The Logical Implications Of China's Lack Of Christianity

[David Sklansky]

Those born in China and many other countries, are much less likely to be or become Christians (and therefore have a good chance to go to heaven) than those born in America. Seems unfair. Christians will reply that anyone who is exposed at all to Christianity, has ample opportunity to embrace Jesus, and that includes the Chinese. And that is obviously true since millions of Chinese have undoubtedly become Christian.

But that STILL doesn't make it fair. Because "non seekers" or whatever you want to call them, in China, will remain unsaved non Christians. But plenty of American "non seekers" will be saved merely due to the fortunate fact that they are born American and therefore Christian. In other words its a lot more difficult for Chinese to find Christianity than Americans.

Thus one of three things must be true.

1. People were predestined before they were born to be saved or not, and what country they were born into is part of that. Not Ready evidently believes this, although he shys away from this subject because he knows even most Christians disagree. But he did once write that "it was no accident that he was born in the southern US" where his beliefs are prevalent. That answer addresses the issue. But it also makes a mockery of the idea that we have choices or free will.

2. People are being punished for the sins of their ancestors. Chinese in the past have historically been non Christian. So God is going to make it harder for their children to be saved. Doesn't seem right to me. How bout you?

OR

3. God doesn't care about being fair or just.

[dknightx]

david: its foolish for anyone (christian and non-christian alike) to try to figure out how God will judge every single situation. All we DO know is that there is (at least) one way to God, and that is the redeeming blood of Christ. Can a non-believer still reach heaven? Maybe, maybe not, but its a choice you have to make. I think if you are honestly searching for God, and desire to do things that are pleasing to God, God will honor that, even if you never are FULLY convinced God exists. The opposite is true as well. Just saying you believe in Jesus, but not actually living in a way that supports that, is meaningless to God.

[ill rich]

you misunderstand

jesus died to save us

so weather or not you're a christian, you still go to heaven

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
david: its foolish for anyone (christian and non-christian alike) to try to figure out how God will judge every single situation. All we DO know is that there is (at least) one way to God, and that is the redeeming blood of Christ. Can a non-believer still reach heaven? Maybe, maybe not, but its a choice you have to make. I think if you are honestly searching for God, and desire to do things that are pleasing to God, God will honor that, even if you never are FULLY convinced God exists. The opposite is true as well. Just saying you believe in Jesus, but not actually living in a way that supports that, is meaningless to God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Does this coincide with your past posts?

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

you misunderstand

jesus died to save us

so weather or not you're a christian, you still go to heaven


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[cambraceres]

If 2 is true then so is three, and if one is valid three is meaningless because it is invalid to impose a morality on a narrative. Furthermore, I'm not sure what version of Christianity some fine person has exposed you to which is fair, or equitable, or just or any other junk heap concept you wish to apply like a flaccid template to a barbaric philosophy such as one a religion would have you adopt.

And to the first responder

[ QUOTE ]
Can a non-believer still reach heaven? Maybe, maybe not

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Just saying you believe in Jesus, but not actually living in a way that supports that, is meaningless to God.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is the essence of the Christian response, appreciate that slugger.

Cam

[ALawPoker]

Maybe there is no hell for the Chinese.

Maybe God measures how much opportunity you had to accept him vs. how well you accepted him, and your reward or punishment is based on that. If you are from China and had no shot, maybe your soul disappears, or goes to some really neutral place. If you're from Alabama born to Christian parents, maybe you burn near the heart of the fire. And maybe the people from China that do find God get to sit on the highest cloud with the most pleasure or whatever.

[Insp. Clue!So?]

[ QUOTE ]
david: its foolish for anyone (christian and non-christian alike) to try to figure out how God will judge every single situation. All we DO know is that there is (at least) one way to God, and that is the redeeming blood of Christ. Can a non-believer still reach heaven? Maybe, maybe not, but its a choice you have to make. I think if you are honestly searching for God, and desire to do things that are pleasing to God, God will honor that, even if you never are FULLY convinced God exists. The opposite is true as well. Just saying you believe in Jesus, but not actually living in a way that supports that, is meaningless to God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so if you're a three-year-old kid in western China who gets run over by a truck loaded with Jesus figurines headed for Lynchburg, VA, you've made your gasping last choice and are therefore headed for that Great Big Eternal BBQ. Gotcha.

[godBoy]

indeed.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
david: its foolish for anyone (christian and non-christian alike) to try to figure out how God will judge every single situation. All we DO know is that there is (at least) one way to God, and that is the redeeming blood of Christ. Can a non-believer still reach heaven? Maybe, maybe not, but its a choice you have to make. I think if you are honestly searching for God, and desire to do things that are pleasing to God, God will honor that, even if you never are FULLY convinced God exists. The opposite is true as well. Just saying you believe in Jesus, but not actually living in a way that supports that, is meaningless to God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so if you're a three-year-old kid in western China who gets run over by a truck loaded with Jesus figurines headed for Lynchburg, VA, you've made your gasping last choice and are therefore headed for that Great Big Eternal BBQ. Gotcha.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand the atheist response in this thread. why cant we have a decent, mature conversation without making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? i guess i was wrong to give this forum another chance. have fun with your christian bashing atheist buddies.

and yes david, this is consistent with my previous posts. God will judge everyone justly. whether or not you want to assume you KNOW how God will judge everyone is up to you.

[Insp. Clue!So?]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
david: its foolish for anyone (christian and non-christian alike) to try to figure out how God will judge every single situation. All we DO know is that there is (at least) one way to God, and that is the redeeming blood of Christ. Can a non-believer still reach heaven? Maybe, maybe not, but its a choice you have to make. I think if you are honestly searching for God, and desire to do things that are pleasing to God, God will honor that, even if you never are FULLY convinced God exists. The opposite is true as well. Just saying you believe in Jesus, but not actually living in a way that supports that, is meaningless to God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so if you're a three-year-old kid in western China who gets run over by a truck loaded with Jesus figurines headed for Lynchburg, VA, you've made your gasping last choice and are therefore headed for that Great Big Eternal BBQ. Gotcha.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand the atheist response in this thread. why cant we have a decent, mature conversation without making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? i guess i was wrong to give this forum another chance. have fun with your christian bashing atheist buddies.

and yes david, this is consistent with my previous posts. God will judge everyone justly. whether or not you want to assume you KNOW how God will judge everyone is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, as if your own post isn't filled with assumins' and a-jumpins'.

But your real problem is holding dear the idea that your notion of an undetected sky fairy who gives a [censored] about you is worth giving serious consideration in the first place. It's not even medieval; it's pre-medieval thought. Heck, it's not even thought, it's pre-medieval pining. You wanna live forever, you wanna believe somebody really is in charge, so hey presto! let the hand-waving begin.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
and yes david, this is consistent with my previous posts. God will judge everyone justly. whether or not you want to assume you KNOW how God will judge everyone is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you misunderstand. David isn't claiming he knows anything; he's simply using the beliefs of existing believers. Compare the first two replies in this thread, for example.

It's theists who arrogantly and hilariously claim they understand God, i.e. "God will judge everyone justly". David's point is that if you believe this, then other common beliefs of Christianity are logically inconsistent with this position. He wants theists to admit this obvious and correct point, but it seems none have either the balls or the honesty.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
other common beliefs of Christianity are logically inconsistent with this position

[/ QUOTE ]

i never denied that, i actually think ive said before that most people don't understand christianity (christians alike). But of course that is just countered with "thats just YOUR interpretation", so basically ive reached the conclusion thats pointless to debate religion on this forum.

[Spence]

"thats just YOUR interpretation"

There's a reason they say that. Are you trying to insist that you and another person will read the bible and take the same out of it? I'm 100% sure there are people that know the bible BETTER than you, and believe it has totally different meanings than you believe it has.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
"thats just YOUR interpretation"

There's a reason they say that. Are you trying to insist that you and another person will read the bible and take the same out of it? I'm 100% sure there are people that know the bible BETTER than you, and believe it has totally different meanings than you believe it has.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i agree, whats your point? My point is that atheists will always cling to the interpretation that supports their argument, and theists will undoubtedly do the same. Just because the interpretation that supports the atheist argument may be the most "popular" or "outspoken" interpretation does not mean its the correct one. Atheists should understand that better than anyone i would think.

so bottom line, debating of something that requires this level of interpretation and analysis is worthless, because either side is ever willing to concede (or so it seems). To add to that, there are some people in this forum who can't seem to have a normal discussion without getting angry/snide any time the oppurtunity presents itself (unwarrented or not). If you actually want to DISCUSS something, then let's discuss. If you are just finding a reason to spout about how smart you are and how stupid the other side is, then i have no reason to participate in this forum except as pure entertainment.

It doesn't help that theists are the minority on this board. If you would prefer that we all leave, then i'll be more than happy to (and i'd be more than happy to cease these religious "discussions"). If you'd like us to stay just so you have more fodder to throw your oh-so-original insults at, then i have better things to waste my time on, like BBV4Life.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you are honestly searching for God, and desire to do things that are pleasing to God, God will honor that, even if you never are FULLY convinced God exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

By your emphasis on the word "FULLY" I'm assuming that you think a person would at least have to be "A LITTLE" convinced god exists?

This is the type of equivocation that Christians are always using. Let's forget about faith for a second. Does a good Chinese person who doesn't believe in god go to heaven? Yes or no?

Even a Chinese athiest who strives to live a good life should be "pleasing to god", that is if god values goodness in his creations.

The problem with Christianity is it's relentless hammering on the virtue of faith. Faith is not a virtue. It is a winning lottery ticket given to some people for being born in the right country or to the right parents. Faith has nothing - ZERO - to do with a good life or good works, and it is not earned no matter how much some believers would like to think it is.

So what's the deal? Is it faith or goodness that god wants from us?

[Taraz]

I have to say that I kind of agree with dknight on this point. Any time any semi-religious person comes into this forum and tries to make a more coherent argument about what they believe they get smashed by those who say, "you're just making that up."

It's like some atheists only validate the most whacked out interpretations of a religion. It's got to be frustrating for the thoughtful theist. He tries to fight against the insanity on his side, but then the atheists aid the fundamentalists in the fight.

[dknightx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you are honestly searching for God, and desire to do things that are pleasing to God, God will honor that, even if you never are FULLY convinced God exists.

[/ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]
i appreciate the geniune response, so i will do my best to answer your questions using MY interpretation.
[ QUOTE ]

By your emphasis on the word "FULLY" I'm assuming that you think a person would at least have to be "A LITTLE" convinced god exists?


[/ QUOTE ]

no, mostly to say that the interpretation that one needs 100% certainty in the existence of God as a requirement for salvation is not correct.

[ QUOTE ]

This is the type of equivocation that Christians are always using. Let's forget about faith for a second. Does a good Chinese person who doesn't believe in god go to heaven? Yes or no?


[/ QUOTE ]

honestly, I don't know. But I would also answer "I don't know" to the question "Does a good person who believes in god go to heaven?". I am led to believe, based on my interpretation of the bible, that God will judge each person on an individual basis, not just throw everyone into two groups "believers" and "non-believers".

[ QUOTE ]

Even a Chinese athiest who strives to live a good life should be "pleasing to god", that is if god values goodness in his creations.


[/ QUOTE ]

and i have no doubt that he is.

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with Christianity is it's relentless hammering on the virtue of faith. Faith is not a virtue. It is a winning lottery ticket given to some people for being born in the right country or to the right parents. Faith has nothing - ZERO - to do with a good life or good works, and it is not earned no matter how much some believers would like to think it is.

So what's the deal? Is it faith or goodness that god wants from us?

[/ QUOTE ]

he wants both. "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26. The way you "prove" your faith is through works. Mainly because if you have faith in what Jesus says, to blatently do something you know is against His word obviously means you don't believe what He says. For a christian, they are one in the same.

remember, this is merely MY interpretation of the bible, you can take it or leave it.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
you misunderstand

jesus died to save us

so weather or not you're a christian, you still go to heaven

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the other theists on this board disagree with you.

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
Any time any semi-religious person comes into this forum and tries to make a more coherent argument about what they believe they get smashed by those who say, "you're just making that up."


[/ QUOTE ]

They're making it up as they go along. They just don't realize that they're doing it. If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't see as many contradictions between posters such as txag, NotReady, and Peter666 (to name just 3).

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any time any semi-religious person comes into this forum and tries to make a more coherent argument about what they believe they get smashed by those who say, "you're just making that up."


[/ QUOTE ]

They're making it up as they go along. They just don't realize that they're doing it. If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't see as many contradictions between posters such as txag, NotReady, and Peter666 (to name just 3).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's kind of my point though. That's what religion is. Everyone is making it up as they go along. So why call out the moderates as not being Christian enough? They are as Christian as the fundamentalists.

It just seems kind of silly. A lot of atheists seem to be saying, "oh well, these guys don't really count as Christian because I'm not arguing against what they are saying."

[JussiUt]

I think the line between "a real Christian" and not should be whether you believe Jesus died for our sins, that He was a son of God and the he ascended to Heaven and now if you have faith in Him we get to go to Heaven. Basically if you believe in Jesus that makes you a Christian.

If you say "no, I can't be sure that Jesus was a son of God etc. but I still believe in God in my own way" that makes you quite heavily an agnostic and what I've noticed in my personal life these people are also more "mystic" and "spiritual" in a sense that they talk about Love etc. and not much about the Bible or the dogmas. There are exceptions of course but I think that's the way it goes at least in Europe.

There are varying degrees of Christianity of course. Each person has to create his own belief system and dare I say the more intelligent or more thoughtful the person has been on religious matters the more complicated and "non-Christian" their faith becomes. Feel free to oppose this assertion but I think as a general rule it's quite obvious.

My point: The line between "a real Christian" and not goes somewhere along the lines of "do you believe Jesus was a son of God and died because of our sins" and the more intelligent a person of faith is the more he interpretes and "complicates" his own belief system.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the line between "a real Christian" and not should be whether you believe Jesus died for our sins, that He was a son of God and the he ascended to Heaven and now if you have faith in Him we get to go to Heaven. Basically if you believe in Jesus that makes you a Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, unfortunately for you, there are heaps of christians that have a different definition, either more or less "liberal" than you. That makes it very hard for anyone outside looking, or rather trying to look, in the mirage!

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the line between "a real Christian" and not should be whether you believe Jesus died for our sins, that He was a son of God and the he ascended to Heaven and now if you have faith in Him we get to go to Heaven. Basically if you believe in Jesus that makes you a Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

But, unfortunately for you, there are heaps of christians that have a different definition, either more or less "liberal" than you. That makes it very hard for anyone outside looking, or rather trying to look, in the mirage!

[/ QUOTE ]

What complicates things even further is the problem of "meaning" for the phrase,

"Jesus was the son of God and died because of our sins"

both as a whole and term by term.

PairTheBoard

[MidGe]

I think you are quite right PairTheBoard, when it comes to it, their is no such thing as christianity, only individual point of views... as many as there are individual christians!

And only one of them could possibly be right! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

1. People were predestined before they were born to be saved or not, and what country they were born into is part of that. Not Ready evidently believes this, although he shys away from this subject because he knows even most Christians disagree. But he did once write that "it was no accident that he was born in the southern US" where his beliefs are prevalent. That answer addresses the issue. But it also makes a mockery of the idea that we have choices or free will.


[/ QUOTE ]


There are no accidents with God. But that doesn't eliminate human responsibility. We're still not robots.

[ QUOTE ]

OR

3. God doesn't care about being fair or just.


[/ QUOTE ]

OR

4. "God's thoughts are not our thoughts" and "His ways are unsearchable and His judgments past finding out".

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are quite right PairTheBoard, when it comes to it, their is no such thing as christianity, only individual point of views... as many as there are individual christians!

And only one of them could possibly be right! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on what you mean by "right".

PairTheBoard

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are quite right PairTheBoard, when it comes to it, their is no such thing as christianity, only individual point of views... as many as there are individual christians!

And only one of them could possibly be right! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I disagree with this as well. If by "right" you mean that only one of them has all the historical facts completely accurate, I might agree with you. But all interpretations are "right" in the sense that religion is simply interpretation. It's pretty difficult to prove that someone's interpretation is "wrong". However, some interpretations are more reasonable than others.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you are quite right PairTheBoard, when it comes to it, their is no such thing as christianity, only individual point of views... as many as there are individual christians!

And only one of them could possibly be right! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I disagree with this as well. If by "right" you mean that only one of them has all the historical facts completely accurate, I might agree with you. But all interpretations are "right" in the sense that religion is simply interpretation. It's pretty difficult to prove that someone's interpretation is "wrong". However, some interpretations are more reasonable than others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Well, more or less. I agree that you can talk about the relative reasonableness of various interpretations. But I think what's more important is the kinds of attitudes or Spirit they tend to evoke for those who adopt them. Is it a Spirit of tolerance or intolerance, humility or self righteousness, inclusion or exclusion, self esteem or self loathing, optimism or pessimism, common sense or superstition, friendliness or haughtiness, modesty or smugness, caring or coldness, sympathetic or judgemental, generous or cramped.

The obsession people here have with correctness, accuracy, or what's "right" comes from a lack of understanding of what we're talking about. The important thing about an Interpretation is the Spiritual Direction in which it leads a person. People here think the Religion must be defined by a single strand that can be identified as "correct" when the Religion should more properly be looked at as a Cable consisting of many strands leading in the same Spiritual Direction. And even that analogy is limited. It could also be looked at as a Network or a Web or a Weave. The Religion is in the wholeness of the Weave not in the correctness of any particular thread, even though individuals have their own subjective view at the level of threads and conceptualize the truth as they see it from that perspective.

PairTheBoard

[southerndog]

I think its more unfair that being unexposed will give u a free pass. that means the best place to be born in raised is in a jungle somewhere, and die at about age 4.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
3. God doesn't care about being fair or just.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who's read the Old Testament already knows this to be true. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
3. God doesn't care about being fair or just.



Anyone who's read the Old Testament already knows this to be true.


[/ QUOTE ]


Exodus 22:21
" You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 22:22
You shall not afflict any widow or orphan.

Deuteronomy 24:17
17"You shall not pervert the justice due an alien or an orphan, nor take a widow's garment in pledge.

Jeremiah 7
6if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin,
7then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.


Exodus 23:6
"You shall not pervert the justice due to your needy brother in his dispute.

Exodus 23:2

You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to pervert justice;

Deuteronomy 10:18
"He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing.

Deuteronomy 24:19
" When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

Psalm 10:
17O LORD, You have heard the desire of the humble;
You will strengthen their heart, You will incline Your ear
18To vindicate the orphan and the oppressed,
So that man who is of the earth will no longer cause terror.

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do good; Seek justice,Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan,Plead for the widow.

[David Sklansky]

Who on this forum wants to lay me 400-1 odds that within five years Not Ready will convert to Judaism? I'll bet up to $300.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Who on this forum wants to lay me 400-1 odds that within five years Not Ready will convert to Judaism? I'll bet up to $300.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not good for this, and 400-1 is a pretty ridiculous line, but 50-1 sounds really hot to me.

[bunny]

Considerations like this lead me to believe hell doesnt exist. If there's a benevolent God and if there's a heaven then I cant understand how it wouldnt be open to everyone, without exception.

[Stormwolf]

[ QUOTE ]

Exodus 22:21
" You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.


[/ QUOTE ]

Someone can make a post just as big containing the attrocities of the old testament

[Leaky Eye]

[ QUOTE ]

I think its more unfair that being unexposed will give u a free pass. that means the best place to be born in raised is in a jungle somewhere, and die at about age 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be even better off as an aborted fetus.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
Who on this forum wants to lay me 400-1 odds that within five years Not Ready will convert to Judaism? I'll bet up to $300.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think it's more likely that he'll become atheist/agnostic. I've seen it many times -- people like him who embrace the rational aspects of Calvinism, and spend a lot of time and energy trying to defend their beliefs, will sooner or later see that his position is not rational, and will give up -- effectively becoming agnostic/atheist.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
The important thing about an Interpretation is the Spiritual Direction in which it leads a person.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very pernicious kind of nonsense. How do you decide what spiritual direction is most important? For example, if war erupts in the Middle East, and I'm sent with the army, what is the correct spiritual path when a militant is shooting at me? One would think that killing others is one of the worst spiritual acts one can undertake. Should I turn the other cheek, and let the Islamic militants rule the world?

What if my interpretation of the bible is that I'm spiritually required to stone people who commit adultery, so that God might spare their soul? What if my interpretation is such that true compassion requires me to subdue the infidels and force them to learn the ways of Allah, for the benefit of their eternal souls?

Truth is everything. You make it sound simple with your binary alternatives: "tolerance or intolerance, humility or self righteousness, inclusion or exclusion, self esteem or self loathing, optimism or pessimism, common sense or superstition, friendliness or haughtiness, modesty or smugness, caring or coldness, sympathetic or judgemental, generous or cramped"

but in reality they're just words that have little meaning in real life. How do we make decisions without accurate, unbiased knowledge of the world? By your reckoning, someone whose life is improved by the weirdness of Scientology and Dianetics, and who becomes more optimistic, more caring, more sypathetic, more generous as a result, should continue believing in that nonsense? That's exactly what you're advocating.

I believe philosophies that choose truths based on outcomes are responsible for most of the evil in the world. And yet that's exactly what you're advocating.

[Shandrax]

[ QUOTE ]
Who on this forum wants to lay me 400-1 odds that within five years Not Ready will convert to Judaism? I'll bet up to $300.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tempting /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Since the actual chance for this to happen is zero, 400:1 looks like damn good odds.

[KUJustin]

Didn't read the thread but you forgot option 4 which is "God knows more than I do."

That's not meant to be a cop out; I'm not saying the matter doesn't warrant consideration with what faculties we have. I'm just saying don't try to say those are the only 3 options.

It's the equivalent of your 3 year old thinking that if you don't take him to get ice cream you either don't like him or you don't like ice cream.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't read the thread but you forgot option 4 which is "God knows more than I do."

That's not meant to be a cop out; I'm not saying the matter doesn't warrant consideration with what faculties we have. I'm just saying don't try to say those are the only 3 options.

It's the equivalent of your 3 year old thinking that if you don't take him to get ice cream you either don't like him or you don't like ice cream.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small difference. Your third option subsumes the other two, at all times.

[andyfox]

Words are cheap. What about His actions? He's a capricious war god, despite unending efforts at theodicy. Quote away, but His real language is the language of natural disasters as punishment for the imperfections of His own creations.

[JackAll]

It's wierd that people even discuss the lack of religious logic any more.

You can answer any question through using a number of means including diversionary tactics, hard to see flaws in logic, etc. Just because you can't see why and answer to these types of questions are a load of hooey and are untrue doesn't make the religion correct.


It's human nature to be selfish, violent, etc. If you believe god made us, then you must believe that we are just being the way he created us to be - ever heard of 'human nature'? In which case, why do we need some guy to die to 'save' us if we are just being what god created anyway? Such a load.