50NL: Wtf at river raise, help

[PJo336]

I have to bet for value on the river with the blank right?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
5 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

SB: $19
<font color="black">BB: $94.60</font>
UTG: $58.30
<font color="black">Hero (CO): $39.75</font>
BTN: $31.30

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt T/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.50</font>, 2 folds, BB calls $1

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($3.25) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $2</font>, BB calls $2

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($7.25) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks

<font color="black">River:</font> ($7.25) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $25</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $21 returned to BB

Pot Size: $15.25 ($0.75 Rake)

[wildzer0]

Reads? Against an unknown I would tend to bet the turn, check behind on the river.

[PJo336]

what if he were to do this on the turn? Muck obvi correct?

[limit refugee]

Samey same. I bet the turn too, and easy mucker to similar action.

As played river bet is right...

[PJo336]

What makes you bet the turn against an unknown? which villian was. I like to contain pot size with such a cruddy kicker

[ButItWasSuited]

Bet the turn and fold to a raise. Then check behind on the river unless he's a massive fish.

Also, raise more preflop.

[spacetime]

I think you should be betting the turn here with plan of checking the river

[tannenj]

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Against an unknown I would tend to bet the turn, check behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[PJo336]

My styles always been bet flop, check turn, bet river. Is that horribly wrong? If so, why? Im talking about without a real drawy flop. Obvi if I think hes on a draw ill make him pay for it, but here it didnt seem like it, so why throw more money down the drain on the turn?

[creamfillin]

I would just let it go because this hand can't stand that big of a raise, and the pot was pretty small. The weird thing about it is that I can't see villain checking this river with a big hand if you've seemed to give up on the turn. It's such a big over bet too, kind of sick.

[tannenj]

[ QUOTE ]
My styles always been bet flop, check turn, bet river. Is that horribly wrong? If so, why? Im talking about without a real drawy flop. Obvi if I think hes on a draw ill make him pay for it, but here it didnt seem like it, so why throw more money down the drain on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think your play is fine in this hand (you have to bet the river, and once you do you have to fold to the raise). i prefer betting the turn because the turn card brings a [censored]-ton of draws.

[PJo336]

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My styles always been bet flop, check turn, bet river. Is that horribly wrong? If so, why? Im talking about without a real drawy flop. Obvi if I think hes on a draw ill make him pay for it, but here it didnt seem like it, so why throw more money down the drain on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think your play is fine in this hand (you have to bet the river, and once you do you have to fold to the raise). i prefer betting the turn because the turn card brings a [censored]-ton of draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesnt really bring any. Yeh, theres now a flush draw, but you cant worry EVERY TIME there are 2 of one suit on the board. Why would he have a FD there? sure it could happen but so rare im not gonna dictate diff play based on it. Also, it either completed his str8 or it didnt, it didnt make a new str8 draw. So why bet into a possible Q 10 when I could check, and keep the pot small enuff to value bet the river?

[PJo336]

unless of course he had a pair and then picked up the draw, hmmm, why no bet then? Blah donks, i so got overbet by total air or total nuttage (Q10)

[PJo336]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just let it go because this hand can't stand that big of a raise, and the pot was pretty small. The weird thing about it is that I can't see villain checking this river with a big hand if you've seemed to give up on the turn. It's such a big over bet too, kind of sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its very sick, i nearly threw up just because i wanted to see his hole cards sooooooo bad

[tannenj]

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My styles always been bet flop, check turn, bet river. Is that horribly wrong? If so, why? Im talking about without a real drawy flop. Obvi if I think hes on a draw ill make him pay for it, but here it didnt seem like it, so why throw more money down the drain on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think your play is fine in this hand (you have to bet the river, and once you do you have to fold to the raise). i prefer betting the turn because the turn card brings a [censored]-ton of draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesnt really bring any.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just flat wrong. i didn't say he HAS clubs, but there's now a club draw. and there are three to a straight, too -- if a T or a Q comes, he's much less likely to call a river bet.

it's not always about "protecting" your hand. it's about getting value. many river cards make it less likely that you'll get value.

[mrw8419]

I like your line, but I'm having a lot of trouble putting villain on a good hand. His line is very fancy for a typical 50nl player and his hand doesn't look particularly good If he is a good aggressive tag I'd almost be tempted to call this as your hand looks like a weak 1 pair.

I've found I get more value from my weaker 1 pair hands from the check turn bet/call river, than protecting my hand with a turn bet.

[PJo336]

i agree, thats exactly what i mean, plus you get crying calls on the river bet based on the check on the turn making u look weak

[C4LL4W4Y]

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My styles always been bet flop, check turn, bet river. Is that horribly wrong? If so, why? Im talking about without a real drawy flop. Obvi if I think hes on a draw ill make him pay for it, but here it didnt seem like it, so why throw more money down the drain on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think your play is fine in this hand (you have to bet the river, and once you do you have to fold to the raise). i prefer betting the turn because the turn card brings a [censored]-ton of draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesnt really bring any.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just flat wrong. i didn't say he HAS clubs, but there's now a club draw. and there are three to a straight, too -- if a T or a Q comes, he's much less likely to call a river bet.

it's not always about "protecting" your hand. it's about getting value. many river cards make it less likely that you'll get value.

[/ QUOTE ]

[PJo336]

Im no math major, but both seem to have an oppurtunity to be +EV. Anyone feel bored enough to take a shot at EV calculations? NO? me niether

[mrw8419]

[ QUOTE ]

this is just flat wrong. i didn't say he HAS clubs, but there's now a club draw. and there are three to a straight, too -- if a T or a Q comes, he's much less likely to call a river bet.

it's not always about "protecting" your hand. it's about getting value. many river cards make it less likely that you'll get value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree you shouldn't be enlarging the pot with weak top pair hands for value. What happens when you bet the turn villain calls then donks into you for 1/2-3/4 pot. Now you've put yourself in a difficult spot in a larger than necessary pot. While betting might be slight more +ev on the turn, it saves you from making a larger -ev decision on the river.

[PJo336]

I think the whole idea is very board dependent, i just feel a checked turn and river bet is more +EV in THIS hand.

[tannenj]

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this is just flat wrong. i didn't say he HAS clubs, but there's now a club draw. and there are three to a straight, too -- if a T or a Q comes, he's much less likely to call a river bet.

it's not always about "protecting" your hand. it's about getting value. many river cards make it less likely that you'll get value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree you shouldn't be enlarging the pot with weak top pair hands for value. What happens when you bet the turn villain calls then donks into you for 1/2-3/4 pot. Now you've put yourself in a difficult spot in a larger than necessary pot. While betting might be slight more +ev on the turn, it saves you from making a larger -ev decision on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf? say he checks the river, are you value betting? i sure as hell hope so. what happens when he raises your value bet? are you going to say, "oops, guess i should've checked behind."

the turn is a bet in this hand.

[PJo336]

haha i DID say that hahahahah

[mrw8419]

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wtf? say he checks the river, are you value betting? i sure as hell hope so. what happens when he raises your value bet? are you going to say, "oops, guess i should've checked behind."

the turn is a bet in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The river is an easy bet if checked to if you checked the turn. Like I said betting the turn is +ev, but I believe it leads to a larger -ev situation on the river way too often. There are some boards where I will be happier to two barrel with one pair weak kicker, but this is not one of them.