TAMING NL 50 an interesting animal

[ssdex]

I have played all over the place, from .10/.25 all the way up to 5/10 in the past. I've been playing 50nl for 3 months now and logged 120k hands. I am normally TAG, however I think the biggest winners at 50nl play a different game. TAG or hyper lag is a must at higher levels...... but at 50NL I think 25/12.... 30/15 players do better than the 23/20, 18/15 13/10 type players..... the reason is post flop advantage, open limping and calling a lot of bets with weakish hands can be very +ev against all the monkeys at 50nl, plus i think you stack people more at lower levels then when you move up........ what is your experience with nl50.

[TheRenaissance]

this was a bit vague

[Al_Money]

120k hands at NL50, sounds like you have some big leaks.

Straightforward, aggressive TAG works just fine at NL50.

[ssdex]

lol, i'm just a huge bankroll nit because of some nasty downswings ive had, i am pretty high varience, ive run 5 ptbb over the 120k and ~6.5ptbb over the last 70. Im moving up to 100nl over the next month, but just wanted to share some wisdom about nl50 before I left...... the biggest winners at nl50 are 25/12 type players, but you have to be able to handle the varience, i agree solid tag is way better, less deviation, but you can't sustain the same winrate as a tag.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
at 50NL I think 25/12.... 30/15 players do better than the 23/20, 18/15 13/10

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not correct. Limping & coldcalling half the hands you play is not good poker at any level.

[ssdex]

We run a contest, i find the 3 best 25/12 players at nl50 and you find the 3 best tags.... and see after 100k hands who has a better win rate...... everyone knows the game gets harder as you move up... coldcalling gets you destroyed higher than nl50 because people are better at not letting you stack them when you hit hands, but at nl 50 if you narrow your coldcalling to a range.... its pretty easy to put most opponents you have tons of stats on a range too... a good 25/12 player will be in a lot more big pots with post flop advantage.... even oop... and by advantage i mean if your diciplined, its not too hard to pick spots, hell half the time i dont even have to look at my cards to know when moves will work and when i can shove and get called......... this is impossible to do consistantly at a higher level.... but at nl50 i think its very sustainable.... after 120k hands i would say the 25/12 players have on average twice the winrate of any solid tag range, just making an observation and trying to explain it.......... we all know tag is a better style, esp if you plan on moving up

[Vyse]

Are you on drugs?

[ssdex]

no, after 120k hands, 50 players with atleast 2k hands in pokertracker, not one tag in the top 10 and only 3 in the top 20 for win rates....

[Vyse]

Wow, not 2K hands!

It also differs site-to-site.

[ssdex]

i really think you are misunderstanding the point of this post----- i am not arguing this style is better at all----- just pointing out for a player who is good post flop, solid and disciplined, there is a lot of $ to be made coldcalling a certain range of hands.... maintain your tag style but open limp some hands not in your range and bring in some outside your range... it mixes up your play, tags are very predictable, i rarely ever get stacked by a tag...... im just pointing out that of all the limits I have played, I find the stats of the biggest winners at 50nl very interesting.... and im trying to explain it, numbers dont lie. and its a really BIG sample.

[Vyse]

Yeah, you can get away with playing looser and cold calling more speculative hands. But not to the extent you're claiming.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
no, after 120k hands, 50 players with atleast 2k hands in pokertracker, not one tag in the top 10 and only 3 in the top 20 for win rates....

[/ QUOTE ]

2k hands is not even close to enough to judge a winrate. The entire basis for your conclusion is without validity.

[PJo336]

I play the way he is talking about, 22/10 about, and I kinda understand what he means. I need to log alot more hands tho before I throw in much input, im only at about 5k hands

[ssdex]

grunch is 120k enough then? i play 18/15 at nl100 but 26/11ish at nl50.... wr over 120k is 5.95ptbb---this includes a 20 buy in downswing and a 14 buy in downswing--- the variance is very bad, but running 6ptbb over 120k hands is very good---- also, i know atleast 2-3 other players around 25/12 at this limit that have similar numbers with more than 100k hands logged

[derosnec]

people who make best decisions will win

here is an example:

2 regulars have same stats: 18/12. And they have the same exact skill in handreading, odds analysis, and making preflop decisions except for two differences:

Player A calls utg/mp raises by tight players with AJo and QTs in the blinds and folds 22 and 33 utg

Player B folds AJo/QTs in the blinds against an utg/mp raise by tightie but opens with 22 and 33 utg


Guess who will win more $$

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
i play 18/15 at nl100 but 26/11ish at nl50

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Do you honestly believe the games play that different between 50 and 100?

These happen to be the two limits I play and I would say the only difference is the increase in the number of solid regs doing some serious grinding at NL100 but then I've not played a huge sample of hands so I may have just run into more.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
grunch is 120k enough then? i play 18/15 at nl100 but 26/11ish at nl50.... wr over 120k is 5.95ptbb---this includes a 20 buy in downswing and a 14 buy in downswing--- the variance is very bad, but running 6ptbb over 120k hands is very good---- also, i know atleast 2-3 other players around 25/12 at this limit that have similar numbers with more than 100k hands logged

[/ QUOTE ]

But you dont know any TAGs to compare it to.

[ssdex]

LOL, i know plenty of tags, listen im just making an observation, not trying to get in an argument--- that 120k hands is since march 25th-- i play a shitton of poker, i have 900k hands in pt on this database alone- i had well over 1m on my old computer--- I agree things are very different at different sites--- i guess i should clarify this is at pokerstars-- nl100 and nl50 are two entirely different games there--- nl100 is way more solid aggressive then nl50 is---- at stars i only have like 25k hands logged at nl100--- but I think the level of play is 20x better--- i was just trying to point out something I had observed at 50nl--- you wont find many great tags at 50nl --- but there are a shitton at 100nl --- I just think this style works better against the range you find at 50nl.

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
the biggest winners at nl50 are 25/12 type players

[/ QUOTE ]

lol no.

like i said in the PM reply i just sent, you're decent. but you have major leaks if you regularly run 28/13 or whatever, and there are like maybe a total of 3-4 at 50NL stars who are even DECENT playing that style.

[Vyse]

evg is so mean and blunt that I love him.

[ssdex]

i just said the biggest winners--- what do you run ptbb 0evg0? i have you as like a 23/20 tag--- id be interested to see a large sample from you, i didnt say the most consistant, b/c if you cant adapt your play for the bigger games youll get murdered, i already stated I am a traditional 19/16-18/15 TAG, however, for 50nl i've just found running 25/12 works better, leaks dont really matter that much, noone is going to try to exploit you for rolls..... if it works it works.... but id be interested to see your winrates and compare styles.... its just in the past most tags run lower at 50nl then they do at higher levels, hence the reason they move up faster quicker than those that can't adapt to games at higher levels---i dont know, i think ill try to log like 25k hands this week at 18/15 and see how I run.

[0evg0]

please cease your implications that i cant beat bigger games.

and i'm not sharing my winrate unless i'm your coach.

[bills427]

[ QUOTE ]
I think 25/12.... 30/15 players do better than the 23/20, 18/15 13/10 type players.....

[/ QUOTE ]

lolz expert

[ssdex]

lol @ EVG, i never made any implications you can't beat bigger games, I move limits all the time, i have my reasons for playing nl50 right now as im sure you do too, I have no reason to believe you dont win and win big, you saying im implying that you cant beat bigger games is like me saying that your implying that I need a coach, which is obv funny in itself.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
lol @ EVG, i never made any implications you can't beat bigger games, I move limits all the time, i have my reasons for playing nl50 right now as im sure you do too, I have no reason to believe you dont win and win big, you saying im implying that you cant beat bigger games is like me saying that your implying that I need a coach, which is obv funny in itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he's implying it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Vyse]

Hahaha, wonder how much evg charges for coach. $100/hr?

[0evg0]

no.

i dont think EMc wants me discussing it

and ssdex, you're simply wrong. and my comment was meant to be understood that i only share my winrate with a couple people. namely those who pay me.

[Gelford]

Well .... the crux of your argument is, that at 50NL players make mistakes that you can exploit by lowering your pfr and coldcall/limp more. Fair enough.

You might be right.

You get sodomized at 200NL if you mentain your conviction, but that is not what we are arguing here, so dunno why I mention it.

Also it can be argued that good players do not have large samplesizes at 50NL since they either move up quickly or usually play higher stakes, so if we look at players with large samples at 50NL, then chances are they are mediocre.


I dunno what the point of your point is, perhaps you are right, a 20/10 style is better than a 20/20 style at 50NL, but why that is interesting is beyond me ??? (I assume you aren't arguing that a style with a lot of limping and coldcalling is optimal at 200NL and above, If you are, then I don't think you will find many supporters)


So as said question here is, why is this post interesting and what is your point ?

[PJo336]

I think he was trying to give info to help newcomers to 50NL, not long time SSNL players such as urself Gel.

Either way, I dont get the point of this arguement, especially since niether side will actually POST THEIR GOD DAMN STATS. EVG why would anyone request coaching if they dont know how good your winrate is? I just remember that you blacked it out on the stats thread. Which is fair, I dont like to share any of my stats much mainly because Im winning yet people still talk [censored].

SSDEX why dont you POST your PT? Is there a reason you just say you have a good win rate? To quote BBV4L, this thread is worthless without pics

[ssdex]

the point was playing a pool of bad players is different then when you move up and the fish are very isolated----this was my proposal why this strategy may be better when you have a few bad players in ever game. 20/10 is bad poker no doubt, but does it work better with 2-3 bad players in every 6max game, rather than 1 or 2 at the most and then 3-4 who have a semi good idea of what they are doing/have a lot of experience

[Knight Vision]

NSFW please

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
the point was playing a pool of bad players is different then when you move up and the fish are very isolated----this was my proposal why this strategy may be better when you have a few bad players in ever game. 20/10 is bad poker no doubt, but does it work better with 2-3 bad players in every 6max game, rather than 1 or 2 at the most and then 3-4 who have a semi good idea of what they are doing/have a lot of experience

[/ QUOTE ]


Then we agree, Holla !!

Bad poker can be profitable at low levels /images/graemlins/grin.gif (and to be honest, my turn aggression is principally way too low at 100NL, but I don't get punished for it and it is an less stressfree way to play. But then again, I wouldn't play like that any higher than 100NL ... to mention another way of playing bad poker, that works at lower stakes)

[derosnec]

all i know is that 50nl at stars is the nittiest place on earth, with 3 to 4 multiablers at almost every table. and if you get a fish at the table, he has a 40bb stack.

[Grunch]

Alright, you win.

You say you're not trying to start an argument, but I'm forced to notice that this conversation will not end until everyone agrees with you.