What % of SMP believe in Ghosts? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Woolygimp

05-13-2007, 12:35 AM

I'm relatively young, so I have to base my decision completely off of testimony given by others which is by default circumstantial and dubious.

I understand that the majority of cases are in fact [censored]; for instance, I went through a case of sleep paralysis (sp?) about 2 years ago. I had a white shirt draped over a chair in the corner of my room, and I had awoke in the middle of the night. Well in these cases a person wakes up, but the chemical responsible for the temporary paralysis is still taking effect. The result?

I have never been so terrified in my life, since I was half asleep I couldn't make out the 'figure' (chair w/ shirt) in the corner, and I tried for about 5 minutes to scream as loud as I could and I couldn't make a sound.

Obviously nothing supernatural occurred here, and I could see how some ignorant middle aged woman would think that she was under attack by the spirit of Abraham Lincoln's pet canary. However, there are some cases by friends, family, and people who aren't exactly at the bottom tier of the intelligence ladder (professors/doctors) who swear up and down on their own personal experiences.

This puts me on the wire, and I'm not sure what to believe. I'm assuming most of you have strong opinions against anything such as ghosts existing, but I just wanted to gauge the opinion here.

BillNye

05-13-2007, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I have never been so terrified in my life, since I was half asleep I couldn't make out the 'figure' (chair w/ shirt) in the corner, and I tried for about 5 minutes to scream as loud as I could and I couldn't make a sound.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, one time I had a dream of something super scary and I felt like I woke up (im almost positive I did unless I was dreaming myself dreaming and getting scared then screaming within my dream), I tried to scream but my mouth wouldnt open. I thought it was because my mouth had dried shut or something, maybe I have sleep paralysis too?

This is the only time I remember tho, what type of thing should I look for in the future to help self-diagnos myself.

Woolygimp

05-13-2007, 01:17 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Fuseli_nightmare.jpg

[ QUOTE ]
Physiologically, it is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, which is known as REM atonia. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, but the bodily paralysis persists. This leaves the person fully aware, but unable to move. In addition, the state may be accompanied by hypnagogic hallucinations.

More often than not, sleep paralysis is believed by the person affected by it to be no more than a dream. This explains many dream recountings which describe the person lying frozen and unable to move. The hallucinatory element to sleep paralysis makes it even more likely that someone will interpret the experience as a dream, since completely fanciful objects may appear in the room alongside one's normal vision.

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It's not fun. I'm not exaggerating when I said it was the scariest 5 minutes I've ever experienced.

SNOWBALL

05-13-2007, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]

It's not fun. I'm not exaggerating when I said it was the scariest 5 minutes I've ever experienced.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to get it somewhat often also. Sometimes it would be AWFUL. Other times, it wasn't so bad. I know a girl who gets it and she lucidly sees and feels demons pulling out her finger nails and torturing her.

SNOWBALL

05-13-2007, 02:15 AM

absolutely everything that you are capable of feeling, seeing, or hearing, already exists in your brain at this very moment.

PairTheBoard

05-13-2007, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I tried for about 5 minutes to scream as loud as I could and I couldn't make a sound.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem is I am sometimes able to make quite a considerable sound. I'm always afraid the neighbors are going to call the police. In case anybody is worried I usually call out something like, "Just a Nightmare. Nevermind".

I don't much like it when the bed starts shaking or I start to feel hands grabbing at me. I get worried I'm going to need an exorcist or something. Anyway, I'm always pretty happy when I wake up. It can be even better when it's a false wakeup. Where I think I've waken up and can move around but I'm still asleep then realize I might still be asleep. I usually test the theory by walking through a wall. If I can do it I know I'm dreaming. Then the fun really starts.

PairTheBoard

vhawk01

05-13-2007, 01:31 PM

How would we know if ghosts existed?
EDIT: Also, yes they exist, but only invisible purple ones.

Nielsio

05-13-2007, 02:18 PM

What is a ghost?

tomdemaine

05-13-2007, 02:50 PM

Isn't it weird that you never see a black ghost.

Woolygimp

05-13-2007, 04:14 PM

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Isn't it weird that you never see a black ghost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got a friends dad who ardently disbelieved in ghosts etc. He stayed at the Myrtles plantation, and he swears up and down that he saw the ghost of the black slave there.

Woolygimp

05-13-2007, 04:15 PM

Also Pairtheboard, what you're experiencing is called a 'night terror'. Totally different from sleep paralysis, as with sleep paralysis you couldn't move your lips if your life depended on it. Total feeling of helplessness.

man

05-13-2007, 05:08 PM

[quote
It's not fun. I'm not exaggerating when I said it was the scariest 5 minutes I've ever experienced.

[/ QUOTE ]
the first five or so times this happened it freaked me out (panic attacks, etc) but it hasn't happened much since. I usually wake myself up when it happens because it feels awful, but most people I know just go back to sleep.

as for ghosts, I've never seen one or felt that I'm in the presence of one, but I know some people who claim to. one family that I'm close to all have the "sixth sense", where they see ghosts and agree on the characteristics of what they see. it'd normally be pretty easy to dismiss them, but (1) I trust them not to play games like that and (2) they don't make a big deal about it. I overhear conversations like "did you see him this morning?" "yeah, he was behind the shed." "he's been hanging out a lot there lately. pass the salt."

I can't believe in ghosts the way some do but I can't believe that nothing supernatural exists either. if the supernatural does exist, it seems unlikely that it would behave according to the assumptions that lots of people make, or that the explanations they offer are sufficient. ie that each ghost is actually a deceased person. or that the ghosts are hovering in purgatory. these guesses are probably incredible long-shots. but it's possible that to deny the existence of ghosts is a long shot too.

Philo

05-13-2007, 06:38 PM

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Isn't it weird that you never see a black ghost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone knows that you can never see a black ghost because ghosts only come out at night.

arahant

05-13-2007, 11:38 PM

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I usually test the theory by walking through a wall. If I can do it I know I'm dreaming. Then the fun really starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that kind of unpleasant if you really are awake?

goodgrief

05-14-2007, 12:08 AM

I don't know about that poster but in my experience when I'm awake I can't walk through the wall. It lets me know at a touch that it ain't gonna happen, no unpleasantness required. It's when I'm dreaming that walking through the wall can be rather unpleasant -- often a bit like walking through something vaguely resistant. When I was younger, I used to fly off the side of buildings to see if I was dreaming, which probably means that I was fairly confident in my ability to tell whether or not I was awake. I had a very profound experience a few years ago which to me is as real as anything that ever happened to me, but which in fact must have been a hallucination, so I don't fly off buildings any more unless I'm already CERTAIN I'm dreaming. Often I test this by seeing if I can float through the window, while it is still closed, and if I can, it's safe to go flying because I must be in an astral or dream body or what have you or I'd just bump my nose on the glass.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually test the theory by walking through a wall. If I can do it I know I'm dreaming. Then the fun really starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that kind of unpleasant if you really are awake?

[/ QUOTE ]

PairTheBoard

05-14-2007, 12:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually test the theory by walking through a wall. If I can do it I know I'm dreaming. Then the fun really starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that kind of unpleasant if you really are awake?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. I've never tried it when I actually was awake. So far.

PairTheBoard

yukoncpa

05-14-2007, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually test the theory by walking through a wall. If I can do it I know I'm dreaming. Then the fun really starts.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that kind of unpleasant if you really are awake?[ QUOTE ]

lol. I've never tried it when I actually was awake. So far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you must know when you are awake. If I'm uncertain, I just pick up a few books. If they are filled with nothing but illustrations, then I am dreaming. ( Lately, this hasn't worked as well, since I'm beginning to fill in pages with paragraphs, but the paragraphs are nonsensical if I'm dreaming)

edit- Somehow, I managed to get what I wrote, to show up in the quotes. I'm too lazy to figure out how to fix it

arahant

05-14-2007, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually test the theory by walking through a wall. If I can do it I know I'm dreaming. Then the fun really starts.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that kind of unpleasant if you really are awake?[ QUOTE ]

lol. I've never tried it when I actually was awake. So far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you must know when you are awake. If I'm uncertain, I just pick up a few books. If they are filled with nothing but illustrations, then I am dreaming. ( Lately, this hasn't worked as well, since I'm beginning to fill in pages with paragraphs, but the paragraphs are nonsensical if I'm dreaming)

edit- Somehow, I managed to get what I wrote, to show up in the quotes. I'm too lazy to figure out how to fix it

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. The details in this thread are really surprising to me. I've never had these kind of dreams, despite having some quite realistic ones.

vhawk01

05-14-2007, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually test the theory by walking through a wall. If I can do it I know I'm dreaming. Then the fun really starts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't that kind of unpleasant if you really are awake?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. I've never tried it when I actually was awake. So far.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you must know when you are awake. If I'm uncertain, I just pick up a few books. If they are filled with nothing but illustrations, then I am dreaming. ( Lately, this hasn't worked as well, since I'm beginning to fill in pages with paragraphs, but the paragraphs are nonsensical if I'm dreaming)

edit- Somehow, I managed to get what I wrote, to show up in the quotes. I'm too lazy to figure out how to fix it

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. The details in this thread are really surprising to me. I've never had these kind of dreams, despite having some quite realistic ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHY WONT ANYONE TELL ME WHAT A GHOST IS?!?! There may or may not be one in my closet, really need you guys to be quick on this one.

EDIT: Also, finally fixed this messed up quoting thing.

Metric

05-14-2007, 05:30 AM

Yeah, I've had the sleep paralysis thing maybe a dozen times. Never lasted anywhere near 5 minutes though -- more like 15 seconds. Typically only happens when I'm stressed out for some unrelated reason. The first few times it was quite terrifying and I did see two ghostly red "blobs" in the room with me which I in my dreamlike state interpreted as "aliens" but immediately chalked up to some [censored] (but bizarrely fascinating) brain chemistry upon waking. The last few times it has happened it has been quite mild -- there's an irrational sense of distress and immobilization, but a kind of "oh, just this again" realization kicks in and sort of short-circuits the process and I go right back to sleep.

As for ghosts, meh.

Metric

05-14-2007, 05:42 AM

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[ QUOTE ]

It's not fun. I'm not exaggerating when I said it was the scariest 5 minutes I've ever experienced.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to get it somewhat often also. Sometimes it would be AWFUL. Other times, it wasn't so bad. I know a girl who gets it and she lucidly sees and feels demons pulling out her finger nails and torturing her.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, that would really be miserable. The first few times it happened to me it happened something like 3 nights in a row -- by the 4th night I really wasn't looking forward to sleep at all, knowing I'd probably wake up in a state of bizarre terror.

cambraceres

05-15-2007, 03:56 AM

I've encountered several absolutely unmistakable specters when living in my parents' house as a child. My great uncle and I both have seen the same little girl playing in the same general location in the house. It's giving me chills to recall her now, but at the time I was not particularly shaken. I don't care to attempt to find out what happened or why she is around, I am irreligious, and unlike others do not see my enconters with ghosts as something that should change that.

Cam

Edit: Parents house was about 80-100 years old, multiple deaths of many configurations occured inside.

Woolygimp

05-15-2007, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've encountered several absolutely unmistakable specters when living in my parents' house as a child. My great uncle and I both have seen the same little girl playing in the same general location in the house. It's giving me chills to recall her now, but at the time I was not particularly shaken. I don't care to attempt to find out what happened or why she is around, I am irreligious, and unlike others do not see my enconters with ghosts as something that should change that.

Cam

Edit: Parents house was about 80-100 years old, multiple deaths of many configurations occured inside.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people who are too quick to deny the existence of something are far too close-minded by nature. The universe is massive, complex, and as a species we are both primitive and as a person we are very young and insignificant.

Maybe there's a perfectly rational explanation for the phenomena, but to discount the millions of personal testimonies is lunacy.

vhawk01

05-15-2007, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've encountered several absolutely unmistakable specters when living in my parents' house as a child. My great uncle and I both have seen the same little girl playing in the same general location in the house. It's giving me chills to recall her now, but at the time I was not particularly shaken. I don't care to attempt to find out what happened or why she is around, I am irreligious, and unlike others do not see my enconters with ghosts as something that should change that.

Cam

Edit: Parents house was about 80-100 years old, multiple deaths of many configurations occured inside.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people who are too quick to deny the existence of something are far too close-minded by nature. The universe is massive, complex, and as a species we are both primitive and as a person we are very young and insignificant.

Maybe there's a perfectly rational explanation for the phenomena, but to discount the millions of personal testimonies is lunacy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dismissing millions of personal testimonies isn't lunacy, its a tried-and-true method of finding truth.

Woolygimp

05-15-2007, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've encountered several absolutely unmistakable specters when living in my parents' house as a child. My great uncle and I both have seen the same little girl playing in the same general location in the house. It's giving me chills to recall her now, but at the time I was not particularly shaken. I don't care to attempt to find out what happened or why she is around, I am irreligious, and unlike others do not see my enconters with ghosts as something that should change that.

Cam

Edit: Parents house was about 80-100 years old, multiple deaths of many configurations occured inside.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people who are too quick to deny the existence of something are far too close-minded by nature. The universe is massive, complex, and as a species we are both primitive and as a person we are very young and insignificant.

Maybe there's a perfectly rational explanation for the phenomena, but to discount the millions of personal testimonies is lunacy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dismissing millions of personal testimonies isn't lunacy, its a tried-and-true method of finding truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Define truth? Most of the archived records of human history are based on handful of sources: Eunapus, Herodatus, Livy, Plutarch, Tacitus.

We have absolutely no way of corroborating classical historical records, and in the same way we are relying on the personal testimony of these individuals.

Assuming you are living several hundred years ago, and then a ship returns saying that there was an undiscovered continent across the Atlantic. Based on your (limited) views at the time you would probably discount his testimony without much thought.

Like I said, the universe is incredibly complex and to discount something altogether just because current scientific theories don't offer a reasonable explanation is ignorance. Do I believe in ghosts? I don't know.

I do recognize the possibility that something of that nature might exist, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a 'spirit' of a dead person but could be any number of things.

Do some google searches, there are plenty of skeptics who have had 'experiences' which have changed their opinions, including several scientists.

vhawk01

05-15-2007, 03:56 PM

Using sparse examples of times when "everyone would have thought you were crazy but it turns out you were correct" doesn't do much to help your cause. What % of the times when "everyone would have thought you were crazy" were you actually crazy/wrong? 99%? 99.99%?

Either way, the reason I'm ok accepting Plutarch's account of history is because a) it doesn't go against the well-established laws of physics as we understand them and b) I don't really care that much. It doesn't impact my life in any significant way, and little is riding on the fact that Plutarch MUST have been correct. If this was more pivotal, we'd be less inclined to just believe him.

Lestat

05-15-2007, 04:06 PM

More interesting would be whether the responders who do believe in ghosts are also religious. My guess is that would be true.

JussiUt

05-15-2007, 04:24 PM

Human mind is so freaking mysterious and complex that I'm not suprised at all that some people think they saw ghosts etc. There are definately things in the world we don't know but it'd be very unlikely that things like "I saw a girl play a piano and then she disapperead" or "I woke up one morning and I saw a demon next to my bed and my friend told me he saw me levitate" are true. They sound so much like things of our imagination, things from popular culture and movies. If there indeed is something that we would consider "paranormal" in the world it's very likely it isn't anything like zombies etc. It'll be some weird physics etc. to which we react bizarrely.

Woolygimp

05-15-2007, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Human mind is so freaking mysterious and complex that I'm not suprised at all that some people think they saw ghosts etc. There are definately things in the world we don't know but it'd be very unlikely that things like "I saw a girl play a piano and then she disapperead" or "I woke up one morning and I saw a demon next to my bed and my friend told me he saw me levitate" are true. They sound so much like things of our imagination, things from popular culture and movies. If there indeed is something that we would consider "paranormal" in the world it's very likely it isn't anything like zombies etc. It'll be some weird physics etc. to which we react bizarrely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Human mind being complex and mysterious?
The universe is infinitely more complex and mysterious.

vhawk01

05-15-2007, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Human mind is so freaking mysterious and complex that I'm not suprised at all that some people think they saw ghosts etc. There are definately things in the world we don't know but it'd be very unlikely that things like "I saw a girl play a piano and then she disapperead" or "I woke up one morning and I saw a demon next to my bed and my friend told me he saw me levitate" are true. They sound so much like things of our imagination, things from popular culture and movies. If there indeed is something that we would consider "paranormal" in the world it's very likely it isn't anything like zombies etc. It'll be some weird physics etc. to which we react bizarrely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Human mind being complex and mysterious?
The universe is infinitely more complex and mysterious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Infinitely? How'd you calculate that?

Woolygimp

05-15-2007, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Human mind is so freaking mysterious and complex that I'm not suprised at all that some people think they saw ghosts etc. There are definately things in the world we don't know but it'd be very unlikely that things like "I saw a girl play a piano and then she disapperead" or "I woke up one morning and I saw a demon next to my bed and my friend told me he saw me levitate" are true. They sound so much like things of our imagination, things from popular culture and movies. If there indeed is something that we would consider "paranormal" in the world it's very likely it isn't anything like zombies etc. It'll be some weird physics etc. to which we react bizarrely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Human mind being complex and mysterious?
The universe is infinitely more complex and mysterious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Infinitely? How'd you calculate that?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what makes you a jackass. You dodge a post by finding fault in semantics, and what you just said doesn't further this discussion in the slightest.

That, or you really believe the human mind is as complex as the universe and are dumber than I originally believed.

vhawk01

05-15-2007, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Human mind is so freaking mysterious and complex that I'm not suprised at all that some people think they saw ghosts etc. There are definately things in the world we don't know but it'd be very unlikely that things like "I saw a girl play a piano and then she disapperead" or "I woke up one morning and I saw a demon next to my bed and my friend told me he saw me levitate" are true. They sound so much like things of our imagination, things from popular culture and movies. If there indeed is something that we would consider "paranormal" in the world it's very likely it isn't anything like zombies etc. It'll be some weird physics etc. to which we react bizarrely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Human mind being complex and mysterious?
The universe is infinitely more complex and mysterious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Infinitely? How'd you calculate that?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what makes you a jackass. You dodge a post by finding fault in semantics, and what you just said doesn't further this discussion in the slightest.

That, or you really believe the human mind is as complex as the universe and are dumber than I originally believed.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I believe it is very complex, and was taking issue with your dismissive attitude about it. You seem to think you just win arguments by assertion. The previous poster had a valid point: Human beings are complex and are capable of great feats of self-deception, among other things. Your response to this? Some ridiculous hyperbole that doesn't 'further discussion in the slightest.'

Lestat

05-15-2007, 06:17 PM

Lestat

05-15-2007, 06:21 PM

No, I believe it is very complex, 

Are you guys sure about this? I'm certainly not an expert, but from what I've read the universe really seems to be rather simple. Sure there are phsyics stuff that is difficult for laymen to understand, but the overall laws governing the universe (I think), are fairly straightforward and simple. In fact, I thought I heard or read somewhere that they are much more simple than one would expect. At least this seems to be the case for big things. Quantum mechanics may be a whole different story.

Nevertheless, there is little doubt that the human brain is magnificantly complicated.

vhawk01

05-15-2007, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, I believe it is very complex, 

Are you guys sure about this? I'm certainly not an expert, but from what I've read the universe really seems to be rather simple. Sure there are phsyics stuff that is difficult for laymen to understand, but the overall laws governing the universe (I think), are fairly straightforward and simple. In fact, I thought I heard or read somewhere that they are much more simple than one would expect. At least this seems to be the case for big things. Quantum mechanics may be a whole different story.

Nevertheless, there is little doubt that the human brain is magnificantly complicated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking about the human mind.

Lestat

05-15-2007, 08:53 PM

RJT

05-15-2007, 10:41 PM

vhawk01

05-15-2007, 10:45 PM

Lestat

05-15-2007, 11:17 PM

Maybe I misunderstood you. What I'm saying first and foremost is that the brain IS the mind, and I hope you would agree.

Secondly, I'm saying that I don't think we've ever discovered anything more complicated than the human brain. Either on this planet or outside of it. It doesn't have to remain that way, but for now, I'm pretty sure that's a true statement.

vhawk01

05-15-2007, 11:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I misunderstood you. What I'm saying first and foremost is that the brain IS the mind, and I hope you would agree.

Secondly, I'm saying that I don't think we've ever discovered anything more complicated than the human brain. Either on this planet or outside of it. It doesn't have to remain that way, but for now, I'm pretty sure that's a true statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed with the first, I have no idea about the second. I don't know exactly how you'd measure complexity (minimium number of words to completely describe?) and so I don't know if its the MOST complicated. Thats all I was trying to say, to give a disclaimer that I am not claiming the mind is the MOST complicated thing, merely that it is very complicated, and certainly complicated enough to invent ghosts.

Lestat

05-16-2007, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I believe it is very complex, 

Are you guys sure about this? I'm certainly not an expert, but from what I've read the universe really seems to be rather simple. Sure there are phsyics stuff that is difficult for laymen to understand, but the overall laws governing the universe (I think), are fairly straightforward and simple. In fact, I thought I heard or read somewhere that they are much more simple than one would expect. At least this seems to be the case for big things. Quantum mechanics may be a whole different story.

Nevertheless, there is little doubt that the human brain is magnificantly complicated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think this true too, Stat. But, like you ( well, I should say - even "moreso" than you) I have no clue on this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's a sure thing that we know of nothing more intelligent in the universe than the human brain, and that's why I debate with DS (although not too hard), when he goes off about the importance of what the most intelligent people have to say about God Vs. those who are not as intelligent. My question is, as opposed to what? Even the least intelligent humans are lightyears smarter than any other thing in the known universe! In other words, the disparity between smart people and dumb people is much less than the disparity between dumb people and the next intelligent animal we know of. So is it really that big a deal if intelligent people disagree with less intelligent people about something like God? I don't see it.

Woolygimp

05-16-2007, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I believe it is very complex, 

Are you guys sure about this? I'm certainly not an expert, but from what I've read the universe really seems to be rather simple. Sure there are phsyics stuff that is difficult for laymen to understand, but the overall laws governing the universe (I think), are fairly straightforward and simple. In fact, I thought I heard or read somewhere that they are much more simple than one would expect. At least this seems to be the case for big things. Quantum mechanics may be a whole different story.

Nevertheless, there is little doubt that the human brain is magnificantly complicated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think this true too, Stat. But, like you ( well, I should say - even "moreso" than you) I have no clue on this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's a sure thing that we know of nothing more intelligent in the universe than the human brain, and that's why I debate with DS (although not too hard), when he goes off about the importance of what the most intelligent people have to say about God Vs. those who are not as intelligent. My question is, as opposed to what? Even the least intelligent humans are lightyears smarter than any other thing in the known universe! In other words, the disparity between smart people and dumb people is much less than the disparity between dumb people and the next intelligent animal we know of. So is it really that big a deal if intelligent people disagree with less intelligent people about something like God? I don't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The human mind is but one of an incalculable amount of criteria in which our universe consists of. Think about it, the universe encompasses all.

No matter how advanced a car's cam shaft is, you can't say that camshaft is more complex than the car that it is a part of.

We have a very, very limited grasp of the universe and most of it consists of theorems that are little more than conjecture at this point.

Watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4237751840526284618&q=double+slit+experiment

I think it's fair to say that our grasp of the human brain is fairly advanced. We know how it works, we know the chemicals (Melatonin, Seratonin, Hydrocortisone) that run it. We know the parts of the blood ( Neutrophils, Lymphocytes, Monocytes, Eosinophils, Basophils ) which allow it's operations. We know which parts of the brain are responsible for certain processes, and we know how to inhibit or alter such with drugs and medications.

Vhawk, You can't dismiss these experiences as mis-perceptions of the human mind. I've been fishing all my life, and I've never mis-perceived a fish jump out of the water and bite me on the ass. I've never mis-perceived catching a 384' whale on 2lb test line.

There are also multiple cases of someone experiencing something, only to have their story corroborated later when they had no knowledge of it in advance. I've got two personal stories involving situations as this.

...and Lestat, stop being stupid. The human brain is amazing, complex, and mysterious but it doesn't hold a candle to some of the other stuff out there.

vhawk01

05-16-2007, 02:09 AM

Yes, I can easily dismiss these as misperceptions. Are you serious? I may be wrong, and I may not want to in this case (I do) but I have loads and loads of precedent on my side. Look at optical illusions. Look at memory experiments. People pass lie detectors swearing a green car was blue. The human mind is designed to assign agency to anything, as a catch-all against threats. So, a sheet becomes a ghost, a creak becomes a moan, and a slamming window becomes an angry poltergeist.

But then, the burden isn't on me anyhow.

cambraceres

05-16-2007, 03:58 AM

The preceeding conversation was pretty funny, but anyways, I doubt my perceptions were due to some sort of long term hallucination. These experiences can also not be contributed to confabulation. I have seen the likenesses of people milling around my house, a secure estate, and furthermore I have seen them in the same dress and manner as others who have stayed in the house. This house was torn down in 2002, was a 19 room, one floor house, and had a long history of unfortunate deaths within it's walls.

I am an absolutely sane individual, I am also irreligious due to having a mind and regarding it properly. There is no time in my life where I have been prone to improperly apprehending reality. Some of my experiences did occur at night, and a few directly after awakening. I understand people can still be in a dream state, but how about 5+ people, unmistakably seeing and hearing, in midday, what I can only refer to as a ghost? This also has happened at my house more than once, and a mansion about 6 miles away is much older and displays the same characteristics. Note as well, after my childhood home was torn down, the experiences totally ceased.

Most of the people in the valley I live in do believe in ghosts, and almost all are religious. I have no need for the religion mess, but I simply cannot discount first-hand corraborated experiences because they don't make "sense".

Cam

Lestat

05-16-2007, 04:02 AM

Thanks for that link gimp. That's some pretty cool stuff!

It's also why I said with the exception of quantum mechanics.

vhawk01

05-16-2007, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The preceeding conversation was pretty funny, but anyways, I doubt my perceptions were due to some sort of long term hallucination. These experiences can also not be contributed to confabulation. I have seen the likenesses of people milling around my house, a secure estate, and furthermore I have seen them in the same dress and manner as others who have stayed in the house. This house was torn down in 2002, was a 19 room, one floor house, and had a long history of unfortunate deaths within it's walls.

I am an absolutely sane individual, I am also irreligious due to having a mind and regarding it properly. There is no time in my life where I have been prone to improperly apprehending reality. Some of my experiences did occur at night, and a few directly after awakening. I understand people can still be in a dream state, but how about 5+ people, unmistakably seeing and hearing, in midday, what I can only refer to as a ghost? This also has happened at my house more than once, and a mansion about 6 miles away is much older and displays the same characteristics. Note as well, after my childhood home was torn down, the experiences totally ceased.

Most of the people in the valley I live in do believe in ghosts, and almost all are religious. I have no need for the religion mess, but I simply cannot discount first-hand corraborated experiences because they don't make "sense".

Cam

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I'm fine with this being convincing to you. I hope you understand why it isn't convincing to me? Clearly, the greater miracle here is ghosts, and not you being wrong/lying about your experience with ghosts.

I think you are unfairly characterizing what I'm saying, though. I'm not claiming you are hallucinating or confabulating. I'm simply observing that human beings assign agency to things, and they do so fairly indiscriminately. They are also highly suggestive. They also rewrite their memories at will, with little concern for reality. Add all these together, and it doesn't take "crazy hallucinations" or "fantastic lies" to get to ghost stories.

JussiUt

05-16-2007, 04:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That, or you really believe the human mind is as complex as the universe and are dumber than I originally believed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm glad that others have backed me up on this. We know very little how the brain works, how our conciousness is created etc. It's like a computer. The universe on the other hand is vast but its basic explonations are all rather simple because by definition "basic explonations" have to be basic and simple. We know the basic laws of physics in Earth, we don't know the basic laws of human brains.

I'm not saying that the universe is simple, far from it, but that was not even my point. My whole point was that when considering ghosts etc. I believe it's much more likely that those visions etc. are manufactured by the brain which there is some evidence of it doing compared to there actually being ghosts regardless of our conciousness. Again, if there are some unknown forces in the world (which there has to be, science isn't over yet) I'm pretty sure it isn't anything human-like. Our imagination creates human-like visions but the universe certainly didn't have us in mind when it was born.

cambraceres

05-16-2007, 06:08 AM

Vhawk, I understand why this is not convincing to you, because it doesn't make sense and you don't know me from Adam. It certainly has been shown that humans have fantastic abilities of "creative recollection"(you like it, I just thought it up!), however, the fallible sensibilities of others are of little concern to me in this case, either I am crazy or I have seen the orthodox characterization of a ghost.

It seems to me I am not mischaracterizing your statements. You do assert that through some mechanism or another the perceptions thta I had, irrespective of those of others, were incorrect. Whether it be through innocent error or direct subversion, your contention is that I have in some fashion misrepresented reality. I realize we are going to settle nothing today, but I just want to present something not often seen, an adamant, irreligious believer in something that is seen as supernatural.

Here at work we are having a perfectly blissful debate on the first cause argument. I just presented a religious coworker, a student at Fallwell's college, a copy of "dialogue between a priest and a dying man" from Marquis de Sade.

Cam

Lestat

05-16-2007, 12:03 PM

, your contention is that I have in some fashion misrepresented reality. 

No one is contending that you misrepresented what you perceived. I'm sure you're being 100% forthright about that. I would however, contend that your brain has misrepresented reality to you.

I know what you mean... I had an aunt and cousin who swore they had a ghost living in their house! Once, I was visiting them when I was a little kid and a door slammed for no reason! There was no window open, no draft, etc. They calmly said it was the ghost. Things like that happened all the time. Of course, I didn't believe it and went to investigate. I never did find out what made that door slam. But if I lived there, I'd have made it my life's mission to find out what was causing those things to happen.

You describe yourself as irreligious, but I wonder if it's a coincidence that you stop short of claiming agnosticism or atheism. This tells me you still might entertain the idea for the existence of things outside of observable evidence.

PairTheBoard

05-16-2007, 02:38 PM

I find your account rather compelling cambraceres. Do you have any theories to explain what is going on?

PairTheBoard

vhawk01

05-16-2007, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Vhawk, I understand why this is not convincing to you, because it doesn't make sense and you don't know me from Adam. It certainly has been shown that humans have fantastic abilities of "creative recollection"(you like it, I just thought it up!), however, the fallible sensibilities of others are of little concern to me in this case, either I am crazy or I have seen the orthodox characterization of a ghost.

It seems to me I am not mischaracterizing your statements. You do assert that through some mechanism or another the perceptions thta I had, irrespective of those of others, were incorrect. Whether it be through innocent error or direct subversion, your contention is that I have in some fashion misrepresented reality. I realize we are going to settle nothing today, but I just want to present something not often seen, an adamant, irreligious believer in something that is seen as supernatural.

Here at work we are having a perfectly blissful debate on the first cause argument. I just presented a religious coworker, a student at Fallwell's college, a copy of "dialogue between a priest and a dying man" from Marquis de Sade.

Cam

[/ QUOTE ]

Fully understood. We went over this a while ago when Borodog performed his miracle. I understand your experience is convincing to you, and I daresay it would be convincing to me as well, or at least it might, depending on the exact quality. But for me, it is just another data point. It is unusual, for the completely irreligious to have a ghost experience, and don't think I discount it ENTIRELY. I don't. I add it to the pile. Unfortunately, I'm still coming down on the side of no ghosts. I have no reason to call you a liar or a fool, though, and I hope you don't take it that way. If we switched places, I imagine this conversation would go very much the same way.

cambraceres

05-17-2007, 04:25 AM

In this situation, I cannot claim to know what is happening, or what did happen for my period of residence in that house. I have went over what happened, both in my own mind and with the attentions of others. My recollected experiences put me in such an uncomfortable situation in both types of inquiry as to frustrate the process nearly to futility.
I do, as a matter of course, need to deal with the things I apprehend in a cognitive sense. I do file them away like anyone else in the prosaic travel through my day.

Someone asked if I had any theories concerning these bizzarre events. I deal with it as follows. I do not know what happens to those who die, as my solitary awareness is of the empty places and feelings they leave.
I do not concede the ability of living people to converse with the dead, nor do I concede the ability of the dead to communicate at all for a reason which should be obvious. This said, and with no reliable information of any type concerning anything other then the lifeless corpse of the dead, I assert that our knowledge ends where death begins. If I have nothing to go on, I will not simply compose a narrative to calm my mind. We have minds which predicate us toward inquiry into matters which we have no power to resolve. Given no information, christianity is not the logical answer. And the information we have been given by our ancestors is of mercurial veracity at best. The information my ancestors have given me about what they themselves had no idea about is of no worth whatever.
Rejecting religion as such, my conception of these specters is that they may or may not be the "souls" of the dead. Again, no information exists of a reliable nature about this.
I have to go deal with issues of employment.

Vaya con Dios

cambraceres

05-18-2007, 03:57 AM

My apologies for having to cut off my response; my job is like holding a tiger by it's ears and affords me not even a small fraction of time without something going awry somewhere.

As I was saying, since our knowledge of what happens to the dead is about nil, nothing should in turn be said about it, other than the bare acknowledgment of it's enigmatic nature.

There is only one thing in the entire situation that still somewhat bugs me. That is the fact that the events totally ceased when the house was torn down. I cannot say for sure that whatever was happening was linked to the house, but it seemed evident. If it did have something to do with the house, that establishes an objective point of analysis. At that point, our information is no longer at zero. We would then be able to surmise something of the nature of the happenings. Since we have total knowledge of the houses we contsruct and inhabit, we COULD understand something of what was hapening. I am not convinced that the house itself was a factor of the venets themselves. I'm honestly somewhat suprised at the number of people who have no knowledge of these experiences.

Maybe it's just all the lead paint, but there are a couple of places I would love to take an adamant non-believer. These things don't have to shake your conception of the world if they are accepted as natural. They are beyond our powers of comprehension, as enigmatic as existence itself, so why can we not consider it to be a natural effect of natural processes. I am no longer allowed by my own nature to harbor any doubt about the reality of the phenomena, only to question; and in VALID terms.

Cam

PairTheBoard

05-18-2007, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They are beyond our powers of comprehension, as enigmatic as existence itself, so why can we not consider it to be a natural effect of natural processes. I am no longer allowed by my own nature to harbor any doubt about the reality of the phenomena, only to question; and in VALID terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess you don't buy the argument that according to some mathematics of God this increases the "likelihood" that God exists?

PairTheBoard

cambraceres

05-18-2007, 05:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess you don't buy the argument that according to some mathematics of God this increases the "likelihood" that God exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you examine and rephrase this?

It is not quite intelligible.

Cam

yukoncpa

05-18-2007, 06:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They are beyond our powers of comprehension, as enigmatic as existence itself, so why can we not consider it to be a natural effect of natural processes. I am no longer allowed by my own nature to harbor any doubt about the reality of the phenomena, only to question; and in VALID terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess you don't buy the argument that according to some mathematics of God this increases the "likelihood" that God exists?

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

If the God concept is a subset of all supernatural occurrences and if ghosts are also a subset, then given ghost’s exist doesn’t mean that the sets of ghosts and God overlap each other, the two could be mutually exclusive. But since you’re talking about probabilities, since both of these sets belong inside the universal set of the supernatural, I guess there must be an increased probability that the two overlap (unless the one concept automatically excludes the other). However, even if it were proven that ghosts exist, the Christian God idea is still so incredibly unlikely that it’s probability would only be increased minutely.

But this still doesn’t make sense to me. If ghosts were proven, then wouldn’t they be explained and therefore no longer supernatural? Thus excluded from the BS set of supernatural occurrences

cambraceres

05-18-2007, 08:50 AM

I was vastly overthinking your "unintelliglible " quote, but I see now.

If the existence of Ghosts was proved, then it would depend on their nature, or what we knew of their nature, as to whether or not they are suggestive of a God. It is not valid to consider the concept of God as Pascal did. A meausre of probability is inapplicable to a system that is all inclusive. To qualify: a Christian god would be an all inclusive system; that is, the "Alpha and Omega", therefore, this god would be at once the total explanation of existence and the obviating element with regard to inquiry into this concept. This would make it a matter of possiblity, not probability. Probability is only valid as a term when it is used comparatively.

But we must think, if the phenomena of ghosts were proved, that does not in itself suggest that they would be explained. One can verify the existence of something without explaining it's existence in total. If we were to be able to prove and explain them, then there would be a valid basis for extrapolation. If ghosts were explained to be just as the christians say, this would then be evidence.

Thanks for ringing in Yukon.

Cam

cambraceres

05-18-2007, 08:52 AM

Before I offend some of the more intellectually aware here, allow me to say that UI hold a deep respect for Pascal's thought. I believe his conception of the universe is the best ever composed. He said the universe is " A sphere, with a centre everywhere and a circumference nowhere."

I know it isn't consistent, but I like it.

Cam

Justin A

05-18-2007, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

There is only one thing in the entire situation that still somewhat bugs me. That is the fact that the events totally ceased when the house was torn down. I cannot say for sure that whatever was happening was linked to the house, but it seemed evident. If it did have something to do with the house, that establishes an objective point of analysis. At that point, our information is no longer at zero. We would then be able to surmise something of the nature of the happenings. Since we have total knowledge of the houses we contsruct and inhabit, we COULD understand something of what was hapening. I am not convinced that the house itself was a factor of the venets themselves. I'm honestly somewhat suprised at the number of people who have no knowledge of these experiences.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes it seem much more likely that your brain was playing tricks on you.

PairTheBoard

05-18-2007, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess you don't buy the argument that according to some mathematics of God this increases the "likelihood" that God exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you examine and rephrase this?

It is not quite intelligible.

Cam

[/ QUOTE ]

This is part of the argument Sklansky is promoting on other threads in this Forum. Probably best if you read what he says about it rather than my representation of it. I disagree with it, as it looks to me you would. I like your use of the phrase, "Valid Terms". I do not consider "likelihood that God exists" to be valid terms for a scientific discussion. I suspect you would agree.

In my view, any talk of God is a religious discussion. Sklansky thinks he can bring concepts of mathematics into such a religious discussion and expect people to grant his arguments authority based on the authority of mathematics. I disagee. Applying math terms in a religious discussion is pseudo-math and pseudo-science.

PairTheBoard

PairTheBoard

05-18-2007, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If the God concept is a subset of all supernatural occurrences and if ghosts are also a subset, then given ghost’s exist doesn’t mean that the sets of ghosts and God overlap each other, the two could be mutually exclusive. But since you’re talking about probabilities, since both of these sets belong inside the universal set of the supernatural, I guess there must be an increased probability that the two overlap (unless the one concept automatically excludes the other). However, even if it were proven that ghosts exist, the Christian God idea is still so incredibly unlikely that it’s probability would only be increased minutely.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If the God concept is a subset of all supernatural occurrences

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unworkably vague to begin with. There is no way to adequately define "supernatural". The most profound concepts of God may be entirely disjoint from any definition of "supernatural" you might attempt.

But even if we assume your words are meaningful, there is no way of determining the correct Probability Measure on the Space of "supernatural" events in your conjecture. In fact, the correct Measure for that Space might not even be a Probability Measure. In fact, the Space might not even be Measurable.

These kinds of observations are obvious to someone who has actually studied the mathematics of probabilty. I doubt Sklansky has ever bothered to do a deep study himself. This is also why he is able to fool people with his sophistry. Most people don't have the expertise to see through it.

PairTheBoard

PairTheBoard

05-18-2007, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To qualify: a Christian god would be an all inclusive system; that is, the "Alpha and Omega", therefore, this god would be at once the total explanation of existence and the obviating element with regard to inquiry into this concept. This would make it a matter of possiblity, not probability. Probability is only valid as a term when it is used comparatively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

PairTheBoard

Neuge

05-18-2007, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's just all the lead paint, but there are a couple of places I would love to take an adamant non-believer. These things don't have to shake your conception of the world if they are accepted as natural. They are beyond our powers of comprehension, as enigmatic as existence itself, so why can we not consider it to be a natural effect of natural processes. I am no longer allowed by my own nature to harbor any doubt about the reality of the phenomena, only to question; and in VALID terms.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would likely still highly doubt any of this phenomena. I went to college in a town featured on the short-lived FOX series "Scariest Place on Earth". There are various tales about the local cemeteries forming a pentagram, girls committing suicide and haunting dorms, and wild tales about the abandoned insane asylum, an imposing building that sat high upon a hill over looking the town. In my time there I lived in the most famously "haunted" dorm, next to one of the cemeteries, and often worked in the insane asylum. None of that ever gave me the slightest inclination to even consider ghosts or paranormal activity.

yukoncpa

05-18-2007, 03:03 PM

Ok, PTB
Thanks for the clarification, I understand what you are saying. In other words, the God concept and Ghosts, might be empty sets; If not, one or both sets might exist outside of the Universal set of the Supernatural; and the Universal set of the Supernatural is an overly vague and poorly defined set to begin with. Further more, the supernatural may be disjoint from God. And Ghosts and God may or may not correlate with each other unless more information is given.
Do I have things about right, or did I muddle it further?

The only reason I made my first post, is that I was trying to make heads or tails of this quote by you:

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess you don't buy the argument that according to some mathematics of God this increases the "likelihood" that God exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which on my first reading, I misunderstood you to mean that you agreed with the quote. So I was trying to figure out why you would agree with it.

PairTheBoard

05-18-2007, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, PTB
Thanks for the clarification, I understand what you are saying. In other words, the God concept and Ghosts, might be empty sets; If not, one or both sets might exist outside of the Universal set of the Supernatural; and the Universal set of the Supernatural is an overly vague and poorly defined set to begin with. Further more, the supernatural may be disjoint from God. And Ghosts and God may or may not correlate with each other unless more information is given.
Do I have things about right, or did I muddle it further?

The only reason I made my first post, is that I was trying to make heads or tails of this quote by you:

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess you don't buy the argument that according to some mathematics of God this increases the "likelihood" that God exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which on my first reading, I misunderstood you to mean that you agreed with the quote. So I was trying to figure out why you would agree with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably why Sklansky said I was the most confusing poster around here. I've also jumped into a couple of his threads to give NotReady's view without making it clear that's what I was doing.

I wasn't really even disagreeing with the jist of your post. You were coming to similiar conclusions. I was really elaborating on how the foundational difficulties were even greater than what you observed. After posting I thought of an even greater foundational difficulty. This ill defined "set of supernatural events" might not even qualify as a mathematical "Set" once we got down to a more precise definition of it. It might be more akin to a mathematical Class, or Category. Probabilty theory is limited to Sets on which a proper measure space can be defined. Categories are not even part of that discussion.

The thing is, what supernatural events would you even be talking about in an attempt to construct a probability model? Those supernatural events that actually exist? Or all supernatural events that could possibly exist in all possible universes? It just doesn't make sense.

PairTheBoard

arahant

05-18-2007, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, the disparity between smart people and dumb people is much less than the disparity between dumb people and the next intelligent animal we know of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure how you quantify that. I mean, if we just make some sort of iq test, I'm sure we could design one where monkeys score 10, dumb people 70, smart people 140... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's important to realize that the difference between my iq and the average is the same as the difference between the average and my dog /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Woolygimp

05-18-2007, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In other words, the disparity between smart people and dumb people is much less than the disparity between dumb people and the next intelligent animal we know of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure how you quantify that. I mean, if we just make some sort of iq test, I'm sure we could design one where monkeys score 10, dumb people 70, smart people 140... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's important to realize that the difference between my iq and the average is the same as the difference between the average and my dog /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

IQ was a test meant to measure human intelligence, and encompasses a relatively small field portion of the intelligence field.

I'm sure both a Chimpanzee, and a Spotted Frog would score 0. It doesn't mean they are equally dumb.

arahant

05-18-2007, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Before I offend some of the more intellectually aware here, allow me to say that UI hold a deep respect for Pascal's thought. I believe his conception of the universe is the best ever composed. He said the universe is " A sphere, with a centre everywhere and a circumference nowhere."

I know it isn't consistent, but I like it.

Cam

[/ QUOTE ]

I find your experience interesting, as you don't seem like an idiot /images/graemlins/smile.gif.
My problem with all the descriptions of ghosts is that lots of people DO actually try to show their existence. Things like taking video cameras into reputedly haunted places, for example. It just seems very basic to me that the detection abilities of humans (sound waves, photons, etc.) aren't at all different from the mechanical devices we make to detect things. If there's never been a video of a ghost, but there are innumerable 'sightings', that seems to me like an indication that what is going on is purely in the heads of the observers.

Woolygimp

05-18-2007, 07:00 PM

You can find dozens of videos and pictures, but they are always the source of debate and controversy.

The most famous one is the 'Brown Lady' which has been the subject of much debate.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3481/raynhamgo3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The negative was examined and found to be authentic, and there are quite a few good pieces written about this particular photograph.

[ QUOTE ]

Captain Marryat, the famous author of Mr Midshipman Easy,was another person to sight the ghost when staying at Raynham Hall. The Captain briskly dismissed the notion of ghosts and insisted on sleeping in the haunted bedroom, which it is belived contained a portrait of the Brown Lady hersolef.

Having left the rrom to look in on some friends, when returning along the shadowy corridor when he saw a woman coming towards him. Her feet made no sound, and the lamp she was holding illuminated a figure unmistakably identical to the portrait in his room.

At this point he fired his gun at the frightening figure, but to his dismay the bullets shot right through her head and out the other side, lodging in the door behind her, at which point she vanished.

Since these early sightings many more have occured and the famous photograph of the Brown Lady has been frequently reproduced in books about ghosts and hauntings. It occured in the thirties when two photographers from Country Life magazine were taking a series of photographs of Raynham Hall. Captain Provand was photographing the staircase when his assistant, Indra Shira, suddenly noticed a misty figure approaching down the stairs. He quickly urged Captain Provand to take an exposure, which he did, although he himself had seen nothing at all! He protested that Indra Shira must have imagined it, and declared that even if there was something there, nothing would appear when the negative was developed.

But Indra Shira insisted he had seen a figure so transparent that the steps were visible through it, and later when they were developing the negatives the Captain could see that there was definitely something on the staircase.

Indra Shira hurried downstairs to the chemist below their studio and brought Benjamin Lones back to be a witness that the negative had not been tampered with. Later a number of experts examined it and were satisfied that the picture had not been faked in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even just few years ago, BBC aired a story where a figure dressed in a medieval attire appeared from a doorway on a security camera.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3336299.stm

I mean there are tons of pictures, and photographs out there. But film as a medium can be easily be dismissed for a variety of reasons how can you expect it to 'ever' prove the existence or non-existence of such?

The skeptics explanation for the above photograph is, [ QUOTE ]
Conducted by the Society for Psychical Research, it concludes that there is almost certainly a mundane explanation for the "spectral" image in the photo.
The evidence includes the discovery that the camera may have leaked light on to the photographic plate.

[/ QUOTE ]

arahant

05-18-2007, 08:03 PM

Interesting. Though I guess I should have expected they were out there /images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Cambraceres - how closely does a photograph like this match your experience? Are we talking amorphous vapors, or bodies that look essentially real, or somewhere in between?

cambraceres

05-19-2007, 04:19 AM

PTB, I ceartainly agree in a general sense with your contention that the slapdash application of mathematical conepts into theocratic inquiry is at best misguided. It is certainly posible to use them if you can define the entities you are working with. To use set theory, one must have perfectly defined sets, and so forth. So Sklansky and others who attempt this take a perfecttly good mathematical model and muck it up with garbage elements. Garbage in a mathematical sense that is.
There is one of those "Ghost walks" that happen about 20 miles from the aforementioned house. I have never been on it, but a friend said it was just a walk through Stonewall Jackson's burial place. The house I am speaking of is not located within any town, it is in a rural extremity of southwestern Virginia. It sits between the Jefferson and Washington national forests. It is so far back you have to cross the appalachain trail to get there. The area is called Rapp's Mill, although there is nothing more than a church and single road upon which a smattering of houses form a microcosmic community.
My experiences were most of the time rather mild, more in the way of familiar noises of a distinct nature. For instance you could routinely hear pots and pans, on certain nights, and at regulated times. often these sounds would be coming from a back kitchen. We had two kitchens, both neighboring one another, and a formal dining room. One of the kitchens is where several very vivid experiences occured. Once I had gotten ready for bed, and went to read until I felt tired. My mother and neighbor were also in the house, along with my sister. My sister was asleep; my mother sitting outside engaging in one of her frequent, inane and completely nonsensical musings to the delight of our neighbor. I got back up after a while, maybe 20 minutes, and set out toward our bathroom, which meant I had to walk through 7 rooms. I had to pass through both kitchens, and on the side of one Kitchen is a formal dining room with a chandelier. I can't ms paint or anything, but my sisters room was through the dining room, the bathroom on the other side of both kitchens. I turned a corner into our den, and took a few steps, then looked up to see what I at first glance thought was my sister standing in a nightgown, being lit on her right side, my left, by the chandelier in the dining room. You see, my sister's room was on the other side of the dining room, and to go to the bathroom she would have to walk directly where this little girl was standing. I took about another half step, and my eyes focused on a girl who was younger and obviously not my sister. She was dressed in a white gown, it was not transparent nor was she. She was lit up on her right side, but the light wasn't coming from anywhere, it didn't appear to be eminating from her person, although it also wasn't of a spotlight quality. She appeared to be completely real, but I could distinguish no facial features, her head was pointed downwards, as if she were looking at her feet. I am to this day proud of the way I conducted myself in this and several other instances. I turned intently and WALKED through two rooms outside to my mother and told her about it. The next day she said my Great-uncle reported the same thing, a small girl in that spot. I will admit that today it does unnerve me a bit to recall what she actually looked like. I am also unnerved a bit when I remember a gentleman I saw in the house one afternoon, in broad daylight standing in a dark suit with a wrinkled face and black hat. At the time I wasn't too shaken though, and I deal with it in ways we have already discussed.

Cam