pc just died! oh noes! I'l try and sort it out tomorrow.

I've just loaded up a 10NL table. Wish me luck!

edit: dammit! just realised party doesn't have 6-max for 10NL! Which is fishiest/weakest site at this level in your opinions?
Sorry about all the questions!

[Gigglegirl]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay. Points taken. I'm modest enough to know that unanimous advice from twoplustwo is 99.9% likely to be more accurate than whatever i'm thinking.

I think what i'm been afraid of is absolute idiots not even playing real poker, or drawing out on me at 10NL or whatever. I guess with proper grinding though it will be possible.

I would track my progress and keep posting it with pokertracker, but my harddrive on that pc just died! oh noes! I'l try and sort it out tomorrow.

I've just loaded up a 10NL table. Wish me luck!

edit: dammit! just realised party doesn't have 6-max for 10NL! Which is fishiest/weakest site at this level in your opinions?
Sorry about all the questions!

[/ QUOTE ]

People WILL draw out on you more at those levels. The worse the players, the more bad beats you'll get. But that is MORE than compensated for by the fact that they are paying you off more.
If you are looking for a new site then this is an oppurtunity to help your BR.
Most sites offer bonuses when you sign up. You should also sign up for Rakeback BEFORE you register. It cannot be done retrospectively.
I'm about to sign up for FullTilt as I can get 27% of my rakeback. Also they give a 100% sign up bonus up to $600.
Other sites offer more rakeback than that I believe and there are various sign up bonuses at other sites.
Go to the Rakeback forum at the end of the list of forums in the main index and ask around for what might suit you best.
As for the fishiest site at 10NL, I'm most sites will have a similar standard of play but I can't say for sure.

[warwickphil]

haha! lo and behold, 2nd hand:
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $10.70
BB: $2.45
UTG: $2.55
<font color="black">Hero (CO): $10.00</font>
BTN: $9.75

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.10, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.50</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.40

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($1.15) J/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.80</font>, UTG calls $0.80

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($2.75) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets all-in for $1.25</font>, Hero calls $1.25

<font color="black">River:</font> ($5.25) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $5.25 ($0.25 Rake)

UTG had 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (a straight, Eight to Queen) and WON (+$2.45)
Hero had A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and LOST (-$2.55)


never mind...

[Gigglegirl]

You were 80/20 when the money went in so you played it fine. You will win 80 times out of 100 here, this just happens to be 1 out the 20 times:(
And at these levels you'll get this sort of situation 100s of times which is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for you.
Sit tight, that guy is gonna lose it back to you in a minute:)

[warwickphil]

Well, just finished my first quick session dropped down to 10NL and I'm very pleased so far. The level of play is FAR lower than that of 25NL.

Only played 360 hands or so, but i'm about 2 and a half BI's up. (which coincidentally gives me exactly 10BI's for this level!)

So far so good, i shall keep grinding away... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jk1986]

Warwickphil, are you at warwick uni and if so do u come pokersoc?

[jk1986]

Oh and btw, even if party doesn't offer 6max 10nl, you still want to stick with party or another european only site, since the standard of play is wayyyy worse than the american sites.

[warwickphil]

haha yeah jack it's me phil, the guy always smoking outside/stealing lighters...

I've been multitabling stars, 10NL is ridiculously easy there. Got a bonus to unlock in 100 FPP's, then i'll probably move on again.

If you're with will/minty, tell them to sort out the points from the tag team tourney!!!

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I've always looked at it is that if I keep 4BI's in my account and go bust, I can reload with another 4 or whatever, so it's just like having 10+? I'm not playing above what I can afford as such, it's just not in my poker account. Is this flawed logic?

[/ QUOTE ]


No, it is absolutely correct. The 20BI (or 300BB in limit) rules are mathematically based on the assumption that you are not depositing more money into your bankroll (and, by the way, are not withdrawing any!!!). If that assumption does not hold, neither does the rule. If you are only playing recreationally, and depositing more is not a problem, then by all means keep it at 4BI's or whatever. But if / when you want to stop depositing you will need a lot more than that....

And yes, definately get PAHud.