50NL: I called loose and now have no idea what to do

[RunDownHouse]

First orbit, so no reads. Do I flat call here? I have no idea if I've got any FE with the raiser, its not like a set ever lays down here, and neither does the NFD.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($26.25)
UTG ($32.95)
MP ($25.70)
CO ($49.95)
Hero ($50)
SB ($53.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $2</font>, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2, SB calls $1.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds.

Flop: ($9) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $10</font>...

[davekngs]

shove you have a ton of FE and a big draw. any raise commits your stack so a shove is better

[MJBuddy]

Depends: Do you want to attempt to draw out to the second best flush or would you rather draw out to the second best straight?

Fold.

[Machavelli]

[ QUOTE ]
shove you have a ton of FE and a big draw. any raise commits your stack so a shove is better

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm normally all about shoving these slightly +EV spots but i really do not think this is one of them. You don't have that much FE in this spot, you're flush draw is not likely good and its possible you're straight wont even do it. I think this is a fold IMO.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends: Do you want to attempt to draw out to the second best flush or would you rather draw out to the second best straight?

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL very nice. Fold preflop.

[derosnec]

you have practically no FE

you've invested so little

sets, straights, and two pair are not folding

there are lot of higher flush draws

you are not closing the action

[MJBuddy]

You're drawing to two situations with 0 implied odds and horrible pot odds. This is a clear fold, if it wasn't clear.

If you hit the flush and you're not beat, the betting will dry up and you get nothing. If you're beat, you're stacked. If you hit the straight, same principle.

[hummusx]

Hero folds, which he probably should have done pf.

[Zagga]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero folds, which he probably should have done pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

[RunDownHouse]

Good to see such quick, consistent responses. I folded because I was worried about the bigger draws.

[Jouster777]

I don't think you need to have much fear of a higher straight (though CO could have flopped an equal one) and as the PFR'er FD is a small part of MP's range (I doubt CO has a bare FD). I agree with others that you have little FE.

I'd probably go for a call if stack sizes were all the same but MP is going to fold or push and that screws up your odds...fold

[Waingro]

I don´t understand why everybody is seeing monsters under the bed. MP is repping exactly missed overs and CO thinks he beats that, how is this not an easy push? When I shove my sets in this spot everybody folds all the time. True, we don´t have much FE vs sets and the straight, but I don´t think that is their entire range.

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
Good to see such quick, consistent responses. I folded because I was worried about the bigger draws.

[/ QUOTE ]What draws were you worried about? I think you only need to discount your outs slightly...but I agree its a fold.

[Machavelli]

[ QUOTE ]
MP is repping exactly missed overs and CO thinks he beats that

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on such little knowledge of the situation this seems pretty exact.

I certainly do not put MP on missed overs. He cbet the flop and that could mean that missed overs are in his range but its not the entirety of it. CO thinks he can beat MP so I put him on a set, two pair, pair + flush draw, straights, TPTK, overpair? I just don't see the value in shoving this spot with zero FE.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP is repping exactly missed overs and CO thinks he beats that

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on such little knowledge of the situation this seems pretty exact.

I certainly do not put MP on missed overs. He cbet the flop and that could mean that missed overs are in his range but its not the entirety of it. CO thinks he can beat MP so I put him on a set, two pair, pair + flush draw, straights, TPTK, overpair? I just don't see the value in shoving this spot with zero FE.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think zero FE is a pretty gross exaggeration.

I didn´t say I put MP on missed overs, read my post. I said that he is repping missed overs with his tiny bet. That means that CO´s range is probably wider than usual, it doesn´t mean he loves his hand. I think CO has one pair a lot, and we are 47% vs a pair. The situation would obviously be entirely different if MP bet 8 and CO raised to 20. My point is this is a different situation where our pot equity and fold equity is much higher.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
I don´t understand why everybody is seeing monsters under the bed. MP is repping exactly missed overs and CO thinks he beats that, how is this not an easy push? When I shove my sets in this spot everybody folds all the time. True, we don´t have much FE vs sets and the straight, but I don´t think that is their entire range.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow that's optimistic...

[Nick C]

The chances that our flush draw is crushed are not really that big, but MP's stack size is a problem (like someone pointed out, if he stays in, it's quite possible he'll push). Also, we haven't really heard from SB yet, although, let's face it, most likely he's going to fold.

I think mainly it's just a really icky spot to be in. I don't like any of your options at this point.

[Brian O'Nolan]

[ QUOTE ]
you've invested so little

[/ QUOTE ]
I see people say this about these kinds of hands and it always bugs me... how much money you've already put into the pot in a cash game doesn't matter, asides from how it influences pot &amp; bet size vs. effective stacks.

[RunDownHouse]

My biggest issue is that if I get called, its nearly always by a set, a bigger flush draw, or maaaaybe two pair. Of course, its hard to say with unknowns, but if I'm against a set or nut flush draw, I have about zero fold equity, and I'm between a 35/65 and a 40/60 dog. Against top two its closer to 50/50.

At the time, the way I saw it was that if I shove and get called, I'm in poor shape, and if I flat call and a flush hits, there's a decent chance I get stacked by a higher flush.

[Antinome]

I think this is an easy call preflop and a fine call or push. Of course, if you plan on folding here I would fold preflop. Y'all a buch of weak-tight nits.

MP's range is anything he raises with and CO's range is TP+.

We're calling if the table is loose passive and MP will just call- we're calling 2.2:1, we only need ~3:1 which we will have if MP calls. We might not get paid off huge if a flush hits, but villians are dumb and pay of the most amazing things. That makes up for any slight shortage in pot odds. I can decide to dump it on the turn if the action continues to be insane, I'm in position, I'll know more before I have to make the big descision.

Pushing is fine too because we get to see two cards, we are ahead of everyone's range, and we have lots and lots of FE no matter what you nits think. I would push more on a tight aggro table- although when called I am behind more, I have more FE so it balances nicely.

[coordi]

Cold calling [censored] suited connectors like this always puts you in a predicament. either 3 bet or fold. only play this [censored] when your in control. imo.

[Antinome]

[ QUOTE ]
Cold calling [censored] suited connectors like this always puts you in a predicament. either 3 bet or fold. only play this [censored] when your in control. imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a 'predicament', it is a nice, profitable, and easy to play spot.

Come on, when did 2+2 get so nitty that we don't even call sexy little suited one gappers on the button in a multiway pot?

[dazraf69]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends: Do you want to attempt to draw out to the second best flush or would you rather draw out to the second best straight?

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[MJBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depends: Do you want to attempt to draw out to the second best flush or would you rather draw out to the second best straight?

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You're drawing to two situations with 0 implied odds and horrible pot odds. This is a clear fold, if it wasn't clear.

If you hit the flush and you're not beat, the betting will dry up and you get nothing. If you're beat, you're stacked. If you hit the straight, same principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

[0evg0]

preflop is terribly standard

shove over the raise

[Jouster777]

I think folding this is not inconsistent with calling preflop. This is a very specific situation where playing a combo draw is EV- IMO.

Postflop, calling is just plain bad as implied odds are poor and it is very unlikely we get to the turn with 2 others in the pot without MP pushing. Pushing here relies on a substantial FE to pad the EV...I didn't think we had that much FE.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing here relies on a substantial FE to pad the EV...I didn't think we had that much FE.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I originally thought ("relies on a substantial FE"), but now I'm not as sure. If he ever folds something like QhJh, doesn't that make a push much better?

[matrix]

Preflop is fine.

folding here is standard. A push is OK but only if you like razor thin egdes and mucho variance.

if CO calls and doesn't raise I call all day - BUT there are 2 people behind us if we call - so calling here is not an option, push or fold.

given that it's first orbit (you are sitting at tables where you have some idea of how the players play aren't you - not just sitting in cold) and we have no reads I'd lean towards folding. If we have reads that are FE is better than normal - push. If we know they'll BOTH call - push.

If we had pair +fd or flush + nut straight draw then I'd lean towards pushing this.

Tho folding 1gap SC's OTB in a raised multiway pot I think is *horrible*

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
A push is OK but only if you like razor thin egdes and mucho variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate comments like this.

the whole point is to make the most profitable decision in every situation.

if you're passing up +EV spots because of their thinness, you're not making a profitable decision by playing whatever stakes you are.

[RunDownHouse]

Plenty of people choose to pass on some amount of EV in order to reduce variance. If you're playing thousands and thousands of hands, its the only way to keep sane for a lot of people. Back in the day, lots of 2+2ers were rolled for sh limit games above 15/30 or 30/60, but chose to stay at the smaller stakes. Less money, less variance, more sanity.