NL25: Botched 77 hand

[ciro bonano]

I messed this one up, I think.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed)

Hero ($53.78)
BB ($26.65)
UTG ($21.88)
MP ($15.20)
CO ($24.80)
Button ($16.52)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $0.7</font>, Hero calls $0.55, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.45.

Flop: ($2.35) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, MP calls $2, Button folds.
<font color="blue">I called preflop mainly for set value, but with a flop this nice, I feel I have to take a stab at it. This bet okay? </font>


Turn: ($6.35) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, MP calls $4.
<font color="blue">With the preflop raiser gone, I decided to fire another barrel, but I'm not to sure about this anymore.</font>


River: ($14.35) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $8.9 and is all-in</font>, Hero folds.
<font color="blue">Okay, time to cut my losses.</font>

Final Pot: $13.55

[Roger Mainfield]

I would give up after the flop. MP's flop call indicated a lot of strength, you raise utg and he calls with the preflop raiser yet to act. I could see him calling on the turn because he doesn't want to scare you off, and there aren't many draws to protect against. I would give him a range of 22,44,99 easy, as well as 56 sometimes and maybe a badly played A9. If he is a donk then overpairs and weird 2 pairs also.

[xPeru]

I like a check raise on this flop. A call or re-raise and you know you're done with the hand. Not a great flop for you, coz it sucks you in to another bet even though you missed your set. What you want to avoid is having to put any money in after the flop without knowing whether your hand is good. Any thoughts?

[bozzer]

flop is ok, but call from the non-PFR means strength, so i give up on the turn.

the problem with flop bet is that it's fairly transparent: something like A9, TT or 88-66. I wouldn't do it against thinking opponents.

[ciro bonano]

[ QUOTE ]
flop is ok, but call from the non-PFR means strength, so i give up on the turn. the problem with flop bet is that it's fairly transparent: something like A9, TT or 88-66. I wouldn't do it against thinking opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks, one of things I need to remember while playing NL, because I come from limit, is that a call also can mean strength /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I now also understand the flop bet to be transparent, but how else can I play this? I don't want the pfr to be able to take a free card with AK etc or cbet this flop and putting me into a difficult position.

[PoliticalRefugee]

Sorry but why is the flop bet transpaprent? If the flop comes 279 I'm betting $2 as well in the hope of action

[bozzer]

i dunno, it really depends how much he raises preflop --&gt; how likely he is to have an overpair to your hand.

if he raises a lot and cbets a lot, a check raise would be a decent option. don't worry tooo much about giving a free card - this hand isn't life or death for you.

leading out is fine against bad players, but is exploitable. OOP vs thinking opponents you have to fold this or make a read and go to war.

EDIT: 99, 22, 44 vs A9 (~3x more likely than PP), TT, 66, 77, 88 = 1:2. if i am the button and raise i have something like a 66% chance of taking it down. (very rough calculation obv. feel free to correct with more precise working.)

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but why is the flop bet transpaprent? If the flop comes 279 I'm betting $2 as well in the hope of action

[/ QUOTE ]

This flop bet is transparent for the very reason that you lead when you hit your set, it's well disguised.

[Genz]

Hm. With a flop this dry you have to ask yourself what villain might be calling with. But a lot of people will take one card off with high cards because they think you are just stabbing because the board is so low. So I do not hate the 2nd barrel since you could easily have the best hand here and the turn card is a total blank. But when he calls again, you need to get away from the hand. Since it is not the raiser who calls you but someone else, giving up on the turn is good too.

[ciro bonano]

[ QUOTE ]
if he raises a lot and cbets a lot, a check raise would be a decent option.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought about that too, but also didn't really like it. Suppose the action went
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $2</font>, Hero...

I have to raise to about $6-$8 for a credible check/raise, right? But if my c/r does get called I'm probably shutting down and c/f'ding to the river, so I'm basically* turning my hand into a bluff, right?


* except for the times he has AK etc and calls my c/r and is nice enough to check it down

[ QUOTE ]
don't worry tooo much about giving a free card - this hand isn't life or death for you.

[/ QUOTE ]That's a good point too, I'll think a bit about this one.

[PoliticalRefugee]

Firstly I have a feeling that we're on a different wavelength. I take transparency to mean that it's obvious what our cards/range is. But I was saying why? because an overpair/set would be played this way (by me). Although I would probably raise an overpair preflop.

Also without reads or a histiry with villain there's really nothing we're beating even if he's sticking aroun with 9T so I shut down on the turn and hope it gets checked to showdown where he flops over AJ or something like that.

[Dastone]

Yes, but the flop isn't 972, and we don't want action. Since we aren't going to be 3 betting here it doesn't make much difference IMO. I personally would prefer to check, but despite the somewhat tranparency of the play I still think it has merit.

[PoliticalRefugee]

But we bet 44 like this don't we. I can see how on the turn the hand becomes obvious if we check.

I think as the pots 3 way a check seems a sensible play.

Would you bet if it was heads up just versus the initial raiser if MP folded preflop?

[ciro bonano]

(about the transparency)

Well it helps me if I know that when you bet, you either have a set, a UI pocketpair or a overpair. So I'm easily folding my AK or other overcards instead of making a cbet. With my overpairs I can punish you and still not get stacked vs a set.

Anyway, this is the theory in limit poker, where it is an exception to donk into the preflop raiser (unless you want to donk/3bet), I'm still thinking what the best is in NL.

[Dastone]

Yes, I hope I'm understanding you correctly, but are you trying to rep a set here?

"Would you bet if it was heads up just versus the initial raiser if MP folded preflop?"

I'm 50/50 here. Sometimes I check, and other times I lead. I know that's not much help but it really would depend on history, and my read.

I'm personally not too worried about being super aggro post flop, and if I thought I had the best hand I would sometimes check/call the flop, but it would based on villain's tendancies, like if he were the type to shut down on the turn when called on the flop with missed overs I would just call. If villain was agressive, and would not slow down then I would likely check/raise to get a feel for where I stand, and try to take it down there.

[bozzer]

repeated from above:

"EDIT: 99, 22, 44 vs A9 (~3x more likely than PP), TT, 66, 77, 88 = 1:2. if i am the button and raise i have something like a 66% chance of taking it down. (very rough calculation obv. feel free to correct with more precise working.) "

basically the button would be right to assume you have a fairly brittle hand and would probably profit by raising you up or by calling and taking the pot away from you on later streets.

and then we get into meta considerations, but that's a different point.