No loose "Small Stakes Hold'em" games online

[BarbarianX]

I checked it out tonight, the flop percentage at Paradise, Pacific, UB, Crypto, Prima and Poker Room sites was very low (couldn't count Party Poker of course and the 8 and 9 full tables sites like Stars and Tribeca I didn't include). These are the figures:

2/4$ 10-table:
31, 34, 27, 56, 39, 37, 41, 29, 34, 31, 32, 29, 35, 37, 22, 27, 30, 27, 27, 27, 28, 29, 29, 26

Pacific had the highest average % of people seeing the flop (above 40%) and Poker Room the lowest (below 30%).

An interesting discovery I made: If you exclude Pacific it wasn't any significant difference between high and low stakes tables, they all seemed to have around 30%.

Does anyone now if Party Poker is much looser at small stakes (2/4 and 3/6)? I don't believe so, and if it's almost the same Miller, Sklansky and Malmuth should add to the next edition of SSH: Loose games (6-8 players seeing the flop) does not exist online!

[Lawman]

So use the tight starting hand guidelines (3 to 5) and a bit of common sense. Three things: (i) however good SSHE is, it is not a complete poker education, (ii) like all good teachers, SSHE is supposed to make you think. If you understand why certain hands/plays are good 6-8 multiway you should be able to work out what to do when it tightens up, and (iii) it is not (specifically) a "How to play online" book.

Don't join the "SSHE is rubbish because there isn't a Chapter called 'How to Play on Empire on a Weekday Afternoon when the Players aren't as Bad as you Normally Expect'" bandwagon!!

If you haven't already, get HEPFAP and TOP. One other point to bear in mind is that your stats hide a lot of variation. In my (relatively limited) experience I've noticed that there is a reasonable turnover of players over short periods of time and there can still be a number of 35%+ VPIP players at a table (admittedly I have never played higher than 1/2, but the numbers you post are very similar to Prima and Paradise at that level). In other words the nature of the game does fluctuate. In fact, as I move from "novice" to "eager improver" I find it more useful not to generalise too much and look at how people actually play - so no more than 2 tables for me.

[BarbarianX]

I love the book. My point is just there must be an incredible difference between live and online play.

[Lawman]

Agreed there. Never played live myself. Limit is not really played in the UK.

Seem to remember reading somewhere that for an equivalent B&M game you multiply the online stakes by up to 10x.

[sarsen]

Well, some of the micro limit games ie 0.05/0.10 and below on stars regularly feature 6-7 players to see the flop, lots of calling stations. A staple of these games is the river suckout. at 0.10/0.20 up to 0.50/1 there seem to be between 3-5 to the flop.

[BarbarianX]

I wouln't be surprised... :P

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
I love the book. My point is just there must be an incredible difference between live and online play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're quite correct there. Quite possibly the flop seen percentage is higher at the Bellagio 40/80 games on a Friday night than they ever are at the Party 3/6 tables.

Action junkies can play so much tighter online by multitabling. Even without multitabling you get to play about twice as many hands in an hour online compared to live.

Probably alot less drunks playing online as well. No one is going to give you a hard time for being totally sober, and if someone is nagging you about being tight it's easy to ignore them in the tiny chat box. Live there is more pressure to play more hands.

You also meet profitable (semi) pros at significantly lower stakes online than you ever do live. You're not going to meet anyone making a living off poker below 20/40 live, but you're going to share your table with 1-4 of them at any given 3/6 table on Party.

[fep]

I wouldn't trust the Pacific flop percentages. I've tracked # of players that saw the flop for about 100 hands in a row at Pacific. My average was siginificantly lower than Pacific no matter if I averaged the last 10, 20, 30,...100 hands.

[Rudbaeck]

Pacific flop averages are over the last 24 hours or some such silliness. It means that the table was shorthanded for a part of that period. Most sites use a significantly shorter time span for averages, like an hour or something.

[BarbarianX]

Didn't know that, thanx for the info. Still think the games are looser, at least I know from experience that the Omaha games are crazy.

[KinkyKid]

Skimmed the rest of the responses. SSHE includes starting hands charts for tighter tables. Additionally, the post flop play can typically be adjusted for all types of conditions. Its the only book I've read this far (starting TOP now) and I play UB .5/1 & 1/2 full ring and 6-max, as well as reading these forums. Other than a downswing I'm doing fine.

[MicroBob]

Live 3/6 and 4/8 very much fits the loose-table criteria much of the time.
Yes...5 or more players to every flop.


I think multiplying by 5x is a bit more accurate. (party 2/4 plays similarly to many live 10/20 games).

But 10x isn't out of the question on the right nights.
The 20/40 with kill (meaning some hands are doubled to 40/80) at the Horseshoe in Tunica, Mississippi is known to be insanely loose and probably approaching online .5/1 status sometimes.

[MRBAA]

The loose games described in SSHE do not match the 2-4 games on Party. They often do match the live 5-10 and thereabouts games I've occaisonally played during visits to Northern California.

[MadMat]

Look around the less mainstream sites especially sites linked to casinos/sports books, with no pokertracker support etc. Don't be blinded by the "Party is where all the fish are" mantra you see all over 2+2
You can often find a table or two of 2/4 or 3/6 that plays exactly like the SSH loose games at these sort of sites.

Mat

[SlantNGo]

Go to the 6-max tables... you'll find more players to a flop there (players, not percentage)!

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
2/4$ 10-table:
31, 34, 27, 56, 39, 37, 41, 29, 34, 31, 32, 29, 35, 37, 22, 27, 30, 27, 27, 27, 28, 29, 29, 26


[/ QUOTE ]

Half of these are great games(seriously *based on flop% alone, that is). Only 1 really looks bad. I play often in games around 29% and still use alot of the concepts in SSHE.

Study more about preflop in tighter games and you should do fine if you play postflop decent. Study the preflop concepts in HEPFAP.

b

[MRBAA]

56?

[smbruin22]

[ QUOTE ]
Look around the less mainstream sites especially sites linked to casinos/sports books, with no pokertracker support etc. Don't be blinded by the "Party is where all the fish are" mantra you see all over 2+2
You can often find a table or two of 2/4 or 3/6 that plays exactly like the SSH loose games at these sort of sites.


[/ QUOTE ]

i agree totally on both points (maybe not later point though).

but sportsbook sites with no pokertracker (canbet is one).

and my limited experience at party was that it was fairly tight.

i think the 3 to 5 seeing flop tight table in SSHE covers too much terrain. if you are playing in an under 35% pre-flop game, i think you need a completely different mindset.

i don't think you find too many 6-8 (closer to 8) games out there anymore anywhere. i think the fish eventually realize maybe they are playing too many hands and somewhat realize that UTG and next few spots are very bad.

and i would focus on post-flop.... although preflop is so easy to get right, make sure you master it at a minimum.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't trust the Pacific flop percentages. I've tracked # of players that saw the flop for about 100 hands in a row at Pacific. My average was siginificantly lower than Pacific no matter if I averaged the last 10, 20, 30,...100 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe them if the site's approach hasn't changed. It's hard to get good cards there if you play tight.