Iris Caught Marking the Cards at Commerce

[andyfox]

Infamous Commerce player Iris was sent home today for marking the cards. She likes to get a lot of new set-ups when she's losing and since Commerce only allows one new set-up per hour unless there is a damaged card, she takes it upon herself to damage the cards. My neighbor and I caught her and she was sent home by the floorman. Of course, she'll be back tomorrow.

She doesn't mark the cards to cheat, but rather to get new set-ups. But it's not impossible she cheats when she marks them, or that other players are aware of her habit and use the marked card(s) to their advantage. Be alert if you find yourself in a game with her.

[DeMaci]

She doesnt mark the cards to cheat, she just bends them to get a new setup, and she doesnt try and conceal this. Now youre telling me to be alert of this? Go away.

[HOWMANY]

This honestly sounds really nitty.

[DosXX]

Pretty standard from my experience at LA games. I've seen someone intentionally do this a couple times. And the new setup is requested on average about every 20 minutes.

[MitchL]

Scrambooooooool!

[govman6767]

Simple solution to this is to allow set ups WHENEVER a player requests them. Then just charge the player for a new deck of cards +1 dollar for Administrative fee's.

This would save the casino a ton of dough and would basically pay the casinos cost for new decks.

After dropping 50 dollars in new decks every day Iris would eventually stop asking for setups

[*TT*]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif Iris. More stories please Andy, Iris has been underrepresented in the B&M forum recently!

[MitchL]

[ QUOTE ]
Simple solution to this is to allow set ups WHENEVER a player requests them. Then just charge the player for a new deck of cards +1 dollar for Administrative fee's.

This would save the casino a ton of dough and would basically pay the casinos cost for new decks.

After dropping 50 dollars in new decks every day Iris would eventually stop asking for setups

[/ QUOTE ]

No, her and all the other tilty fish would just take their business to 1 of the other 300 cardrooms in the Los Angeles metroplex that dont charge for set ups.

[Gonso]

No legit reason any player should be intentionally defacing cards, whether the intent is to cheat or not. It might be nitty to some people, but I think sending her home for the day is good policy. Having to change setups is annoying enough, but the real problem is that you might get players uncomfortable with the game they're in.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
No legit reason any player should be intentionally defacing cards, whether the intent is to cheat or not. It might be nitty to some people, but I think sending her home for the day is good policy. Having to change setups is annoying enough, but the real problem is that you might get players uncomfortable with the game they're in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Peronsaly, a perma ban for destroying casino property wouldn't be out of the question in most rooms here. Also, I see lots have gone to "no setups unless something is wrong with the cards" which basically says "nits go home/elsewhere".

[52s]

Good.

I f*cking HATE nits that constantly ask for setups with the hot, fiery passion of a thousand suns. Especially when in the box. These nits deserve a swift kick in the skull instead of the ass when getting tossed out.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
Good.

I f*cking HATE nits that constantly ask for setups with the hot, fiery passion of a thousand suns. Especially when in the box. These nits deserve a swift kick in the skull instead of the ass when getting tossed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a player I absolutely LOVE being at a table with as many people who ask for set-ups as often as possible as I can get. I wish EVERYBODY wants to get set-ups. And I play in a time game. If I was in a rake game I'd be asking for them too.

[Gonso]

Oh, I don't mind playing with people who ask for setup changes... having those types at the table isn't a problem in and of itself. From the box I don't care because we don't do it on request if the cards are fine, although we might make the occasional exception for whatever reason. If you're playing 1/2 and you just aren't getting any cards, forget it though.

But no, the superstitious types are good company. Let them ask, just don't go marking cards.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
This honestly sounds really nitty.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, anything that gets Iris out of the game is a good thing for the world. She is painful to play with and she doesn't play as poorly as she used to so now there is really no reason for her to exist, other than for random B&M stories I guess.

I think the Commerce staff is going to have quite a party the day she gets perma-banned, moves, quits poker, BUSTOs, or dies.

-DeathDonkey

[sternroolz]

[ QUOTE ]
No legit reason any player should be intentionally defacing cards, whether the intent is to cheat or not. It might be nitty to some people, but I think sending her home for the day is good policy. Having to change setups is annoying enough, but the real problem is that you might get players uncomfortable with the game they're in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Commerce would have to send home half the players in the casino.

[andyfox]

I'd decided not to tell stories about others without their knowledge, but marking the cards deserves the bad publicity.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd decided not to tell stories about others without their knowledge, but marking the cards deserves the bad publicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Change her name to Siri and nobody will know the difference, or start delivering Gabe stories - your choice.

Question to all: Should Iris be forced to pay for the replacement deck as a penalty since she was found intentionally damaging the deck? Why should the house be forced to eat the cost of the replacement?

[Wongboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good.

I f*cking HATE nits that constantly ask for setups with the hot, fiery passion of a thousand suns. Especially when in the box. These nits deserve a swift kick in the skull instead of the ass when getting tossed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a player I absolutely LOVE being at a table with as many people who ask for set-ups as often as possible as I can get. I wish EVERYBODY wants to get set-ups. And I play in a time game. If I was in a rake game I'd be asking for them too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree as long as they don't actually GET the new set-up. It would be very painful to have 2-3 set-ups an hour.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd decided not to tell stories about others without their knowledge, but marking the cards deserves the bad publicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Change her name to Siri and nobody will know the difference, or start delivering Gabe stories - your choice.

Question to all: Should Iris be forced to pay for the replacement deck as a penalty since she was found intentionally damaging the deck? Why should the house be forced to eat the cost of the replacement?

[/ QUOTE ]
Since the casino doesn't pitch and entire deck, but rather just the bad card, the actual cost to the place was 1/52nd of a deck. Sure...bill her 20cents.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd decided not to tell stories about others without their knowledge, but marking the cards deserves the bad publicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Change her name to Siri and nobody will know the difference, or start delivering Gabe stories - your choice.

Question to all: Should Iris be forced to pay for the replacement deck as a penalty since she was found intentionally damaging the deck? Why should the house be forced to eat the cost of the replacement?

[/ QUOTE ]
Since the casino doesn't pitch and entire deck, but rather just the bad card, the actual cost to the place was 1/52nd of a deck. Sure...bill her 20cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is true. They always brought a new deck at commerce when I was there two years ago. I think that allowing a setup anytime someone asked but charging a $1 is crazy. People used to use the setups just to get a smoke break and grind the game to a halt. If they did it everytime someone asked there would only be 3 hands delt an hour at commerce tables.

Greg

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd decided not to tell stories about others without their knowledge, but marking the cards deserves the bad publicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Change her name to Siri and nobody will know the difference, or start delivering Gabe stories - your choice.

Question to all: Should Iris be forced to pay for the replacement deck as a penalty since she was found intentionally damaging the deck? Why should the house be forced to eat the cost of the replacement?

[/ QUOTE ]
Since the casino doesn't pitch and entire deck, but rather just the bad card, the actual cost to the place was 1/52nd of a deck. Sure...bill her 20cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is true. They always brought a new deck at commerce when I was there two years ago. I think that allowing a setup anytime someone asked but charging a $1 is crazy. People used to use the setups just to get a smoke break and grind the game to a halt. If they did it everytime someone asked there would only be 3 hands delt an hour at commerce tables.

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't bring a shrinkwrapped deck. They mix the cards back into new decks and bring those out.

[bodie]

Ha! I agree - just like those who sit stubbornly with their arms crossed until a certain dealer has left ("terrible dealer"); along with those who throw their cards swiftly at the dealer, meanwhile whining, "New set-up!", "Extra shuffle!"

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since the casino doesn't pitch and entire deck, but rather just the bad card, the actual cost to the place was 1/52nd of a deck. Sure...bill her 20cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is true. They always brought a new deck at commerce when I was there two years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
Many places bring a single replacement card if one is gimped. And when they bring new decks, it isn't a new deck, it's just 52 unique redback and 52 unique greenbacks.

Guess you've never seen the stacks of cards some places keep? 10 green ace of spades in a row, 10 green deuce of spades, 10 three's... All nicely sorted and ready for someone to grab a single card.

No, they don't toss out an entire deck when a single card is bad.

[brandon]

She drives me crazy in the 60 game. All she wants to do is slow the game down when she is loosing. She is one of the biggest dealer abusers Ive ever seen at the commerce.

The funniest old white lady at the commerce is that Russian lady. She will play for 3 days straight and loose $15,000. Her dealer abuse is so out line and over the top you cant take it seriously.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Simple solution to this is to allow set ups WHENEVER a player requests them. Then just charge the player for a new deck of cards +1 dollar for Administrative fee's.

This would save the casino a ton of dough and would basically pay the casinos cost for new decks.

After dropping 50 dollars in new decks every day Iris would eventually stop asking for setups

[/ QUOTE ]

No, her and all the other tilty fish would just take their business to 1 of the other 300 cardrooms in the Los Angeles metroplex that dont charge for set ups.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, if they're throwing her out, they are, in essence, telling her to go play somewhere else.

[andyfox]

Commerce is the Capital of Dealer Abuse. Because they tolerate it.

[andyfox]

I understand the sentiment but, of course, with players asking for set-ups you get to play fewer hands against them. The 60-120 game at Commerce is a time collection and it's $216/table/hour.

[andyfox]

The correct punishment, in my judgment, is to ban her from the casino. She was marking a card.

[GTL]

[ QUOTE ]
The correct punishment, in my judgment, is to ban her from the casino. She was marking a card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but if she has been doing it out in the open forever, they have basically been condoning it. It's one thing to ban someone for marking cards, and another to allow them to do it for months, then ban them out of the blue. I think sending her home for the day and telling her if she does it again she will be banned is the best solution.

[andyfox]

I think she plays as poorly as ever, but she's universally regarded, and justly so, as the most horrible person who plays mid-limits at Commerce. And that's saying something.

I agree with Chris. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were playing for a living; I doubt it. I don't care if she were worth two big bets an hour to me all by herself. I hope to never see her again.

[andyfox]

I don't know if anyone has ever caught her or if this was the first time. I agree that if it's not, a warning would be proper; if it is the first time, I'm in favor of one strike and you're out.

[andyfox]

Her dealer abuse is probably the worst there is, because not only is she nasty, but she's racist as well.

[pfapfap]

I once had someone slice a card in two with a rubberband at 30/60. I was a little shocked that somebody would be so completely obnoxious over losing a hand. The floor did nothing.

On the topic of rooms tolerating dealer abuse and other crappy behavior... why is this? I talk with a friend who has dealt in Vegas, and when I tell him of the crap people get away with and the little backup dealers get from the floor, he's amazed. Where I work, I'm not allowed to deal anybody out of a hand without the floor's permission. This is absurd. And since the problem players know how to juuuust push the edges of the boundaries, the floor never does anything if they're called over because someone's being a jerk. We have no power and the a-hole players know it. Occasionally I've dealt someone who was skirting the line out of a hand, and the person shaped right the hell up for a while. These people are addicts, and taking away their fix is the only thing that works. On a basic lizard brain level, they respect the firm hand.

But no. We pander instead. Blargh.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think she plays as poorly as ever, but she's universally regarded, and justly so, as the most horrible person who plays mid-limits at Commerce. And that's saying something.

I agree with Chris. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were playing for a living; I doubt it. I don't care if she were worth two big bets an hour to me all by herself. I hope to never see her again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy,

I've long believed that LA cardrooms under-perform* despite the fact they have more B&M games than anywhere else in the world. IMO a big part of this is the amount of awful behavior that is allowed just because a particular customer or group of customers puts in a lot of hours. Iris of course is a classic example. Her despicableness is more than simply bending/marking cards; it's about the other things (e.g racist abusive behavior) you mention in this tread and you and others have mentioned in past threads. It makes a great story on 2+2 but it's really ugly to watch in person.

If the Commerce seriously barred Iris (and perhaps a dozen more of her ilk) and kept at it when new cretins emerge does anyone agree that in the long run far more new customers (the types who realize a card room isn't church but expect at least a small degree of civility) would emerge to replace her?

It stands to reason that in a generally wealthy metro area where about twelve million people live within an hours drive of a card club there just have to be many that like (or would like) poker but stay away because they can't stand being around such unpleasantness. And Iris and her ilk are certainly unpleasant (at least at the tables; I've heard she can be nice on the phone to her family or friends).

~ Rick


* By under-perform I mean that the LA card clubs are immune to new competition, they are half empty during the day and that other clubs (e.g, the typical Indian Casino card room) are run even worse doesn't disprove my point.

[*TT*]

rick - you need this. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=10369315&an=0&page=0 #Post10369315)

[3rdCheckRaise]

[ QUOTE ]
she's universally regarded, and justly so, as the most horrible person who plays mid-limits at Commerce.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? More info please...

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
the most horrible person who plays mid-limits at Commerce.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa! I'm probably going to visit Commerce in a month or 2. Can I sweat you when you're in a game with her for a half-hour?

As an aside:

Something like 12-14 years ago there was a guy playing at The Taj who was told that if anybody else ever hit him again HE would be permanently barred.

[andyfox]

You've written on this--eloquently--in the past. I would think that, indeed, a certain percentage of new cardroom customers don't come back after one trip because they are wtiness to the club allowing a jerk (or jerks) beahve like a jerk.

You would know, better than I, what the mentality is that allows the abuse to continue. As a guess, I would venture that the clubs don't really know what it is that makes them successful. Why does Commerce have the large number of high limit games? Do they themselves really know? If they're not sure why they do, they would worry about their business in irrational ways.

[andyfox]

"Can I sweat you when you're in a game with her for a half-hour?"

Sure. PM me any time.

[andyfox]

She's abusive, mean-tempered, racist, goes south with chips, and marks the cards.

[Red Stine]

Iris is a sweetheart compared to some others at the Commerce. How about the Arab guy that calls the (female) dealers bitches and whores, and when the dealer or another player complains the floor comes over, puts his hand on the abusers shoulder, gives him a massage, and tells everyone what a nice guy he is and how he didn't mean it.

This is one reason why it's illegal to tip a casino employee in England. That guy who works the floor on the evening shift, Jack I think his name is, is one of the biggest phonies on the planet. This guy makes $50 to a $100 in tokes before he ever begins his shift.

"How's my 'friend' tonight? Oh, there is another one of my 'friends.' How are you doing my 'friend?'

Meanwhile all of his "friends" are slipping him a ten dollar chip. This was enough to make me gag.

So, when the big tipping abuser is caught red-handed, Jack just walks over, rubs his shoulders and says everything will be OK.

What a joke.

[pokerswami]

[ QUOTE ]


Andy,

I've long believed that LA cardrooms under-perform* despite the fact they have more B&M games than anywhere else in the world. IMO a big part of this is the amount of awful behavior that is allowed just because a particular customer or group of customers puts in a lot of hours. Iris of course is a classic example. Her despicableness is more than simply bending/marking cards; it's about the other things (e.g racist abusive behavior) you mention in this tread and you and others have mentioned in past threads. It makes a great story on 2+2 but it's really ugly to watch in person.

If the Commerce seriously barred Iris (and perhaps a dozen more of her ilk) and kept at it when new cretins emerge does anyone agree that in the long run far more new customers (the types who realize a card room isn't church but expect at least a small degree of civility) would emerge to replace her?

It stands to reason that in a generally wealthy metro area where about twelve million people live within an hours drive of a card club there just have to be many that like (or would like) poker but stay away because they can't stand being around such unpleasantness. And Iris and her ilk are certainly unpleasant (at least at the tables; I've heard she can be nice on the phone to her family or friends).

~ Rick


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. There are many well-off potential poker players, especially women, who would never voluntarily spend time in that type of environment.

It is especially important to remember that an unhappy customer is likely to warn 10 times the number of potential players about his or her bad experience than a happy customer is likely to recommend the room to his acquaintances. Even, maybe especially, regulars will tell their acquaintances about the abhorrent behavior.

I'm still amazed that dealers haven't been able to improve their work conditions, especially since it would likely mean more business for them.

If only one major club would significantly change for the better, I believe over the long run it would see a big increase in business.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I think she plays as poorly as ever, but she's universally regarded, and justly so, as the most horrible person who plays mid-limits at Commerce. And that's saying something.

I agree with Chris. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were playing for a living; I doubt it. I don't care if she were worth two big bets an hour to me all by herself. I hope to never see her again.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you played the 100/200 (or sometimes 2/4 by the grace of god) with Julian (muscle bound skull cap guy) you might put him ahead of Iris, it's definitely close.

[ QUOTE ]
The funniest old white lady at the commerce is that Russian lady. She will play for 3 days straight and loose $15,000. Her dealer abuse is so out line and over the top you cant take it seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

This lady is much better to have at the table because she is slightly less loud than Iris, a worse player, and usually plays 100/200. Funny random story about her, a few weeks ago I'm in one of the crappiest 100/200 games ever at Commerce, like 8 good players and this lady. She quietly tells Pierce the game is tough and she doesn't like it and the nice guy that he is, he tells her "your style will do really well with all these tight guys though, they will try to run you over" and she smiles and nods and doesn't quit. Thanks Pierce!

Red Stine,

Jack is like that with everyone, I've never given him a dime and he greets me that way when he sees me. That said if you ever need a correct ruling get ANYONE but Jack, he doesn't know any of the rules.

-DeathDonkey

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
That said if you ever need a correct ruling get ANYONE but Jack, he doesn't know any of the rules. - DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a long time 2+2 poster who told me he thinks Jack has the judgement of King Solomon (after a discussion that included much of what was said in this thread).

From the "King Solomon wiki" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon)

"Wisdom of Solomon

One of the qualities most ascribed to Solomon is his wisdom. One account, that of Solomon suggesting to divide a baby in two to determine its real mother, is from the Old Testament of the Bible in the book of Kings. In this often-quoted passage, two prostitutes came before Solomon to resolve a quarrel about which of them was the true mother of a baby. (The other's baby died in the night and each claims the surviving child as hers.) When Solomon suggests dividing the living child in two with a sword, the true mother is revealed to him because she is willing to give up her child to the lying woman rather than have the child killed. Solomon then declares the woman who shows the compassion is the true mother and hands the child to her.

Then the king said, "Bring me a sword." So they brought a sword for the king. He then gave an order: "Cut the living child in two and give half to one and half to the other." - 1 Kings 3 (New International Version)

~ Rick

[mt_david]

Bad WIKI.... they just include a quote at the end, which causes your misconception... Here's the entire text which they draw their quote from...

[ QUOTE ]
16 Now two prostitutes came to the king and stood before him. 17 One of them said, "My lord, this woman and I live in the same house. I had a baby while she was there with me. 18 The third day after my child was born, this woman also had a baby. We were alone; there was no one in the house but the two of us.

19 "During the night this woman's son died because she lay on him. 20 So she got up in the middle of the night and took my son from my side while I your servant was asleep. She put him by her breast and put her dead son by my breast. 21 The next morning, I got up to nurse my son—and he was dead! But when I looked at him closely in the morning light, I saw that it wasn't the son I had borne."

22 The other woman said, "No! The living one is my son; the dead one is yours."
But the first one insisted, "No! The dead one is yours; the living one is mine." And so they argued before the king.

23 The king said, "This one says, 'My son is alive and your son is dead,' while that one says, 'No! Your son is dead and mine is alive.' "

24 Then the king said, "Bring me a sword." So they brought a sword for the king. 25 He then gave an order: "Cut the living child in two and give half to one and half to the other."

26 The woman whose son was alive was filled with compassion for her son and said to the king, "Please, my lord, give her the living baby! Don't kill him!"
But the other said, "Neither I nor you shall have him. Cut him in two!"

27 Then the king gave his ruling: "Give the living baby to the first woman. Do not kill him; she is his mother."

28 When all Israel heard the verdict the king had given, they held the king in awe, because they saw that he had wisdom from God to administer justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

[sternroolz]

[ QUOTE ]

Red Stine,

Jack is like that with everyone, I've never given him a dime and he greets me that way when he sees me. That said if you ever need a correct ruling get ANYONE but Jack, he doesn't know any of the rules.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with this. Jack was the floorman...of some of the low limit games for a long time. I haven't played $4-8 or $6-12 for a long long time at Commerce...probably over 5 years now. I moved up to the $20-40 only around November. I hadn't seen Jack in years and he still recognized me and was really friendly..."how are you my friend...blahblahblah". I've never once tipped him. He is like that every time I'm there. I can't comment on how he runs the games as I don't play $40-80 yet, but thats definitely his overall personality.

[andyfox]

Jack's a legend. One night a friend and I are on line at the cage; Jack is with us, schmoozing. A guy comes from around the corner, from the Asian games section, and cuts in front of us. Jack says to him, "There's a line." The guy gives jack $10. Jack says, "Right this way, sir."

[andyfox]

"if you ever need a correct ruling get ANYONE but Jack, he doesn't know any of the rules."

Rick might know the rules a bit, but nobody else at Commerce has a clue.

One day I'm shooting the bull with Marcel while I'm waiting for a seat. A big ruckus breaks out at a stud table, and they scream for a floorman. Marcel doesn't move. They now call for him by name. Says Marcel to me, "This ought to be good. Why don't you go over, you know more about the rules than I do."

[andyfox]

Yeah, when I think of Jack the first person that comes to mind is King Solomon.

[andyfox]

Seems to me that I'm seeing more and more dealers react to abuse or impoliteness with surliness or impoliteness of their own.

[Brad1970]

Can I ask a silly question?

I've never been to the Commerce, so I have no idea (other than what you all say) what the players/action are like. My question is why does management/dealers put up with the arseholes like this lady Iris who mark the cards, cuss the dealer, throw sh*t, etc. Can these people not act their age? Are they drunk or doing drugs or something?

I can say for certain that this behavior would not be tolerated in other card rooms in other parts of the country. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still amazed that dealers haven't been able to improve their work conditions, especially since it would likely mean more business for them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hahaha, like management really gives two shakes for the dealers or their concerns.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me that I'm seeing more and more dealers react to abuse or impoliteness with surliness or impoliteness of their own.

[/ QUOTE ]
If LA is anything like Bay Area, I can't blame them. Dealers have no power and abusive customers know it. I feel quite strongly that if dealers were permitted to deal problem children out of hands and get the backing of the floor, a lot of this would settle down. I've tried arguing my case, but it falls on deaf ears.

Management wants them around. It's the path of least resistance, and the idiots feed the games. We're run by regulars, not tourists. I'm sure it'd take a while for word to get out that a place has cleaned up, so forseeable-term is +EV for the casino to let them stay.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
If the Commerce seriously barred Iris (and perhaps a dozen more of her ilk) and kept at it when new cretins emerge does anyone agree that in the long run far more new customers (the types who realize a card room isn't church but expect at least a small degree of civility) would emerge to replace her?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think it is action, rather than harmony, that will attract the most players. I believe that obnoxious behaviour stimulates action, and that when you have two such cretins at a table, in conflict, competing for attention, then you have the best action of all.

jmo

P.S. Do any of you LA players remember "America's Guest?"

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask a silly question?

I've never been to the Commerce, so I have no idea (other than what you all say) what the players/action are like. My question is why does management/dealers put up with the arseholes like this lady Iris who mark the cards, cuss the dealer, throw sh*t, etc. Can these people not act their age? Are they drunk or doing drugs or something?

I can say for certain that this behavior would not be tolerated in other card rooms in other parts of the country. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I play at CAZ. Dealer abuse is not tolerated. A quick example: The other day a player says something pretty bad to a dealer. The dealer doesn't bother calling a floor person over and says to the player: 'Do you want to apologize right now or do you want to go home?' Player apologizes. End of problem.

My guess is that the LA cardrooms are afraid of losing customers to the many other area cardrooms. I am used to abusive people from the business I was in for many years (low-income housing in the Bronx) plus playing poker for over 10 years so it doesn't bother me as much as it does 'regular' people. When I visit SoCal poker rooms it's sort of like going to the zoo for me. I get to see all the interesting animals in their natural habitat.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
I once had someone slice a card in two with a rubberband at 30/60.

[/ QUOTE ]

um... please explain? that must have been some rubber band!

[Wally S]

I just spent five days at the Commerce. I have played there many times over the last 20 years but not for the last year. I cannot imagine playing there on a regular basis. The lack of basic civility permeates every game I played in (40-80, 60-120 & 100-200) and everyone has developed an attitude either as a personna or a defense mechanism. Every sterotype is present, bad behavior is trumpted by worse behavior. Even though the games are good, after five days I couldnt wait to leave.

Those of you who play at the commerce daily must be immune to how the game appears to a part time social player. Compared to the social atmosphere of the 60-120 at the CAZ the Commerce is a verbal war zone.

wally

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad WIKI.... they just include a quote at the end, which causes your misconception...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the clarification. That last paragraph didn't look right and in my original post I asked whether it was correct. Then I edited out the question.

Anyway my friend was referring to Jack having the judgement of King Solomon in the positive sense. IMO his great judgement mostly centers around maximizing his tips.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I just spent five days at the Commerce. I have played there many times over the last 20 years but not for the last year. I cannot imagine playing there on a regular basis. The lack of basic civility permeates every game I played in (40-80, 60-120 & 100-200) and everyone has developed an attitude either as a personna or a defense mechanism. Every sterotype is present, bad behavior is trumpted by worse behavior. Even though the games are good, after five days I couldnt wait to leave.

Those of you who play at the commerce daily must be immune to how the game appears to a part time social player. Compared to the social atmosphere of the 60-120 at the CAZ the Commerce is a verbal war zone. - wally

[/ QUOTE ]

Wally,

There may be thousands of recreational poker players within a thirty minute drive of the Commerce with the money and desire to play these limits who feel exactly as you do. The lost business at the Commerce and other clubs is largely masked by the fact they are in a closed market so they more or less fill up on nights and weekends anyway.

If there was free and open competition I believe the LA card club that demanded reasonably civilized behavior would emerge as number one with the best action.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the Commerce seriously barred Iris (and perhaps a dozen more of her ilk) and kept at it when new cretins emerge does anyone agree that in the long run far more new customers (the types who realize a card room isn't church but expect at least a small degree of civility) would emerge to replace her?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think it is action, rather than harmony, that will attract the most players. I believe that obnoxious behaviour stimulates action, and that when you have two such cretins at a table, in conflict, competing for attention, then you have the best action of all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree action attracts players and that to an extent obnoxious behavior (often provided by an action player) can seemingly stimulate action. By "seemingly" I believe that the LA players experience is to often associate annoying behavior with an action game. But you can have plenty of action and a modicum of civility if card club management demands and enforces the modicum of civility.

~ Rick

[rgold79]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just spent five days at the Commerce. I have played there many times over the last 20 years but not for the last year. I cannot imagine playing there on a regular basis. The lack of basic civility permeates every game I played in (40-80, 60-120 & 100-200) and everyone has developed an attitude either as a personna or a defense mechanism. Every sterotype is present, bad behavior is trumpted by worse behavior. Even though the games are good, after five days I couldnt wait to leave.

Those of you who play at the commerce daily must be immune to how the game appears to a part time social player. Compared to the social atmosphere of the 60-120 at the CAZ the Commerce is a verbal war zone. - wally

[/ QUOTE ]

Wally,

There may be thousands of recreational poker players within a thirty minute drive of the Commerce with the money and desire to play these limits who feel exactly as you do. The lost business at the Commerce and other clubs is largely masked by the fact they are in a closed market so they more or less fill up on nights and weekends anyway.

If there was free and open competition I believe the LA card club that demanded reasonably civilized behavior would emerge as number one with the best action.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

What constraints are there on the market? I take it what you're saying is not just anyone could plop down a room with 300 tables in it next week if they wanted to.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Management wants them around. It's the path of least resistance, and the idiots feed the games. We're run by regulars, not tourists. I'm sure it'd take a while for word to get out that a place has cleaned up, so forseeable-term is +EV for the casino to let them stay.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the short term getting rid of the abusers would be -EV (both for business and action). But over time the club would replace the abusers with far more reasonably behaved people and end up far ahead. If fact eventually you could get back most of the abusers as long as they understood their prior behavior would no longer be tolerated.

Management of course tends to think short term unless they are very secure in their jobs. Even if they are secure they tend to have a mental accounting of how many hours a customer like Iris plays but have no idea how many gentleman "Wally types" (see his post elsewhere in this thread) are driven away by the ugliness of the Iris like behavior.

It's really sad and pathetic.

~ Rick

[Wally S]

Rick -

I think that you are right on with yur analysis. The notion that most people enjoy the aggressive behavior at the Commerce is wrong. Many people enjoy the good action. They equate good action with the bad behavior of some of the bad players and think we must tolerate the behavior to get the action. I think that is wrong. The first place to start is to enforce rules against dealer/staff abuse. They dont deserve such a hostile work enviornment. If dealer abuse was stopped then the player to player abuse would be more noticeable. Most of the worst abusers can and would change their behavior if there were quick and severe consequences meted out. Just like smoking (another addiction) gambolers will change if they have to in order to be able to continue with their addiction.

Wally

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
What constraints are there on the market? I take it what you're saying is not just anyone could plop down a room with 300 tables in it next week if they wanted to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. State law has not even allowed referendums on new card clubs for the past several years and won't until (I think) 2015 or so. A new club hasn't opened in years (The Hustler took over the old licence of The Eldorado).

LA is uniquely advantages for existing card clubs. There are millions of people living within a short drive of essentially five major card clubs and a few smaller ones with no other real legal gambling except horse racing, some bingo, and the lottery.

You can screw up an awful lot and still fill your club at peak hours.

~ Rick

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask a silly question?

I've never been to the Commerce, so I have no idea (other than what you all say) what the players/action are like. My question is why does management/dealers put up with the arseholes like this lady Iris who mark the cards, cuss the dealer, throw sh*t, etc. Can these people not act their age? Are they drunk or doing drugs or something?

I can say for certain that this behavior would not be tolerated in other card rooms in other parts of the country. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I play at CAZ. Dealer abuse is not tolerated. A quick example: The other day a player says something pretty bad to a dealer. The dealer doesn't bother calling a floor person over and says to the player: 'Do you want to apologize right now or do you want to go home?' Player apologizes. End of problem.

My guess is that the LA cardrooms are afraid of losing customers to the many other area cardrooms. I am used to abusive people from the business I was in for many years (low-income housing in the Bronx) plus playing poker for over 10 years so it doesn't bother me as much as it does 'regular' people. When I visit SoCal poker rooms it's sort of like going to the zoo for me. I get to see all the interesting animals in their natural habitat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it ain't tolerated in the rooms I frequent either. I got my hand slapped recently by the female dealer (all 4'11 & 90 lbs of her) because me & some of the guys at my end of the table were BSing & I told them a dirty joke with the word p*ssy in it & she overheard it of course.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
State law has not even allowed referendums on new card clubs for the past several years and won't until (I think) 2015 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

2010.

Even then, the existing clubs will lobby hard to keep the field closed to newcomers.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I play at CAZ. Dealer abuse is not tolerated. A quick example: The other day a player says something pretty bad to a dealer. The dealer doesn't bother calling a floor person over and says to the player: 'Do you want to apologize right now or do you want to go home?' Player apologizes. End of problem.

My guess is that the LA cardrooms are afraid of losing customers to the many other area cardrooms. I am used to abusive people from the business I was in for many years (low-income housing in the Bronx) plus playing poker for over 10 years so it doesn't bother me as much as it does 'regular' people. When I visit SoCal poker rooms it's sort of like going to the zoo for me. I get to see all the interesting animals in their natural habitat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had that one visit to CAZ and found it very pleasant. Here's my quick story:

In the "$5-$150 sort of NL game" I give a guy a bad beat based on the cards he actually had (but my play was reasonable based on my estimate of his range). Anyway the guy keeps on me for several hands with "How can you make that bet/call/raise?" and so on. I reply with my usual silence.

Now the dealer must have thought my feelings were hurt so she comes out and tells the guy "We are mostly here to have fun; please don't criticize the gentleman." (while motioning in my direction; I guess she doesn't know the real me /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I almost passed out from shock.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
State law has not even allowed referendums on new card clubs for the past several years and won't until (I think) 2015 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

2010.

Even then, the existing clubs will lobby hard to keep the field closed to newcomers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lived in Cypress when that city had a referendum around 1992 to put in a large club at Los Alamitos Race track (which is actually in Cypress).

The stack of mail pro and con eventually reached about 2 feet high. Most of the con flyers were funded through the back door by the card clubs.

The measure went down by about a 2 to 1 margin. Cypress did the right thing though; they now have a Costco in that location.

~ Rick

[sternroolz]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask a silly question?

I've never been to the Commerce, so I have no idea (other than what you all say) what the players/action are like. My question is why does management/dealers put up with the arseholes like this lady Iris who mark the cards, cuss the dealer, throw sh*t, etc. Can these people not act their age? Are they drunk or doing drugs or something?


[/ QUOTE ]

All of the above. I can't tell you how odd a reaction I got the last time a player at $20-40 said to a Commerce floorman "You should treat your customers better....I lose 800 f---ing dollars here today!" and I burst into a full on out loud belly laugh.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
But you can have plenty of action and a modicum of civility if card club management demands and enforces the modicum of civility.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Plus, management can still defend the dealers: Sticking up for them in the face of offensive players actually helps to keep the juices flowing--it's another form of confrontation that keeps the offending player on center stage (which is what they really love).

A couple of notes:

There's nothing that prevents players at the table from chastising a player who is abusing a dealer (I could start a thread on this. It can be loads of fun and a good way to enhance tilt); and,

I was playing at the Bike last Jan. and didn't think it was too bad.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't tell you how odd a reaction I got the last time a player at $20-40 said to a Commerce floorman "You should treat your customers better....I lose 800 f---ing dollars here today!" and I burst into a full on out loud belly laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a surprisingly common sentiment among losers.

"NO I will not be quiet," spoken to the floor, "I just lost TWO RACKS here [two racks of $1's, incidentally /images/graemlins/smile.gif] and that gives me the right to say anything I please to anybody I please. And buddy, didn't I tell you at least 10 minutes ago to get me a damned waitress? Where is she? I want my TWO HUNDRED DOLLAR drink!"

He didn't get his drink. But he wasn't playing at Commerce or I'm sure he would have.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
"This ought to be good. Why don't you go over, you know more about the rules than I do."

[/ QUOTE ]

AHLSGDLKJADF
JL;NDGH;LKJA

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THIS IS THE BEST STORY I'VE EVER HEARD.

[Mr Rick]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I ask a silly question?

I've never been to the Commerce, so I have no idea (other than what you all say) what the players/action are like. My question is why does management/dealers put up with the arseholes like this lady Iris who mark the cards, cuss the dealer, throw sh*t , etc. Can these people not act their age? Are they drunk or doing drugs or something?

I can say for certain that this behavior would not be tolerated in other card rooms in other parts of the country. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Foxwoods last Friday 10/20 LHE. Emotional regular has taken his third or fourth awful beat and is down to his last $8 or so. He tells the dealer he sucks, picks up his chips, hurls them just over the dealers shoulder/head, and storms out of the room. The chips slam against the wall (ironically right where the 13 Foxwoods' player rules are posted) and scatter. There is a quiet at the table and a few tables in the vicinity that lasts until the floor picks up the chips, puts them next to the dealer, and says "looks like he air mailed you your tip".

[andyfox]

When people are losing money, they can become jerks. Especially in a game like poker where there's a luck factor.

I play at Commerce fairly often--although I consider myself a social player--and I've found a group of people to socialize and joke with and they're nice, congenial people who are good company. I avoid and ignore the jerks.

[pfapfap]

I'm heartened by stories of CAZ. I've read a variety of good/bad about this place, but that the dealers have power over their tables is a great thing.

To the person suggesting harassing the abuser... I'm curious the feelings of others, but I recommend against railing on them for being mean to a dealer. This rarely helps and only strengthens the person's resolve. At least in my experience. But I appreciate the sentiment. I think a nice subtle thing you could do is throw the dealer a chip, say it's for the effort or something. I'm sure a lot of people don't like it but are afraid to speak up. A small gesture will notify people that there's at least one other person annoyed by it all, which could have a profound impact on the tone of the entire table, not to mention the attitude of the dealer.

I don't know how it is in LA, but with my experience in the Bay Area, the rooms are all their own little worlds, and those running them have had decades to evolve independent of each other. This results in rooms with wildly inconsistent rules and floorpeople who know thier own little mutated world of rules and procedures, with little knowledge of or interest in how other rooms do things.

For a while I got bent out of shape about the abusers and my lack of power to do anything about it, but I've finally been broken, and I just tolerate the a-hole behavior with everybody else and try to ignore it best I can. I tell ya, simply allowing dealers to deal someone out of a hand and know they'll get backed by the floor would solve a boatload of problems. Addicts need their fix, and when confronted with consequences, they'll shape up or be removed. These people feed on people bending to them. We do nobody any good by enabling.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm heartened by stories of CAZ. I've read a variety of good/bad about this place, but that the dealers have power over their tables is a great thing.

To the person suggesting harassing the abuser... I'm curious the feelings of others, but I recommend against railing on them for being mean to a dealer. This rarely helps and only strengthens the person's resolve. At least in my experience. But I appreciate the sentiment. I think a nice subtle thing you could do is throw the dealer a chip, say it's for the effort or something. I'm sure a lot of people don't like it but are afraid to speak up. A small gesture will notify people that there's at least one other person annoyed by it all, which could have a profound impact on the tone of the entire table, not to mention the attitude of the dealer.

I don't know how it is in LA, but with my experience in the Bay Area, the rooms are all their own little worlds, and those running them have had decades to evolve independent of each other. This results in rooms with wildly inconsistent rules and floorpeople who know thier own little mutated world of rules and procedures, with little knowledge of or interest in how other rooms do things.

For a while I got bent out of shape about the abusers and my lack of power to do anything about it, but I've finally been broken, and I just tolerate the a-hole behavior with everybody else and try to ignore it best I can. I tell ya, simply allowing dealers to deal someone out of a hand and know they'll get backed by the floor would solve a boatload of problems. Addicts need their fix, and when confronted with consequences, they'll shape up or be removed. These people feed on people bending to them. We do nobody any good by enabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

The room where I play the most, I know quite a few of the dealers & other regulars pretty well, so it's not uncommon for one of us to stick up for a dealer (the women dealers especially) if they are getting abused by a drunk, losing, a$$hole. I'm a pretty nice, easy going person at the table but I won't hesitate to tell somebody to STFU if they get outta line.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"This ought to be good. Why don't you go over, you know more about the rules than I do."

[/ QUOTE ]

AHLSGDLKJADF
JL;NDGH;LKJA

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THIS IS THE BEST STORY I'VE EVER HEARD.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't surprising at all if you knew Marcel. I got a decent ruling in a white chip game once from Luis but it took awhile. I'm really drawing a blank trying to think of a floorman who is reliable if you need a ruling. Luckily the bigger games tend to police themselves, if you are on the right side of the regulars.

-DeathDonkey

[chillrob]

I am a bit confused - abusive players at the Commerce? But it says right on their chips "LA's Friendliest Casino"!

Seriously, that certainly is not the only place with this kind of problem. I have never played higher than 4/8 at the Commerce and have only been there a few times, but they honestly were the friendliest games I have played in LA (except for the [censored] in the Omaha game).

The last time I played the 6/12 at Hollywood Park someone got mad and crumpled his cards after losing with top pair crappy kicker, with something like Q6o. I complained to the player and he said something like "they can afford the new deck". I said "that's not the point, I came to play poker not wait for new decks". At that point I resisted the urge to add "if you didn't play crap hands you wouldn't have the problem to beging with!" and let the matter drop.

[magoo]

Andy Fox. You have any gossip on what ever happened to
Nilly Premrajh?

[andyfox]

??

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know how it is in LA, but with my experience in the Bay Area, the rooms are all their own little worlds, and those running them have had decades to evolve independent of each other. This results in rooms with wildly inconsistent rules and floorpeople who know thier own little mutated world of rules and procedures, with little knowledge of or interest in how other rooms do things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can honestly say that Bay101 has been doing a better job of keeping the abuse to a minimum. I have seen 5 players 86'd, one was perma-banned (stealing, so she prolly doesn't count), for various levels of abuse or what-not in the last 2 months or so.