50NL - a rare c/r from me on a fellow 2+2

[Kasane]

After almost removing the c/r from my arsenal, I've been looking for places to put it back in. This came up and I thought I'd give it a try. Ignore PF -- SB was a big fish and I was willing to see a flop with this.

What's your turn move here? I've been called, which I think means that he has an overpair. I think he pushes just about any J. I think Acxc is also a push for villain. Of course, if he flopped the boat I'm dead.

I've picked up a couple more outs -- but I honestly didn't think I'd be called on that flop. If he has the overpair, he's committed to a blank flush turn and I have no FE. Only a push or a chk makes sense.

Comments on the flop play are welcome as well. "Villain" and I have been discussing this hand and he might chime in.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $46.65
<font color="black">BB: $58.30</font>
UTG: $94.05
MP: $48.50
CO: $115
BTN: $56.10

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt 9/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $2</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.50

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($6) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $4.50</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG calls $10.50

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($36) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
Hero ...

[Dunkman]

Ignoring PF...

I don't really like the c/r on the flop. The paired board is obviously a factor, but by far the main one is your stack size. It's going all in on the turn once he calls that raise, unless he checks behind on the turn...I don't think you're getting a free card very often. You may have some FE on the turn (he could call there with some hands intending to fold to a turn push), but probably not enough to make pushing profitable. I'd much prefer calling the flop bet and leading the turn. He needs a really great hand to raise that turn bet, and you get to set your price. Also, with that line his flop bet could just be a cbet with a whiffed hand, so in addition to having better implied odds and setting a lower price on the turn, you also have substantially more FE.

edit: oh yeah, as played, I check and fold to a turn push. I'm not at all sure that checking is better than just pushing the turn (both are going to result in you losing substantially on this hand) but that's what I'd do in this spot I think.

[Lurker.]

i hate it.
fold pf (couldnt help it)
fold flop.
as played c/f.
Look to c/r dryer flops that more than likely missed the villain. Also don't c/r when there is someone left to act behind you.

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
i hate it.
fold pf (couldnt help it)
fold flop.
as played c/f.
Look to c/r dryer flops that more than likely missed the villain. Also don't c/r when there is someone left to act behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious as to why you wanna fold the flop...board is super dry, a large percentage of the time his flop bet is just a cbet with A high or a medium pair. I think we have a good chance to steal the pot on the turn, plus the nice draw. What am I missing?

[Lurker.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate it.
fold pf (couldnt help it)
fold flop.
as played c/f.
Look to c/r dryer flops that more than likely missed the villain. Also don't c/r when there is someone left to act behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious as to why you wanna fold the flop...board is super dry, a large percentage of the time his flop bet is just a cbet with A high or a medium pair. I think we have a good chance to steal the pot on the turn, plus the nice draw. What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]
we could be drawing dead (very unlikely i know). Even if we hit our flush, the board can still double pair and force us to often fold. Even if we turn a flush, a river club could also lose us a ton of money (if the villain has A /images/graemlins/club.gif). Maybe i'm being too nitty folding this flop, thoughts from others(and you too on my thoughts)?

[Dunkman]

Oh yeah, the line I'm talking about is a c/c flop then lead turn. We're in perfect agreement that a flop c/r is really bad.

This line is a J quite often, and he knows it. Obviously it's not going to work if he has a J himself or QQ or something. We pick off all the cbets and middle pocket pairs, as there's no way they can stay in. We prevent a second barrel from him, and put immense pressure on hands as good as KK and AA, since they have to really fear a jack from us.

I too would like to hear other thoughts, as my ~90% rate of being totally wrong about this stuff is always in effect.

[Kasane]

[ QUOTE ]

Look to c/r dryer flops that more than likely missed the villain. Also don't c/r when there is someone left to act behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking to c/r many flops, and almost never to a UTG raise. A broadway paired board is scaaary to the right thinking villain -- and that's what makes this hand interesting to me. I know villain is a thinking player. He knows SB is a donk, too. Once donk folds, I'm going to be folding out that on the weak side c-bet a lot. There's no one left to act behind me.

I'm not saying I don't hate the c/r myself. It got me into a position I didn't like. I'm not folding this flop once I've actually hit a good flop for my original pf call. PF is an obvious "mistake" - but it one of those pf mistakes I think you're supposed to make when you've got someone like SB in.

[SirFelixCat]

Personally, I don't like the C/R here. I think the scarier line is c/c flop, lead the turn. That is terrifying for villain here, unless he has a J. With the line that OP took, this very well could be a draw and a thinking villain would know this. I think if he (villain) calls the c/r, it puts all the pressure back onto OP who then HAS to fire a second barrel in order to rep the J and even then, hates it if villain comes over the top. Just a horrid spot that OP put himself in here, on the flop. Had he c/c flop and leads the turn, OP would take control of the hand and fold out most mid-pairs as well as bricked AK etc.

The c/r has put OP in a spot where now, he has all the pressure on himself to lead the turn, risking to commit himself w/ only a nekkid draw, or giving up and checking, figuring villain could/should bet the turn and leaving OP ugh....

[renotime]

checks and then folds to a bet

[SirFelixCat]

I'll post the hand from villain's stand point once a few more posts are made, btw....

[czGLoRy]

don't like the call preflop, your probably dominated or at best live and an underdog. Fold preflop.

I think your play is fine on the flop, but since he calls, hes screaming hes got ya crushed. gotta check / fold on turn IMO beause theres almost no chance your good, and you probably cant take a free turn card (or a cheap one either way).

[Kasane]

[ QUOTE ]
don't like the call preflop, your probably dominated or at best live and an underdog. Fold preflop.

I think your play is fine on the flop, but since he calls, hes screaming hes got ya crushed. gotta check / fold on turn IMO beause theres almost no chance your good, and you probably cant take a free turn card (or a cheap one either way).

[/ QUOTE ]

I gotta disagree on the PF. It's -EV in isolation, but SB was a huuuuge calling station donk. I'm not going busto on a K high flop against UTG. I think UTG will back me up on this one. It's a table dynamics thing, and why I said it's ignorable. I think the thing we're missing so often in these discussions is that we have to get our money in bad when it's cheap sometimes. Just don't do it when it's expensive. I've got position on our real live one at the table, I'm going to see a lot of flops when I do with marginal hands. I'm never calling this unless HU against villain.

Turn went chk/chk. Huh? Villain really confused me there.

River 7d (blank) We've got a psb left.

I think I'm going to shift to c/c flop and maybe donk turn. Scary line, but it really doesn't save me much over the c/r and doesn't have the FE -- and it lets villain catch something sometimes.

[Pirelli]

I really don't like this in this spot. I think the problem is that villain is a thinking player, so knows you can do this with much more than a Jack.

Also, villain's range loves this flop so I don't think it's the best time to get fancy, especially since he knows there aren't too many hands with a jack that you would call with PF.

You have to check the turn here, and fold to any reasonable bet pretty much. The action going check, check doesn't surprise me, but even if you make your flush on the river, I wouldn't go nuts because you very well may still be behind.

I hate playing draws OOP for this exact reason, even if you make your draw it's very difficult to extract value.

[Isura]

All-in. Great card for you and have to expect to keep the pressure on after c/r the flop. But I would not c/r here. I prefer just leading out.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
All-in. Great card for you and have to expect to keep the pressure on after c/r the flop. But I would not c/r here. I prefer just leading out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isura, could you explain your thoughts when your choosing between c/c, c/r, and b3b with draws like this?

[Lurker.]

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[ QUOTE ]

Look to c/r dryer flops that more than likely missed the villain. Also don't c/r when there is someone left to act behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking to c/r many flops, and almost never to a UTG raise. A broadway paired board is scaaary to the right thinking villain -- and that's what makes this hand interesting to me. I know villain is a thinking player. He knows SB is a donk, too. Once donk folds, I'm going to be folding out that on the weak side c-bet a lot. There's no one left to act behind me.

I'm not saying I don't hate the c/r myself. It got me into a position I didn't like. I'm not folding this flop once I've actually hit a good flop for my original pf call. PF is an obvious "mistake" - but it one of those pf mistakes I think you're supposed to make when you've got someone like SB in.

[/ QUOTE ]
c/ring flops is a great way to pick off a ton of cbets. it's a great play to incorporate into your game if you can use it properly.