JJ multiway

[corsakh]

25 UB,

Hero in BB with JJ.

Stacks $20

UTG raises to 0.85, MP calls, button calls, sb folds, Hero raises to $5, UTG raises to $9, 2 fold, Hero ???

UTG has 11 behind

[thac]

Huge overbet.. why make it so much? Since you did though, you have to call this and may as well shove. This raise accomplishes the same as a raise to like 3.5, but I don't like doing this OOP with JJ. I'd rather call and play cautious on flop.

[corsakh]

There is a raiser and two callers. Pot is already 2.5.

[maccamack]

It's only $4 to call, however, the only card you are happy to see on the flop is a J. Any A or K and you have to fold, anything low and you are going to struggle to. Without a read that villian can do this with AK/any pocket pair and not just the hands that have you beat - I think you should fold. A four bet at this level has got to mean AA/KK more often than not.

If you are going to play on from here, I think you should shove.

[corsakh]

There is no question its a fold or a shove. I am just not sure which one /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[maccamack]

Without a read/history - fold.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a raiser and two callers. Pot is already 2.5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I like to just call. If you're gonna raise 25% of your stack pre.. you may as well just shove. I mean, I don't get why we'd raise here. We're OOP against 3 people (once one calls, they all call LDO), and I just don't like it. If UTG had like 22 and folds, and you win like $2.50, it doesn't make up for all the times they call and you lose the pot. The only way you're gonna feel comfortable postflop is if you hit a J, so it's better to just call and hope to spike one, y'kno?

[corsakh]

Perhaps your right, I basically think the same way.

[maccamack]

I don't mind the three bet pre at all. The problem is that UTG has a real hand here - the others can have any old [censored]. By taking the line hero took here, a high percentage of the time he takes the pot down pre and doesn't have to play his tricky hand out of position at all....For JJ to have a good chance of winning post flop, you have to narrow the field down.

[thac]

But like I said above, you either win $2.5 or you lose a lot when one of the players have a hand.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
But like I said above, you either win $2.5 or you lose a lot when one of the players have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have on more than one occasion seen players call a rr with less than stellar holdings. I don´t think calling and cf any non-J flop is optimal.

[Womble]

If you push you are putting in 14 to win about 42 So thats 33% equity.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.190% 35.98% 00.21% 125683776 731868.00 { JJ }
Hand 1: 63.810% 63.60% 00.21% 222162504 731868.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Now - do you think he will do this with AK?

[Bowlboy]

I have to agree with thac here. We have no fold equity here so I see no point in shoving. This doesn't look like AK to me. From my experience AK will shove on the 4bet rather than min raise. He doesnt want to get out played on the flop AK, but AA and KK can pretty well shove any flop here if we call.

By 3betting as much as OP did we're putting in 25% of our stack in what could be a 4 way pot. If the flop even goes 3 way and their is one overcard we have to fold to heat here. Because of that I like calling for set value. Chances are UTG does have a hand and if we do hit a set our implied odds for calling .85 preflop could be somewhere around 30-1 because we have excellent relative position to the preflop raiser. The 2 preflop callers did cold call an UTG raise. They could easily call a $2 cbet on a Jxx board enabling hero to put in a cr.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
By 3betting as much as OP did we're putting in 25% of our stack in what could be a 4 way pot. If the flop even goes 3 way and their is one overcard we have to fold to heat here. Because of that I like calling for set value. Chances are UTG does have a hand and if we do hit a set our implied odds for calling .85 preflop could be somewhere around 30-1 because we have excellent relative position to the preflop raiser. The 2 preflop callers did cold call an UTG raise. They could easily call a $2 cbet on a Jxx board enabling hero to put in a cr.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, if we know that UTG only raises QQ+ this would be excellent strategy. However, if he raises 10-12% this is nowhere near correct. He isn´t stacking off with AQ or 66 on a Jxx flop. Instead we are letting our 3 opponents see a cheap flop to try to outflop us.

I agree that we can fold to the 4bet.