Villain gut shot straight and a flush draw [Archive]

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JH1

05-05-2007, 07:37 AM

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.02/$0.04
8 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, 3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, SB calls, Hero (poster) checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.16, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.12, UTG raises to $0.24, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.64, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.36, UTG raises to $0.72, Hero calls.

River: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.08, 2 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG raises to $3.4, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $8.88

UTG shows Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I don't know what to do against these calling stations anymore, they've depleted my bankroll to almost nothing in the past couple of days. I don't believe I was giving him pot odds at any time, and yet I was being raised on top of that. My trips just don't hold out 90% of the time (I posted a thread in BBV the other day regarding this). Raise more, re-raise?

Aside: should I switch to Stars (I've been at UB)? I just can't handle these players, they make me tilt too much like the other day when I go all in on a full rainbow turn with trips (5x pot bet) and the guy calls and rivers me with a gut shot straight and told me that I shouldn't give him pot odds /images/graemlins/ooo.gif!

sputum

05-05-2007, 07:48 AM

Reraise him on the turn. Can't comment much more without stack sizes. But reraise him on the turn regardless.
Oh. And the flop. Reraise him on the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to do against these calling stations anymore

[/ QUOTE ]
Get lots of their money in the pot before they suck out /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
But seriously, you ABSOLUTELY MUST reraise that turn.

sputum

05-05-2007, 08:03 AM

Maybe this will also be helpful.
You charged him peanuts on the turn. If he calls there and the river is as played you charged him 36 cents to hit his 1 in 4 ish shot (brain unreliable at the mo /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) and he made around 4 bucks on it. So he is getting 10-1 (ish)implied odds on his draw. You set him those odds. The dimwit even gave you a chance to reconsider with his stupid minraise. YOU gave him a bargain and HE halved the benefit of it /images/graemlins/grin.gif Now consider how much you would have called on a spade/str8 river. How much does he raise before you decide not to call? Maybe it was all-in, idk without stack sizes but it's a good exercise anyway for those time you are playing deeper-stacked. Would you call a $6 raise if it were possible? If so you would have given him even more of a bargain.

sputum

05-05-2007, 08:21 AM

This is my favourite hand for showing IO in action. BB flopped two pair and checkraised big. I knew he had the goods and if I hit his stack was mine. He complained about my poor play (calling a PSB with a straight draw etc) but he gave me odds of 10-1+ on my draw.

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($5, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $1.7, Hero calls, CO calls, SB folds, BB raises to $10, UTG folds, Hero calls, CO folds.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($28.4, 2 players)
BB bets $25, Hero raises to $75, BB raises to $125, Hero calls all-in $7.6.
Uncalled bets: $42.4 returned to BB.

River: 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($193.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $193.6)

Results:
Final pot: $193.6

JH1

05-05-2007, 01:31 PM

Thanks for the advice guys. I suppose I should have given a little more info: stack sizes were around $4-$5 each. This guy was 55/2/3. I'm 16/6/2. I guess that flop re-raise on me really threw me off because I put him on Kx as this was typical of his TP weak kicker play(ie. did not think he had a flush draw) and thought that he put me on the flush draw. So I really didn't consider that he was playing implied odds here but rather trying to get me out.

I honestly find the whole implied odds to be more gamble than anything because it's mostly guess work for me anyway, so I don't use them a whole lot myself unless I'm playing a super LAG, deep stacked, or have played a few hundred hands with that player. Sometimes it's obvious though, like in the hand that you showed Sputum. But what if he doesn't go all in and folds instead when you hit your card and you're wrong about your IO? I'm seriously just asking cause I don't play IO very well.

But anyways, he's got 8 outs on the flop (he thinks 9)giving him 1:3 and I throw in a 3/4 pot bet. He improves to 1 outs on the turn giving him just under 1:4 (you are correct), and I bet 1/2 the pot which you are also correct, I should have bet more.

If his implied odds are for my whole stack, for argument's sake, what do I bet on the turn to make it incorrect for him to call? Pot plus 1/4 of my stack, or just push? I'm starting to think that if I'm getting this kind of resistance by the turn with trips or even two pair I should just start pushing to take down the pot right there.

I'm reluctant to push on the flop even though I'm a big favorite just because there are two many times that I'm sucked out on for my comfort, and at the same time I don't want to be bluffed out of every three-flushed board.

I suppose the proper answer is just more aggression on the flop and a lot more on the turn. Any more advice would be great! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

JH1

05-05-2007, 01:46 PM

So what we're basically saying here is that if you're behind and would have the nuts if you hit your card, play IO. If you're leading play PO plus the other guy's IO.

???

sputum

05-05-2007, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice guys. I suppose I should have given a little more info: stack sizes were around $4-$5 each. This guy was 55/2/3. I'm 16/6/2. I guess that flop re-raise on me really threw me off because I put him on Kx as this was typical of his TP weak kicker play(ie. did not think he had a flush draw) and thought that he put me on the flush draw. So I really didn't consider that he was playing implied odds here but rather trying to get me out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't get frozen by a raise. And that 55 includes a lot of suited hands. He could have a huge variety of cards, he is in position (ie acting after you) while that flop call isn't nearly as bad IMO as the turn call I'd reraise it there.
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly find the whole implied odds to be more gamble than anything because it's mostly guess work for me anyway, so I don't use them a whole lot myself unless I'm playing a super LAG, deep stacked, or have played a few hundred hands with that player. Sometimes it's obvious though, like in the hand that you showed Sputum. But what if he doesn't go all in and folds instead when you hit your card and you're wrong about your IO? I'm seriously just asking cause I don't play IO very well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Estimating your IO can be tricky. Estimating your opponents IO is pretty simple. How much will you put in this pot by the river? There's your answer. Work out how much you should bet to deny sufficient IO or how soon you will bail on your hand etc. Yes this gets difficult with hand ranges and so forth but in this case you are well ahead and any money that goes in before he hits is mostly yours.
Once you are comfortable not leaking in IO situations (it's only one factor in a poker hand, but it's pretty huge) turn it round, get a feel for how much you can get when your draw hits (not forgetting redraws - my opponent in the hand above has a redraw to a boat) and you're away.
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If his implied odds are for my whole stack, for argument's sake, what do I bet on the turn to make it incorrect for him to call?

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There is 0.64 in there and you got $4 left each say. If he's 4-1 against hitting, say you bet pot. He's getting 2-1 express odds plus your last 3.36 giving him better than 7-1 (hopefully /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). A buck gives him 4.64-1. This means that in order to protect your set from a FD you need 4.64/x < 4 (I think) or a buck sixteen.
Try it out: 4 out of 5 times he folds the river, once he gets your stack. Actually I'm not sure of the exact numbers but it's close enough for discussion. This does NOT mean it is right to bet a buck sixteen, it is only an indicator. You cannot put him on solely a flush draw and if you could IO would be done because you would fold a spade river.
What this shows (roughly) is ONE reason to get money in the pot early. Bet pot on the flop and 3-bet his minraise and the pot swells with money from your stacks, making expressed odds larger and implied ones smaller in a pot you will win most of the time.

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Pot plus 1/4 of my stack, or just push? I'm starting to think that if I'm getting this kind of resistance by the turn with trips or even two pair I should just start pushing to take down the pot right there.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have second set and should be the one putting in the last bet.
IO are very important here exactly because your hand is so strong and you are not going to fold it. Hey the guy may stack off with a King. It's not unheard of /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I'm reluctant to push on the flop even though I'm a big favorite just because there are two many times that I'm sucked out on for my comfort, and at the same time I don't want to be bluffed out of every three-flushed board.

[/ QUOTE ]
No need to necessarily push on the flop unless you think he'll call (which would be GREAT) but you have to bet again.
[ QUOTE ]
I suppose the proper answer is just more aggression on the flop and a lot more on the turn. Any more advice would be great!

[/ QUOTE ]
Bet your sets is the advice I would give. I was a little disconcerted that you originally thought villain had played badly and got lucky. Maybe he did play badly, but his play was profitable because you let him off the hook.
[ QUOTE ]
So what we're basically saying here is that if you're behind and would have the nuts if you hit your card, play IO. If you're leading play PO plus the other guy's IO.

???

[/ QUOTE ]
Pot odds in the early rounds of limped pots are of relatively little importance. There is relatively little out there and your stack is more important than the pot. This means that you have to fold some good hands on later rounds (obv not this one /images/graemlins/wink.gif) But not betting a big hand strongly opens you up to this. You had a set, the guy raised your bets twice with nothing and yet less than half your stack is in the pot by the river.

Once you get the hang of it it'll end up as second nature.
IO aside, you really want to keep betting the best hand until you can't anymore.

illph

05-05-2007, 05:13 PM

I'm probably overbetting the turn a lot after the minraise because in 5nl that shows (imo) that they love their hand very much most of the time.

JH1

05-05-2007, 06:18 PM

Thanks again everyone for the great advice, especially Sputum. That last post you made really made it click for me regarding implied odds. I think that I revealed my true donkishness in my last post and I never really understood how implied odds could be sustainable in the long run until now. I feel ten times more confident already and I haven't even played a hand today.

The predicament that I was in was that I started playing on SnG's and continued to play that way (knockout) when I play ring. I would grind away forever with top pair or two pair and I would fold spec hands right away. After I had made a bit of profit or doubled up, someone I thought was a jackass would come along and take my profit AND my buyin by not playing "properly", when they were really doing what you just described. Now I can be that jackass! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

czGLoRy

05-05-2007, 06:21 PM

you were being raised? RE-RAISE HIM! He re re raises? Go all in! You have a set on a drawy board hes raising for a free card. you gotta punish him to draw, you cant just bet call