Watch me totally desecrate a hand (NL50) [Archive]

ama0330

05-07-2007, 03:55 PM

Villain is 17/13/7.5 and plays like crap postflop. I thought he was a good TAG but he sucks. Sorry I can't be more specific there. Please berate me on all streets.

Party Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
5 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

SB: $49.50
BB: $54.75
UTG: $43.51
CO: $116.23
Hero (BTN): $52.27

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Kh.png http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qh.png (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, CO raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $6, 3 folds, CO calls $4.50

Flop: ($13.25) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Qc.png http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/9c.png http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Th.png (2 Players)
CO bets $10, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($33.25) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/4c.png (2 Players)
CO bets $30.50, Hero has $36 behind....

Isura

05-07-2007, 03:58 PM

can't see all the cards

BishopsFinger

05-07-2007, 04:01 PM

this is the way i play it:

call pf - you dont want a big pot with this hand.
call flop 30% raise it 70% - you dont want to swell the pot too much normally but this flop is very drawy and youre probably ahead atm - also raise it more often if he second barrels frequently.
fold turn 100%.

you found out preflop that your hand is probably dominated - he is almost always ahead here imo so muck it.

Peter Harris

05-07-2007, 04:02 PM

raise flop and fold to a reraise;

fold turn.

BishopsFinger

05-07-2007, 04:03 PM

hes holding the kh qh

flop qc, 9c, 10h,

turn 4c

Isura

05-07-2007, 04:05 PM

Looks like AQ/KK/AA.

IshiP2U

05-07-2007, 04:06 PM

If you're going to rely on stats for reads you may want to at least look at this person's PFR% from the CO, as general PFR may be somewhat misleading.....

Gelford

05-07-2007, 04:07 PM

I don't mind it, and I'd snap call turn, but then again I'm a station.

I'd love if you also would have given his attempt to steal blinds stat, if that is large, then 3bet is cool, else I'd go with a flat call and play a smaller pot, tho playing small pots on such wet boards is problematic.

barryc83

05-07-2007, 04:08 PM

Fold turn. Honestly, you might even be able to fold the flop when he leads strong. You say he plays badly postflop, but does he lead strong with QJ/JJ type hands?

Does he always raise this small w/ 1 limper pf?
This crap always scares me, but I dont play on pp.

Isura

05-07-2007, 04:12 PM

I misread the action. Didn't realize that you rr PF and he is donking into you. I would definitely get it all-in here.

barryc83

05-07-2007, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I misread the action. Didn't realize that you rr PF and he is donking into you. I would definitely get it all-in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate more on this plz. Villain is 17/13, a nittag if you will. What is he doing this with that we are beating, especially with the small pfr? I think the psb on the turn is not a bluff that much from this guy even though he has a huge AF. I guess maybe ama could elaborate on what "plays post flop poorly" means.

0evg0

05-07-2007, 04:21 PM

ya call down

CazicT

05-07-2007, 04:24 PM

If i'm reading the stats correctly, he is quite aggressive postflop, but actually pretty tight preflop. I would tend to just call to keep the pot small PF or maybe even fold, though I don't know if that is too weak 6 handed.

He usually has solid hands PF so a re-raise most likely won't work. Also, I'd be careful postflop since KQ is a trap hand.

The turn bet is pretty big and now you will have to decide whether you want to commit to the hand with TPGK.

How specifically is he bad postflop? Against a normal player I think I have to dump this on the turn...

Chomp

05-07-2007, 04:35 PM

????????????? @ Isura & 0evg0.

Please could you explain your thinking in felting here? I just can't understand it at all.

Dunkman

05-07-2007, 04:42 PM

Wouldn't villain go for a c/r on the flop, or at least c/c the flop then lead the turn, if he had the goods? Would he really just start donking into you then? I don't know, part of me think villain is drawing, and part of me thinks he's scared of the draw too and he's playing a set or AQ (maybe AA/KK.) If I was playing the hand I'm pretty sure I'd fold, although I'm not at all sure that's the right play. Lol sorry I didn't have more to offer, I'm really baffled by this one.

I don't really see any value in the pf 3-bet though. What's wrong with just calling from the button. I like the 3-bet a whole lot more if villain has the button and we're in the SB.

derosnec

05-07-2007, 04:50 PM

wow he plays bad. i mean if he has a big hand, he plays bad postflop (especially the turn). if he has air/marginal hand, he plays bad postflop. wtf

anyways, i think this is a decent range (i'm in Poker Stove mode today), although you can discount some of the hands since i don't think anyone would play a made flush that way on the turn.

range:

QdQs
TcTd,TcTs,TdTs
9d9h,9d9s,9h9s
AcKc,AdQd,AsQs
KcJc,KdJd,KsJs
AcKd,AcKs
AcQd,AcQs,AdQc,AdQs,AhQc,AhQd,AhQs,AsQc,AsQd

your equity is 15%

0evg0

05-07-2007, 04:59 PM

no offense, but i have no idea how/why one would resort to PokerStove for anything but an AIPF hand vs a random. and even then, you should already be able to estimate your eq pretty well.

retep

05-07-2007, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no offense, but i have no idea how/why one would resort to PokerStove for anything but an AIPF hand vs a random. and even then, you should already be able to estimate your eq pretty well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we being leveled??

0evg0

05-07-2007, 05:33 PM

ummm.. no.

maybe i can estimate range equities much better than the avg 6max player because i've put in thousands of hours playing mtt's/sng's, but i've never used PokerStove for a cash game hand

Lordy

05-07-2007, 05:49 PM

0evg0

05-07-2007, 06:14 PM

obv good enough to stack off here

ama0330

05-07-2007, 07:20 PM

I was way confused here but I ended up confuse-o-pushing (it was $6 more all in) and he called with J9o no club (????) so I won some monies.

Im not concerned about the fact that I won, Im more concerned about how to play this hand correctly because I feel like I made a mess of it. Isura and others, can you elaborate as to why getting it AI is a good idea here?

retep

05-07-2007, 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ummm.. no.

maybe i can estimate range equities much better than the avg 6max player because i've put in thousands of hours playing mtt's/sng's, but i've never used PokerStove for a cash game hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because you have not does not make it useless. In fact most people would probably find it beneficial to their game to use pokerstove to analyze their equities in certain hands .

Also I am sure you might have developed a feel for ranges, equities, etc. But some of us average players like to quantify things with some numbers rather than some random guesses.

Chomp

05-07-2007, 07:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was way confused here but I ended up confuse-o-pushing (it was $6 more all in) and he called with J9o no club (????) so I won some monies.

Im not concerned about the fact that I won, Im more concerned about how to play this hand correctly because I feel like I made a mess of it. Isura and others, can you elaborate as to why getting it AI is a good idea here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this shows Isura and EVG were spot on.

They must have figured that this was a postflop aggro dude doing what a postflop aggro dude does: semibluffing looking for FE with a draw on a scary board against a TAG.

Artsemis

05-07-2007, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raise flop and fold to a reraise;

fold turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop raise isn't going to leave him with enough to consider folding.

ama0330

05-07-2007, 07:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise flop and fold to a reraise;

fold turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop raise isn't going to leave him with enough to consider folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely, I dont like that line at all.

dimeetrees

05-07-2007, 07:48 PM

If I feel that villain is taking weak leads then Im gonna pop it on the flop 3x his bet and define my hand right there. If he moves in the rest of his stack Im probably gonna have to re-evaluate and possibly fold... Calling and folding on the turn is a cheaper option...

derosnec

05-07-2007, 08:01 PM

against 17/13, who called a reraise pf (and yes i know he is raising from the CO, but there was a limper, so I wouldn't say he was exactly stealing, even though his raise size sucks), i would say that is a pretty crap flop for you and your equity isn't so hot. but when he leads the flop and the turn, it's really fishy, especially since you reraised pf and would be expected to bet a drawy flop.

this hand is weird and is not typical of the way a 17/13 plays, but then again you play at Party which is the land of the surreal anyway.

0evg0

05-07-2007, 08:05 PM

if you're going to use PokerStove, at least learn that ranges should be weighted.

if you think he is taking this line with QQ as often as he is with JT, well... lol. when you just put all those hands into Stove, it spits out numbers assuming he takes that line with each hand equally as often.

and btw, no one ever has QQ here, and almost never 99/TT.

derosnec

05-07-2007, 08:10 PM

yeah yeah, i was at work. i didn't have time, or energy, to do weighting and write a mathematical treatise. still, i thought i'd post a little more substance than the usual "call" "fold" responses. and even though really strong hands aren't usually leading, who the hell knows when the flop is drawy. i've had sets, straights, overpairs lead into me because they freak out when they see two clubs on the flop.

paulw

05-07-2007, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no offense, but i have no idea how/why one would resort to PokerStove for anything but an AIPF hand vs a random.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I think for anyone learning the game coming up through the micros (me being one of them) this is terrible advice IMO.

Isura

05-07-2007, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no offense, but i have no idea how/why one would resort to PokerStove for anything but an AIPF hand vs a random.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I think for anyone learning the game coming up through the micros (me being one of them) this is terrible advice IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

C4LL4W4Y

05-07-2007, 10:45 PM

He makes a good point about weighting ranges though.

derosnec

05-07-2007, 10:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He makes a good point about weighting ranges though.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup he definitely does. it's a pain to do, and i'm not sure i do it right (when i review a few PT hands). but i'm learning. one thing though that using Poker Stove does is reveal the large # of hands villain could have that hit a flop (or gives decent draws). usually i don't think of all those hands. i usually think, "oh, he led into me as the PFR. he has junk and will fold to a raise (which is true 90% of the time)."