Religious Wishful Thinking

[godBoy]

I was struck by the incredible wishful thinking of the Bahai Faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai). What I mean to say is that if I were to design a religion I would probably come up with something just like this. I could never do this though, this seems to me like the greatest of all intellectual dishonesties.

In fact I see Judaism and Christianity's ridiculous doctrines and beliefs as strong reasons that they weren't made up, and not merely Wishful Thinking.

Circumcision proves to me one of two things - God told these early Jews certain things, or they were insane.
I can't comprehend any man taking a look at his genitals and saying...

Joe: Hey Benny, you know what? I reckon it would be a really good idea to cut the skin off the end of our penis's. Benny: Yeah! I'll get my brothers and sons!

If I were to design a religion, Judaism or Christianity is not what I would come up with in a million years.

[Phil153]

First let me say I love your candor on these boards.

[ QUOTE ]
In fact I see Judaism and Christianity's ridiculous doctrines and beliefs as strong reasons that they weren't made up, and not merely Wishful Thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
So why aren't you a Scientologist or Hindu?

[ QUOTE ]
Circumcision proves to me one of two things - God told these early Jews certain things, or they were insane.
I can't comprehend any man taking a look at his genitals and saying...

[/ QUOTE ]
Tribes all over the world have bizarre mutilating practices.

[ QUOTE ]
If I were to design a religion, Judaism or Christianity is not what I would come up with in a million years.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get inside the mind of an old Jewish man from a few thousand years ago (actually, one today will suffice). Then imagine wandering homeless in a brutal land. Consider that Jewish society was run by staid old Jewish men. It'll make things a lot clearer.

[btmagnetw]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact I see Judaism and Christianity's ridiculous doctrines and beliefs as strong reasons that they weren't made up, and not merely Wishful Thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]by this logic, every religion ever made is true. well done.

[Phil153]

I'd also add that it's very interesting to look at the development of religion from a broader perspective - namely, the traits of the people and lands that created these religions.

Consider the American Indians. Wide open spaces, rich lands, vast forests, moderate intelligence. They believed in the spirit of the Earth and ghosts of the forest.

Now switch to the Middle East. Warring tribes and the brutal desert created the Old Testament, a garden of Eden, the curse and sin. Individuals cramped into small spaces create stories of men and families, and a God that's old and jealous and cruel. Then Jesus comes to take away that sin and the cruelty of God, and Mohammad comes to guide the Arab tribes onto greatest and independence against those they war against.

Now switch to China. Vast, open spaces. Mountains that reach to the sun. A population with high intelligence. Dynasties that span thousands of years. An eternal, reflective religion is born, called Buddhism.

Now switch to the humid jungles of India and South East Asia, and forests rich with color and life and diversity. The people here spawn hundreds of Gods, which are jealous and proud and seductive and peaceful and everything in between, and a rich fabric of stories. Hinduism is born, a religion as colorful as the jungle itself.

So I hope you can see how religion is born, and how they reflect the experiences of the local culture over time. Christianity is but another example of this phenomena.

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In fact I see Judaism and Christianity's ridiculous doctrines and beliefs as strong reasons that they weren't made up, and not merely Wishful Thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
So why aren't you a Scientologist or Hindu?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hinduism seems made up to me - What other God's do I need to explain something today? Oh, I have a good one!!

I don't know too much about Scientology apart from that Southpark episode and what Tom Cruise has said /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I guess while some claims are outlandish there is enough in the bible that is testable and verifiable, the historical and geographical stuff. It doesn't sound like science fiction nor have the mythical flavour that I would expect to see.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Circumcision proves to me one of two things - God told these early Jews certain things, or they were insane.
I can't comprehend any man taking a look at his genitals and saying...

[/ QUOTE ]
Tribes all over the world have bizarre mutilating practices.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not really familiar with other examples like circumcision - But what you describe are primary doctrines that are to be followed by all followers?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were to design a religion, Judaism or Christianity is not what I would come up with in a million years.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get inside the mind of an old Jewish man from a few thousand years ago (actually, one today will suffice). Then imagine wandering homeless in a brutal land. Consider that Jewish society was run by staid old Jewish men. It'll make things a lot clearer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh you're a true skeptic Phil, that's not a bad thing at all but I don't wish to explain away everything I consider.
Point taken, i'll think on it some more.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I was struck by the incredible wishful thinking of the Bahai Faith. What I mean to say is that if I were to design a religion I would probably come up with something just like this. I could never do this though, this seems to me like the greatest of all intellectual dishonesties.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, godboy, here is the challenge: what particular Bahai's book have you read?

You are really demonstrating the fundamental dishonesty of your faith with these statements.

[godBoy]

I've only just heard of the Bahai Faith and read the wikipedia article on it, so I haven't read any books on it.

[ QUOTE ]
You are really demonstrating the fundamental dishonesty of your faith with these statements.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're either too deep for me, or far too simple. I'm just discussing here, that's allowed right? You're sucking my will to live.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I've only just heard of the Bahai Faith and read the wikipedia article on it, so I haven't read any books on it.

[ QUOTE ]
You are really demonstrating the fundamental dishonesty of your faith with these statements.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're either too deep for me, or far too simple. I'm just discussing here, that's allowed right? You're sucking my will to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

I repeat, "OK, godboy, here is the challenge: what particular Bahai's book have you read?" since you seem to selectively answer and want to discuss.

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've only just heard of the Bahai Faith and read the wikipedia article on it, so I haven't read any books on it.

[ QUOTE ]
You are really demonstrating the fundamental dishonesty of your faith with these statements.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're either too deep for me, or far too simple. I'm just discussing here, that's allowed right? You're sucking my will to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

I repeat, "OK, godboy, here is the challenge: what particular Bahai's book have you read?" since you seem to selectively answer and want to discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your argument sucks AND cuts.. Well it certainly does suck.
If you ever comment on this forum in the future I will be sure to get you to quote your textual sources..

I'd like to think that these forums are open enough to discuss any thoughts that people are interested in. Perhaps I may even learn something about the Bahai Faith, or myself in the process.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to think that these forums are open enough to discuss any thoughts that people are interested in. Perhaps I may even learn something about the Bahai Faith, or myself in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that discussion on these forums was at least a little bit informed. But, hey, it doesn't apply to all posters!

PS Plenty to learn about yourself... I suggest you carefully re-read all your posts by doing a search on your username. Come to think, of it, I suggest everyone that has the time and is interested in your posts does that, like they may do on my posts. They should be able to judge consistency very easily from this simple test.

[Taraz]

My parents are both Baha'is and I've always said that if I were to decide to become religious I'd probably be a Baha'i. I know a hell of a lot about it, so I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about it.

It's a pretty optimistic religion, but I think that's why people like it.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In fact I see Judaism and Christianity's ridiculous doctrines and beliefs as strong reasons that they weren't made up, and not merely Wishful Thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
So why aren't you a Scientologist or Hindu?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hinduism seems made up to me - What other God's do I need to explain something today? Oh, I have a good one!!

I don't know too much about Scientology apart from that Southpark episode and what Tom Cruise has said /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I guess while some claims are outlandish there is enough in the bible that is testable and verifiable, the historical and geographical stuff. It doesn't sound like science fiction nor have the mythical flavour that I would expect to see.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Circumcision proves to me one of two things - God told these early Jews certain things, or they were insane.
I can't comprehend any man taking a look at his genitals and saying...

[/ QUOTE ]
Tribes all over the world have bizarre mutilating practices.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not really familiar with other examples like circumcision - But what you describe are primary doctrines that are to be followed by all followers?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were to design a religion, Judaism or Christianity is not what I would come up with in a million years.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get inside the mind of an old Jewish man from a few thousand years ago (actually, one today will suffice). Then imagine wandering homeless in a brutal land. Consider that Jewish society was run by staid old Jewish men. It'll make things a lot clearer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh you're a true skeptic Phil, that's not a bad thing at all but I don't wish to explain away everything I consider.
Point taken, i'll think on it some more.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Christianity is too fantastical and ridiculous to be made up!"

"I don't believe in Hinduism because it is too fantastical and ridiculous...seems made up."

Also, LOL at 'explain away.' 'Explain' will do just fine, thanks.

[MegaloMialo]

[ QUOTE ]

In fact I see Judaism and Christianity's ridiculous doctrines and beliefs as strong reasons that they weren't made up, and not merely Wishful Thinking.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have read the bible and it seems well within the limits of what the human mind could be able to create.
Your beliefs does not seem to stand on a very solid foundation.
How can you use the word ridicules when speaking of your own religion?

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
My parents are both Baha'is and I've always said that if I were to decide to become religious I'd probably be a Baha'i. I know a hell of a lot about it, so I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about it.

It's a pretty optimistic religion, but I think that's why people like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably the expert around here on the Religion Taraz. I briefly investigated it years ago and attended an Introductory Meeting once for it. I haven't looked at it since. I'm a little vague as to why I decided it wasn't for me. My memory impression is that I saw implicit in it the goal of eventually establishing a Global Bahai Theocracy. This would not be inconsistent with the Islamic traditions from which it sprang.

I just refreshed my memory by reading the Wikipedia entry. Its most attractive feature is the Respect it tries to express toward the various world religions and its vision of God working in history with people everywhere. The "Greater Covenant" as they call it. It has a lot of good principles. They consider Bahai to be a Lesser Covenant, like other major religions.

However, I see it has an authoritative governing body that does not allow disent. From Wikipedia:

[ QUOTE ]
With unity as an essential teaching of the religion, Bahá'ís follow an administration that they believe is divinely ordained, and therefore see attempts to create schisms and divisions as insignificant, doomed efforts which are contrary to the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh. Throughout Bahá'í history schisms have occurred over the succession of authority. The followers of the various Bahá'í divisions, who in total, number in the low thousands, are regarded as Covenant-breakers and shunned, essentially excommunicated.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you have to accept the Authority of the Bahai leadership. I assume this includes acceptance of the specific laws of behavior which include:

[ QUOTE ]

.
Bahá'ís over the age of 15 recite an obligatory prayer each day. There are three such prayers among which one can be chosen each day.
.
Adult Bahá'ís in good health observe a nineteen-day sunrise-to-sunset fast each year from March 2 through March 20.
.
Bahá'ís are forbidden to drink alcohol or to take drugs, unless prescribed by doctors.
.
Sexual relationships are permitted only between a husband and wife, and thus h-mosexual acts are not permitted.
.
Gambling is strictly forbidden.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
While in authoritative teachings homosexuality is described as a condition which an individual should control and overcome, Bahá'ís are left to apply the teachings at their own discretion, and are discouraged from singling out homosexuality over other transgressions, such as the consumption of alcohol, or heterosexual promiscuity. Membership in the Bahá'í community is therefore open to lesbian and gay adherents, who are to be "advised and sympathized with".

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The laws, when not in direct conflict with the civil laws of the country of residence, are binding on every Bahá'í, and the observance of personal laws, such as prayer or fasting, is the sole responsibility of the individual.


[/ QUOTE ]

So while in some respects the Religion appears open to broad communication with other religions of the Lesser Covenant, it also has features that appear cramped and closed. I think it sees itself less as Common Ground on which all religions can gather and more as Central Ground to which all people are eventually expected to concentrate. Furthermore, I don't see it communicating with the NonReligious.

So I don't see the Bahai Faith as the future of human spirituality. In my view, the common ground which we are headed for is one of the Spirit. I see this idea in the prophetic passage in the Bible where it says something to the effect of, "many people will say he is here or he is there, but he will come in glory on the clouds of heaven". The coming together of humanity will not be focused on any particular Religious Doctrine and the NonReligious will participate just as fully as the Religious. It will be a coming together in the Life of the Spirit. It may not happen until Orthodox Christianity is in the same kind of unmarked grave as the body of Jesus. But when it happens in full it will be the Fullfillment of the message of Christ. The Kingdom of Heaven will indeed be Present.

PairTheBoard

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably the expert around here on the Religion Taraz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably true, but I hardly think I qualify as an expert.

[ QUOTE ]
I briefly investigated it years ago and attended an Introductory Meeting once for it. I haven't looked at it since. I'm a little vague as to why I decided it wasn't for me. My memory impression is that I saw implicit in it the goal of eventually establishing a Global Bahai Theocracy. This would not be inconsistent with the Islamic traditions from which it sprang.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is semi-true. There is definitely supposed to be an establishment of a world government. It's pretty unclear whether this is supposed to be a Baha'i organization or a secular organization though. There is actually a lot of contention within the Baha'i Faith about it. Unfortunately, the current leadership seems like they like the theocracy idea. Fortunately, leaders are elected by popular vote and a world government would be very far in the future.

[ QUOTE ]

I just refreshed my memory by reading the Wikipedia entry. Its most attractive feature is the Respect it tries to express toward the various world religions and its vision of God working in history with people everywhere. The "Greater Covenant" as they call it. It has a lot of good principles. They consider Bahai to be a Lesser Covenant, like other major religions.

However, I see it has an authoritative governing body that does not allow disent. From Wikipedia:

[ QUOTE ]
With unity as an essential teaching of the religion, Bahá'ís follow an administration that they believe is divinely ordained, and therefore see attempts to create schisms and divisions as insignificant, doomed efforts which are contrary to the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh. Throughout Bahá'í history schisms have occurred over the succession of authority. The followers of the various Bahá'í divisions, who in total, number in the low thousands, are regarded as Covenant-breakers and shunned, essentially excommunicated.


[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, semi-true. Schisms are definitely not tolerated. Calling the administration "divinely ordained" isn't exactly correct though. They aren't infallible, and they are elected officials. There isn't any clergy or anything, it's pretty democratic.

The whole covenant-breaker thing is kind of outdated though.
I don't think people are branded covenant-breakers anymore. If the admnistrative officials are mad at you they can take away your "administrative rights" which doesn't really mean much. I think you can't hold office or something.

[ QUOTE ]

So you have to accept the Authority of the Bahai leadership. I assume this includes acceptance of the specific laws of behavior which include:

[ QUOTE ]

.
Bahá'ís over the age of 15 recite an obligatory prayer each day. There are three such prayers among which one can be chosen each day.
.
Adult Bahá'ís in good health observe a nineteen-day sunrise-to-sunset fast each year from March 2 through March 20.
.
Bahá'ís are forbidden to drink alcohol or to take drugs, unless prescribed by doctors.
.
Sexual relationships are permitted only between a husband and wife, and thus h-mosexual acts are not permitted.
.
Gambling is strictly forbidden.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
While in authoritative teachings homosexuality is described as a condition which an individual should control and overcome, Bahá'ís are left to apply the teachings at their own discretion, and are discouraged from singling out homosexuality over other transgressions, such as the consumption of alcohol, or heterosexual promiscuity. Membership in the Bahá'í community is therefore open to lesbian and gay adherents, who are to be "advised and sympathized with".

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The laws, when not in direct conflict with the civil laws of the country of residence, are binding on every Bahá'í, and the observance of personal laws, such as prayer or fasting, is the sole responsibility of the individual.


[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

This last quote is the important one. Almost all the laws are what are called "personal laws" here. Basically, it's supposed to between you and God and nobody is supposed to be able to say anything to you about it. I mean, prayer, fasting, sex, drugs . . . that's all in your private life. I know many Baha'is consider these laws guidelines to a "pure and holy life". It's not like I'm excommunicated because I play poker or anything like that.

The homosexuality thing is also a big current issue. One of the main principles of the Baha'i Faith is that science and religion must go hand in hand. So basically, if science tells us that homosexuality is normal, Baha'is are supposed to accept that. That's pretty much all there is to it. I know there are gay Baha'is and they're trying to change a few minds.

For the most part, these are all very personal things so it's kind of like a don't-ask-don't-tell kind of thing. Which is obviously good and bad. It's nice that back-biting is one of the most frowned upon things for Baha'is. So even if you find out someone is a debaucherous whore, you're really not supposed to talk to other people about it.

[ QUOTE ]

So while in some respects the Religion appears open to broad communication with other religions of the Lesser Covenant, it also has features that appear cramped and closed. I think it sees itself less as Common Ground on which all religions can gather and more as Central Ground to which all people are eventually expected to concentrate. Furthermore, I don't see it communicating with the NonReligious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again I don't think things are this clear. The Baha'i Faith appeals to people of all religions because it basically accepts all religions. It's the whole "progressive revelation" idea where God sends messengers to humanity at different times in history when they are ready to receive his message. So basically Baha'is believe that the Baha'i Faith is just the most current and up-to-date of all the religions. They're basically saying, "Christianity is so 2000 year's ago." It's fine, but it's not as applicable to today's society.

As far as communicating with the non-religious, I think the principles of the Baha'i faith are pretty incredible. You can use it as more of a philosophy, but it's definitely not as good as something like Buddhism in that respect. My dad is basically an atheist, but he likes the sense of community and he likes the message. The basic tenets are as follows:

- Oneness of humanity
- Equality of men and women
- Elimination of prejudice of all kinds
- Independent investigation of truth (huge, in my opinion. You're not supposed to take anybody's word as truth without investigating it yourself.)
- The harmony of science and religion (also huge. I think the actual wording is that religion "must conform to science and reason")
- Universal education
- All religions are one (basically we're all looking for the same thing and come from the same place)

[ QUOTE ]

So I don't see the Bahai Faith as the future of human spirituality. In my view, the common ground which we are headed for is one of the Spirit. I see this idea in the prophetic passage in the Bible where it says something to the effect of, "many people will say he is here or he is there, but he will come in glory on the clouds of heaven". The coming together of humanity will not be focused on any particular Religious Doctrine and the NonReligious will participate just as fully as the Religious. It will be a coming together in the Life of the Spirit. It may not happen until Orthodox Christianity is in the same kind of unmarked grave as the body of Jesus. But when it happens in full it will be the Fullfillment of the message of Christ. The Kingdom of Heaven will indeed be Present.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I think every faith has a lot to like and a lot not to like. I personally don't like any of them enough to be active in any faith. And there's the fact that I'm pretty sure God doesn't exist. But I think I like the Baha'i Faith the most out of all of them.

[tsearcher]

[ QUOTE ]


Circumcision proves to me one of two things - God told these early Jews certain things, or they were insane.
I can't comprehend any man taking a look at his genitals and saying...

Joe: Hey Benny, you know what? I reckon it would be a really good idea to cut the skin off the end of our penis's. Benny: Yeah! I'll get my brothers and sons!

[/ QUOTE ]

There are some practical reasons for circumcision in a dry, dusty and sandy environment. Other than that, think of any initiation ritual, religious or not. A lot of them are painful, cruel and/or silly. But they still serve a purpose. They make the club exclusive, while at the same time give everyone in the club a common bond.

[Lestat]

I'm not a history buff on this subject, but I'm pretty sure circumcisions were around long before religion. The foreskin traps bacteria and makes keeping this area clean harder. It was realized that by removing it, infections would be reduced.

Please try to use at least some common sense godBoy! Circumsions are certainly not PROOF of Christianity. Do you realize how incredibly absurd such a statement is? It's as though you are begging for people to insult your intellect!

[PairTheBoard]

Thanks Taraz.

You certainly have to respect the Bahai's for persevering in the face of the persecution they've had to deal with. It's really hard to see much to criticize. I guess Muslims don't like them because they reduce The Final Prophet of God to just another prophet. And the Christians don't like them because they mess with the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. So communication with them by the other religions might not be as easy as the Bahai tolerance would make it appear.

The Theocracy thing would be a big problem for me. They would do well to adopt a principle of seperation between Religion and the State in my opinion. Maybe they will in the future.

I agree that Orthodox Christianity is showing a lot of signs of age. But I see the message of Jesus as really transcending religious doctrine. That transcendent message has a life of its own in my view. People are touched by it by being touched by the Lives of others, not by religious doctrine. I see that as truly radical and universal. Another prophet with another religious doctrine, no matter how tolerant it tries to be of other religions, is just another religion to me. Although I admit that as religions go it's hard to find much fault with it.

PairTheBoard

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Taraz.

You certainly have to respect the Bahai's for persevering in the face of the persecution they've had to deal with. It's really hard to see much to criticize. I guess Muslims don't like them because they reduce The Final Prophet of God to just another prophet. And the Christians don't like them because they mess with the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. So communication with them by the other religions might not be as easy as the Bahai tolerance would make it appear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess so. As hard as it would be for Jews to believe Jesus is the savior and Christians to accept Muhammad though.

[ QUOTE ]

The Theocracy thing would be a big problem for me. They would do well to adopt a principle of seperation between Religion and the State in my opinion. Maybe they will in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm a little worried about the direction the religion is taking. I'm not really sure how often elections are or anything, but I'm hopeful it will change. Even though I'm not really religious, I would like to see it do well. I think the whole science and religion thing would be great for religion. I think if all fundamentalists were Baha'i fundamentalists, things would be a little better /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree that Orthodox Christianity is showing a lot of signs of age. But I see the message of Jesus as really transcending religious doctrine. That transcendent message has a life of its own in my view. People are touched by it by being touched by the Lives of others, not by religious doctrine. I see that as truly radical and universal. Another prophet with another religious doctrine, no matter how tolerant it tries to be of other religions, is just another religion to me. Although I admit that as religions go it's hard to find much fault with it.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Baha'is would agree with you about Jesus's message. They think that all Abrahamic religions carry the same message from God, just updated for the time period. So I don't think you would have much of an argument there. There shouldn't be any incompatibility between your feeling on Jesus's message and Baha'i "doctrine".

In fact, I know several hardcore Christians who converted to the Baha'i Faith. They all thought it was an extension of Christ's message, but they had difficulty letting go of the Trinity.

I don't mean to be so rah-rah about the Baha'i Faith. I'm not really trying to build it up as anything great. But as far as organized religions go, I think it's as good as it gets (which isn't saying much).

[oe39]

being created in the image of god and having the possibility of eternal bliss seems like wishful thinking to me

[Audrey]

"So I hope you can see how religion is born, and how they reflect the experiences of the local culture over time."

With this in mind, it's interesting to observe the advent of globalisation and the capitalist economic systems in the last 100 years and with it the rise of the bahai teachings.

They are quite complementary to say the least.

[godBoy]

Does the Bahai's holy text, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas openly say it is a collection of religious material from the other world religions or is it written in the 'Word of God' style?
I'm curious as to how the book is written, Is it mainly instructional? Being written entirely by the same person I would imagine the whole book to be written in a similar style of delivery, is this correct?

The idea of the religion isn't that unfamiliar to me, I actually posed the question a while back asking whether there were recurring themes throughout world religions and if somehow the teachings could have pointing to the same thing. Also, I asked if a correlation of the world religions could create a truer representation of God, it's a fascinating idea and one that I seemed to contemplate without even hearing the philosophy of the faith.

[godBoy]

I wasn't for a minute saying that circumcision was a PROOF of Christianity, I was under the impression though that the practice did start with the Jewish race, you may be right in saying it had other origins.

According to Genesis, God told Abraham to circumcise himself, his household and his slaves as an everlasting covenant in their flesh.

Moving on from circumcision - there are countless examples from the bible that I could use where it's 'uncut' delivery makes it seem far less likely it was the result of clever planning. This is my point about it being 'not made up' - I don't mean the whole religion is true because of these, I think that these examples show that the people actually believed what they were writing, and didn't seek to 'improve' it like is said so often on these forums.

It seems more likely to me that the people earnestly believed what they were writing/collecting and that they sought to preserve the message 'warts and all'.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't for a minute saying that circumcision was a PROOF of Christianity, I was under the impression though that the practice did start with the Jewish race, you may be right in saying it had other origins.

According to Genesis, God told Abraham to circumcise himself, his household and his slaves as an everlasting covenant in their flesh.

Moving on from circumcision - there are countless examples from the bible that I could use where it's 'uncut' delivery makes it seem far less likely it was the result of clever planning. This is my point about it being 'not made up' - I don't mean the whole religion is true because of these, I think that these examples show that the people actually believed what they were writing, and didn't seek to 'improve' it like is said so often on these forums.

It seems more likely to me that the people earnestly believed what they were writing/collecting and that they sought to preserve the message 'warts and all'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Parts of Pet Sematary struck me as poorly worded and 'uncut,' and had I been writing it, I would have chosen different words. That doesn't mean that King wasn't writing the book with a specific goal in mind, and crafting the story to best accomplish that goal. He just wasn't perfect.

In the hundreds of pages in the Bible, there are bound to be places where people created stories, rituals or accounts that, a couple thousand years later, seem "too crazy to be made up."

[oe39]

isn't this even more true of religions that involve human sacrifce?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't for a minute saying that circumcision was a PROOF of Christianity, I was under the impression though that the practice did start with the Jewish race, you may be right in saying it had other origins.

According to Genesis, God told Abraham to circumcise himself, his household and his slaves as an everlasting covenant in their flesh.

Moving on from circumcision - there are countless examples from the bible that I could use where it's 'uncut' delivery makes it seem far less likely it was the result of clever planning. This is my point about it being 'not made up' - I don't mean the whole religion is true because of these, I think that these examples show that the people actually believed what they were writing, and didn't seek to 'improve' it like is said so often on these forums.

It seems more likely to me that the people earnestly believed what they were writing/collecting and that they sought to preserve the message 'warts and all'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because people believed what they were writing doesn't make it true.

Also, I think that when people on these forums talk about the authors trying to 'improve' the stories, they're referring specifically to the gospels rather than the whole Bible. I think it's quite likely that the majority of the Bible was written by people who really did believe what they were writing.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
Does the Bahai's holy text, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas openly say it is a collection of religious material from the other world religions or is it written in the 'Word of God' style?
I'm curious as to how the book is written, Is it mainly instructional? Being written entirely by the same person I would imagine the whole book to be written in a similar style of delivery, is this correct?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's definitely written in the "Word of God" style. "It has been decried by the Almighty . . ." That sort of thing. It's basically a revelation of a code of living. I guess it all depends on how you read it though. A lot of the passages deal with the current religious laws of the time by updating and/or dismissing them. The book is very much about the administrative aspects of the Baha'i Faith.

Honestly, there are several other books and letters that the religion's prophet, Baha'u'llah, wrote that are better to read. The Kitab-i-Iqan is better for learning about the basic tenets of the religion and what the Baha'i attitudes are toward God and other religions. It's more about the theology of the Baha'i Faith. The Hidden Words is also pretty good. It's a collection of short passages that are supposed be more mystical and reflective. I think most people who consider themselves spiritual but not religious would like them.

It's really strange for me to be the one supplying all this information, since I'm not really a big believer in religion. But I want accurate information to be out there for those that want it.

[yukoncpa]

Ancient Egyptians were circumcising certain males long before Abrahamic religions were invented
( as long as 4200 years ago ). This practice was so wacky, that I’m pretty sure that Thesbu, the ancient God of circumcision, must be a God that we should worship, along with Isis, and Osiris, et al..

[ QUOTE ]
Circumcision was practiced in Ancient Egypt with one record as far back as over 4,200 years ago mentioning the circumcision of 120 boys in a single ceremony. It appears to have been carried out at puberty and on reaching adolescence the side-lock worn by young male children also disappeared. The rite was called the Sebi and became compulsory for all priests of the temples if not for all youths. It may have been for 'cleanliness' in a hot dusty land as Herodotus said, but it also appeared to have religious and ethnic significance as it differentiated them from foreigners. A religious custom, as we know, also adopted by the Israelites. The Egyptians also shaved their pubic hair, probably at first as a means of preventing lice but developing as a fashion. Appreciation of physical appearance and the use of beauty aids and techniques have been common in all societies and are reflected in their customs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sex in early Egypt (http://users.bigpond.net.au/bstone/sex_and_egypt.htm)

[godBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because people believed what they were writing doesn't make it true.

[/ QUOTE ]
I realize that, and i'm not jumping that gun. Though it definitely makes it more true than if it were held by people who were designing it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think that when people on these forums talk about the authors trying to 'improve' the stories, they're referring specifically to the gospels rather than the whole Bible. I think it's quite likely that the majority of the Bible was written by people who really did believe what they were writing.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is what I am referring to, it seems to me if someone decided to 'improve' the gospels they did a piss poor job of it. If it were me in that time I wouldn't have had some of the most pivotal moments like the resurrection being witnessed firstly by women, they had little credibility back then. I also would have fixed the things that 'seem' on the face of it open contradictions - If I were crafting the gospels to be perfect I would have done a much better job than those that 'supposedly' did so.

Obviously people disagree with this but I don't think you can have it both ways, that is believe that there are far too many contradictions in the gospels, AND believe that the parts that match are plagiarized.

I think my view is much more consistent - that because the original text was thoroughly believed in by it's authors and keepers, it was preserved 'warts and all' and that makes it more reliable than is made out.

[godBoy]

thanks for the linky, fascinating.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]

This is what I am referring to, it seems to me if someone decided to 'improve' the gospels they did a piss poor job of it. If it were me in that time I wouldn't have had some of the most pivotal moments like the resurrection being witnessed firstly by women, they had little credibility back then. I also would have fixed the things that 'seem' on the face of it open contradictions - If I were crafting the gospels to be perfect I would have done a much better job than those that 'supposedly' did so.


[/ QUOTE ]

We had this discussion with txag a while back. Check out these three threads:

Part I (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=scimathphil&Number=953924 5&Searchpage=1&Main=9539245&Words=religion+txag007 &topic=&Search=true#Post9539245)

Part II (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=scimathphil&Number=955094 1&Searchpage=1&Main=9550941&Words=religion+txag007 &topic=&Search=true#Post9550941)

Part III (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=scimathphil&Number=956105 9&Searchpage=1&Main=9561059&Words=religion+txag007 &topic=&Search=true#Post9561059)

Posters much more knowledgeable than myself address the points you make in this thread.