50NL - badly played top 2 pair on flushing turn HU in position?

[Peter Harris]

Playing someone who is massively deepstacked.

I am @ 1.5 buyins. He's near 6. Won a pot vs villain with A9s vs his KT when he bet the AKx flop and called my river
VALUETOWN bet.

Tell me how badly i mangled this hand. I should bet the turn, right? being c/r sucks but doesn't automatically mean i'm beat? I thought i should check and call a non-club river bet, value bet when checked to, and fold to a donk on
a 4fl river.

NL50, 5handed.

UTG: $31.92
CO: $77
BTN (Hero): $83.80
SB: $58.40
BB: $306.64

Hero is button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Preflop: 1 fold, CO limps $0.50, Hero Raises to $2, SB calls $1.75, BB calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50.

Flop (Pot $8, 4 players): 2/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB bets $2.50, CO folds, Hero raises to $10, SB folds, BB calls $7.50.

Turn (Pot $27, 2 players): 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, Hero checks.

River (Pot $27, 2 players): 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets $16, Hero calls $16.

Final pot $58

[Peter Harris]

bump

is this hand fine? I doubt it. Is the turn check "pot control"? Not sure.

Any comments?

[Peter Harris]

24hr bump

is there something i'm missing in this hand?

[biblesalesman]

I think your pf play is a litte loose but ok thats fine, your postflop play is flawless and so is your turn play I would say. Keeping the pot under control is the right thing to do here. Villian's tiny litte flop bet looks a lot like a flushdraw. I don't like the river call though, what do you really beat anyhow? If he was drawing to a flush or str8 which is quite likely your beat and if he somehow had a set of deuces your beat as well. The bet screams; "I've got a good hand and want to be paid off without scaring you away" IMO. The only thing I see you beating is k9 and thats unlikely.

BTW this might be an offensive question but how is it after 5103 posts on this forum that you still play NL50? (no offense pal /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

[Peter Harris]

I think isolating KJ isn't too bad depending on the villain.

I thought after checking the turn i was inducing bets from weaker hands as well as bluffs.

And i imagine about 1k of my posts were in OOT, and before that i spent a lot of time in SSSH limit - moved to NL last month and am taking it slow, plan to be at NL100 next month!

[Some9]

I agree with biblesalesman

The river call kinda sucks. What bets the flop and doesnt beat you on the river? I think a river fold is ok if he is not overly aggressive.

In your spot I would play the same all hand though.

[xeanatic]

I would bet the turn to get him to check to me on the river, anyone else that follows this line?

[Chomp]

I play this hand exactly the same, but really, I am certain that river bet is horrible news for us.

I suppose some would say we have induced villain to make a move with our turn check. But when we think back to his flop action, that would be pretty consistent with a draw or even a better made hand than KJ (i.e. a set).

So if we add our information from flop with the fact of his river bet (which looks value-sized) then a flush looks horribly likely. Maybe a set. Rarely a bluff or worse 2p/1p IMO.

On river, we are being offered a bit worse than 3/1, and really I doubt we are good here 25+% of the time, but I call anyway lol.

Fwiw, I am pretty certain that folding rivers like this is a hugely, hugely important factor in one's winrate.

[Quester]

With the 3-flush out there, I'd prefer to bet the turn to look for a cheap showdown. We can invest the $16 now to make for an easier decision if raised or bet into on the river.

[barryc83]

[ QUOTE ]

On river, we are being offered a bit worse than 3/1, and really I doubt we are good here 25+% of the time, but I call anyway lol.

Fwiw, I am pretty certain that folding rivers like this is a hugely, hugely important factor in one's winrate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and I call here too much. QT got there and so did clubs. And the weak donk on the flop indicates a draw of some sort. I also check the turn here, and think that river should probably be folded.

[Peter Harris]

does this read alter anything - it was in the OP:

[ QUOTE ]
I am @ 1.5 buyins. He's near 6. Won a pot vs villain with A9s vs his KT when he bet the AKx flop and called my river VALUETOWN bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[JNuey]

Does anybody hate a bet on the turn here to try and see a free showdown? I think sometimes in this case betting like $16-19 on the turn it makes our river decision easier and gets us more value out of the hand the % of the time we are ahead. This way we KNOW what to do when the river comes another crappy card like this.

[Peter Harris]

after the hand i thought about the turn bet, which is why i came here. there are a lot of people sounding out the turn bet, but noone has fully denounced the turn check.

Guess tis the traditional pot control vs protection dilemma. I guess if i was going to invest $16, i'd rather do it on a non-club river after checking the turn than investing $16 on the turn, being called and not knowing what to do on the river (depending on what falls).

[tiger_hall]

ewwwwww...
im probably folding the river...
i cant really see a hand that you beat...
pretty nasty...

[Peter Harris]

comments in white:

<font color="white">i was not entirely sure about the river call, but figured the turn was a more important street. I don't think a concensus has been reached on whether the turn check is a good thing - given that most people are saying "fold river" i suppose that it looks like bet turn, fold to c/r, if called check river behind is the premium line.

FWIW, i went with the read of villain in the hand I played with him earlier (when he bet 2nd pair on flop and called a river bet) and called. Villain showed JTo for 2nd pair and MHIG. Maybe an anomaly</font>

[chris216]

Why does everyone think a call on the river is bad? Couldn't he easily have a king or jack? I think you will see KQ, KT, K9, J9,... quite a bit. I only play NL25 myself so someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I would play the hand the exact same way.

[Kasane]

A c/r on this board would suck. Deep as you are, turn check is pretty prudent usually.

On the other hand, a one club draw if you're ahead is also somewhat likely if you're ahead. Your opponent seems like the non-believer type (calling with the K on an AK board example) -- unless he's shown a lot of c/r potential I think I bet the turn for a free showdown. If you're raised, then you can safely fold. Costs about the same as the river call (mandatory I think) when you check and gets you about the same info. Unless he's a crazy nutcase "I wanna out play you sucka" type who might get you to fold the best hand, I think this is a bet on the turn.

I think the difference between the two is not that huge considering how deep you are.

[Dunkman]

I must be missing something, because for the life of me I can't see how you check the turn then don't call the river bet that you induced. I don't mind betting the turn either...man you guys are tight. You're only ok putting money in on one street with top 2? At this level? Now if villain makes a big raise on the turn then I may very well be gone, but he's gonna show me more than a $2.50 flop bet before I think top 2 isn't good.

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
I must be missing something, because for the life of me I can't see how you check the turn then don't call the river bet that you induced. I don't mind betting the turn either...man you guys are tight. You're only ok putting money in on one street with top 2? At this level? Now if villain makes a big raise on the turn then I may very well be gone, but he's gonna show me more than a $2.50 flop bet before I think top 2 isn't good.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not putting money in on 1 street only, I plan to value bet the river when checked to. It's pot control vs protection issue on the turn - being c/r on the turn there with top 2 sucks hard.

[mrw8419]

I bet turn to get calls from kx with 1 club. We have two pair against a donk, vb,vb,vb.

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet turn to get calls from kx with 1 club. We have two pair against a donk, vb,vb,vb.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you do when c/r?

[biblesalesman]

If hes a decent player he wouldnt be calling 4bb oop pf with k9 kt j9 and probably not kq either and these are about the only hands you beat on the river so dont call unless he is donkylicous...

[monkeymaps]

well nothing in the OP says villan is good player. I also cant see how we can fold river given our line like ever given previous read on villian: your getting over 2:1 to call and we just took TP to value town on him a few hands ago.

My line is bet turn fold to raise here I dont realy like checking here if im just going to fold to a river bet.