How can you convert..

[MegaloMialo]

How can you convert a believer?
An atheist or an agnostic would require some evidence to prove gods existence.
How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith? How does he step away from his beliefs?

[godBoy]

Why you would want to is a very important question to ask yourself I think.

Firstly, you would have to have some credibility. If someone trusts \ respects you they will listen to what you say.

Each believer is different and has their own reasons for their belief. I would first find out exactly what those reasons are and try and understand them.

If you still want to convert this person, then go away and think about those reasons. See if you can present simpler and better explanations for them that dont involve God.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Each believer is different and has their own reasons for their belief.

[/ QUOTE ] and their own beliefs! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

True, true! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

At least atheists have a lack of ground in common. It must be, by definition, yours at least, going on from your comment, the largest single group in agreement with each others!!

[godBoy]

Your a [censored] genious MidGe.

Edit: One for yukoncpa

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you convert a believer?
An atheist or an agnostic would require some evidence to prove gods existence.
How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith? How does he step away from his beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to say that, in theory, you could not. However, its been my experience that no one really believes based on faith, at least not in the technical sense. Faith is just a substitute for fuzzy thinking. If they truly believed on faith it would be impossible to convince them, but they actually believe for REASONS. If you can determine what those reasons are, you have a foothold. Common reasons: desire for 'ultimate' answers, poor math skills, poor reasoning skills, raised that way, feeling of community. Unfortunately, most of these causes do not have simple solutions.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you convert a believer?
An atheist or an agnostic would require some evidence to prove gods existence.
How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith? How does he step away from his beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Education.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you convert a believer?
An atheist or an agnostic would require some evidence to prove gods existence.
How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith? How does he step away from his beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Education.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which way does the correlation run?

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you convert a believer?
An atheist or an agnostic would require some evidence to prove gods existence.
How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith? How does he step away from his beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Education.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which way does the correlation run?

[/ QUOTE ]



Q: How can you convert a believer?

A: Education.


Q: How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith?

A: Education.


Q: How does he step away from his beliefs?

A: Education.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you convert a believer?
An atheist or an agnostic would require some evidence to prove gods existence.
How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith? How does he step away from his beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Education.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which way does the correlation run?

[/ QUOTE ]



Q: How can you convert a believer?

A: Education.


Q: How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith?

A: Education.


Q: How does he step away from his beliefs?

A: Education.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah...
To you, belief may be a matter of education, but for 'believers' the facts aren't relevant. The best ways to bring people over to 'your side' have nothing to do with the facts. Just a tip for you kids /images/graemlins/smile.gif. And it's not just religion...people take sides in any issue based on factors that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you convert a believer?
An atheist or an agnostic would require some evidence to prove gods existence.
How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith? How does he step away from his beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Education.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which way does the correlation run?

[/ QUOTE ]



Q: How can you convert a believer?

A: Education.


Q: How would you be able to convert a religious man determined in his faith?

A: Education.


Q: How does he step away from his beliefs?

A: Education.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah...
To you, belief may be a matter of education, but for 'believers' the facts aren't relevant. The best ways to bring people over to 'your side' have nothing to do with the facts. Just a tip for you kids /images/graemlins/smile.gif. And it's not just religion...people take sides in any issue based on factors that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

PR != education?

[Justin A]

I recently converted from Christian to Atheist/Agnotic(depending on your definition). The main thing for me was finally tackling the questions that had been in the back of my mind for years but I had failed to address them because of my "faith." Once I finally began truly searching for answers to these questions it became obvious that the religion I had grown up believing was a farce.

[ill rich]

why would you want to?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you convert a believer?

[/ QUOTE ]
By providing alternative explanations for his reasons for believing.

[MegaloMialo]

I don't care whether someone is religious or not.
Just curious as for what the "leaving point" would be for anyone who believes in god.

I find in interesting that we know that the bible has been written and rewritten by man. It's context has not been able to withstand the truth of things and there has not been any sign of god (and there wont be according to him, cause he only cares about faith).

Still people believe in the bible and in god.
Perhaps it is convenient, perhaps they are afraid of hell, perhaps it's all they have, perhaps they are attached to their community and wish to remain so, perhaps it gives life purpose, etc.
They do however accept something purely based on faith.

[revots33]

I started a thread a while back called something like "Believers: what would it take for you to no longer believe?" Not one believer was able to present any hypothetical event that would make them give up their faith. I actually think it is impossible. The less reason to believe, the more points god awards for faith, as in the bible verses about doubting Thomas. The less reason you have to believe, the more you should believe. It's genius, actually.

[ill rich]

i think there is no "leaving point" for the faithful.

faith is God dosen't really rely on proof or logic.

it's just a choice actually.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
i think there is no "leaving point" for the faithful.

faith is God dosen't really rely on proof or logic.

it's just a choice actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much why I quit believing.

If you're not relying on logic, then everything is guesswork. Why is your guess better than the guesses of people who follow any other religion? The truth is, you actually do use logic and reasoning to come to your beliefs, but then when you realize the logic breaks down when defending those beliefs, you have to resort to calling it faith and that logic and reasoning don't apply.

[ill rich]

justin, it's a choice really.

an educated Chistrian has the same observations as an educated atheist, we just choose to put our faith in different places.

the explination is one set of conclusions to those observations sits better (or along with) the other.

from reading this forum, it seems like the atheists here just can't accept someone would actually think differently.

it's not that big of a deal.

[MegaloMialo]

[ QUOTE ]
justin, it's a choice really.

an educated Chistrian has the same observations as an educated atheist, we just choose to put our faith in different places.

the explination is one set of conclusions to those observations sits better (or along with) the other.

from reading this forum, it seems like the atheists here just can't accept someone would actually think differently.

it's not that big of a deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't faith the exact opposite of what man kind represents?
For our survival, our development we never leave things up to faith, we make sure of knowing.
We never leave things up to faith because when we do, they normally go wrong.
If humans relied on beliefs rather then of knowledge we would never have gotten very far.
Yet some many people have decided to believe in something purely based on faith.
I guess it's a convincing book with many convinced people determined to convince others.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
justin, it's a choice really.

an educated Chistrian has the same observations as an educated atheist, we just choose to put our faith in different places.

the explination is one set of conclusions to those observations sits better (or along with) the other.

from reading this forum, it seems like the atheists here just can't accept someone would actually think differently.

it's not that big of a deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't faith the exact opposite of what man kind represents?
For our survival, our development we never leave things up to faith, we make sure of knowing.
We never leave things up to faith because when we do, they normally go wrong.
If humans relied on beliefs rather then of knowledge we would never have gotten very far.
Yet some many people have decided to believe in something purely based on faith.
I guess it's a convincing book with many convinced people determined to convince others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, faith seems to be directly opposed to evangelism as well. If its a choice and its not based on arguments, why do they try to CONVINCE me? Surely, there are no good reasons for making this choice. If there were, they would be subject to logic and reason, and godboy has assured us this is not the case. So, since it is a free choice based on faith, evangelism is by definition futile.

[soon2bepro]

I'm with vhawk01 here, education. Well, mostly anyway.

It works if you catch them while still young, and if they're not mentally retarded or anything.

If you want to convert a strong believer who's older than 30, it's going to be a really hard task, but pretty much as Godboy said, it's going to be different for each particular case. In extreme (but still pretty common) cases, it may take years of work and loads of money to accomplish. (assuming you don't do brain washing/frying, torture conditioning, psychiatric drugs, etc)

Weak believers are another issue, even old ones. It's still dependant on each case, but they're much easier to convert.

btw, I really don't like the term "converting to atheism", like it's a religion of it's own

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
from reading this forum, it seems like the atheists here just can't accept someone would actually think differently.

it's not that big of a deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to the families of 9/11 victims.

[jogger08152]

I won't respond to any follow-up questions in this thread (because I don't want to hijack), but I think before you ask how to do this, it's worth giving careful consideration to whether or not you should do it.

[reup]

how do you convert a converted??? a paradox!!! how do you find your way to the bathroom in the middle of the night? well if you've been there before it's not so hard to find your way in the dark. and who hasn't been to the bathroom before really. . . but i guess sometimes you forget, for-get . . . hmmm sometimes you do for get. to get something eh? you greedy bastard. what if you didn't for get and just went for it. that might be inter-a-stinggggg owwwww it's painful to do that!

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
Education.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
I won't respond to any follow-up questions in this thread (because I don't want to hijack), but I think before you ask how to do this, it's worth giving careful consideration to whether or not you should do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if given the opportunity, you should.

[MaxWeiss]

Whoever said education is dead on. The moment you confront them, they put up the mental block and prepare themselves. But teaching them things like logical reasoning skills, history of other civilizations and people who worship other gods and so on--just general education stuff--will plant the seed of reason and doubt into their minds, if it is possible. It is not possible for some people, but for those those who can be "saved", this is by far the best way--you put all the material in their heads and they come to the realization on their own when their mental defenses aren't up and ready for battle.