NL25 Video From MSNLer

[IshiP2U]

If you search my posts you can find a post I made awhile ago about making an NL25 video, though I give a short introduction to myself in the video. I don't post here often, I just joined a little while, and I have mostly responded to some uNL posts, made a post or two in uNL for my friend, and posted a few hands of my own in MSNL. I thought making a video would be nice, and as somebody who wins at higher stakes playing 4-5 tables without a HUD I think I do have something to add. I do talk for about the first 5 or 6 minutes of the vid before I start playing. It isn't really a "how-to" on anything but more of a "how-I" on playing with players I am confident I can outplay. All feedback is welcomed, with the exception of things like "always fold KQ UTG", I'm not interested in hearing things like that. I'm planning on making a series if there is interest, and looking forward to discussing things with interested people. Let me know if you would like another one. The following link should work:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MEELPV8X

I made it using Camtasia, so perhaps you might have to download that if you'd like to watch it I don't know. Take care

Adam

[guitarizt]

I'd definitely be interested in a series, but you're gonna have to convert this to avi or something that people will be able to play in windows media player. No one will be able to open this file.

[IshiP2U]

Okay, it's perhaps going to seem kind of weird and wtf to many, which is the idea behind making it a series to flesh out the ideas....

[IshiP2U]

I'll do that in the future, can't ppl just dl camtasia tho?

It's really easy to download and install, and then you can make your own videos and watch yourself play after you're done!!

This took me 2 hours to upload so I'd rather not do it again this time.

[Sweir]

I doubt many people will watch this unless it is wmv. Camtasia doesn't work on my computer btw.

[Everlong]

getting the techsmith codec might help (if you get the codec you dont need camtasia)

http://download.techsmith.com/tscc/tscc.exe

edit: I didn't know i was a camrec file. Then you need camtasia I guess...

[Everlong]

Bumperidoo.

I watched or rather listened to the first 3-4 minutes but I gotta go get my son from kindergarten. You have my ear and I might produce it and rehost the .avi if you want a bit later today.

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumperidoo.

I watched or rather listened to the first 3-4 minutes but I gotta go get my son from kindergarten. You have my ear and I might produce it and rehost the .avi if you want a bit later today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do, Thanks.

[bozzer]

yeah please convert this. i'd like to watch it, but camtasia is no dice on my laptop.

[Everlong]

Wow

You have deffo not seen this style in any of the vids in the sticky...

[IshiP2U]

Everlong

Yeah I think after watching it you can understand why I think it would be more effective as a series, as it's almost impossible to give feedback based on watching this (other than understandably saying "wow you play bad that must've been a heater" etc....). Guess it doesn't do much for my credibility when the first hand at the table I raise AA so big that I know I won't get called because I think it's the last possible hand I want to actually showdown in that situation...did some of what I was saying seem interesting though? I was really kind of dissapointed with the lack of action, and honestly the superfish to my right was kind of the only bright spot at the table; I would've just left and gone to another one if he wasn't there.

[Everlong]

I am those guys you are trying to lure in so hell yes I am definately all ears and I think I have a vague concept of what you are trying to achieve.

There is basically always at least 2 players like this* scattered at the idk 6-8 tables I play and they are nightmares really. I either stack them or just keep getting more and more frustrated and stack off with weaker and weaker hands.

(*You know the guy who has J4 on the AJ4 board when you had enough of his raising and push AK...)

Vid is producing and should be up shortly.

[Everlong]

OK file put on a [censored] diet and rehosted (I messed up the vid aspect ratio somewhere along the way but you'll live)

xvid codec this time.

http://www.megaupload.com/se/?d=31OMHN7R

[masterSilviu]

I can't download it. Do I need an account on megaupload ?

[Gelford]

No just type the three letters in the box and then wait for the required 45 seconds or so.

[IshiP2U]

Hey thanks a lot for doing that, I'll make sure to get the next one right.

[Everlong]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey thanks a lot for doing that, I'll make sure to get the next one right.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are welcome

In one of the old microbrews Triggerle wrote a neato guide to making videos (compression bla bla etc etc). I'll see if I can find it.

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
OK file put on a [censored] diet and rehosted (I messed up the vid aspect ratio somewhere along the way but you'll live)

xvid codec this time.

http://www.megaupload.com/se/?d=31OMHN7R

[/ QUOTE ]

tyvm everlong, wow you cut down the file size a [censored] load. Watching now, will probably comment later.

[Civi]

Wow...I've just watched the start of the video. I will definitely be watching the rest when I get home from work!

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey thanks a lot for doing that, I'll make sure to get the next one right.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are welcome

In one of the old microbrews Triggerle wrote a neato guide to making videos (compression bla bla etc etc). I'll see if I can find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a little search and couldn't find teh guide.

This looks like an interesting different type of vid - I look forward to it -tks Mr MSNLer and everlong for packaging nice and accesible.

I will get round to watching it -I've got 3 already still to watch.

[JadeRedstone]

downloading the improved version now, lets hope this one works on a mac.

Downloaded to many vids that didn't

[JAgrazy]

just watched your video and your play is definetly different from the standard play, good read on the QT guy.

hope you put some more videos up man! kinda great!

[Dastone]

I tried downloading the video, and when it finished downloading all I got was audio on windows media player. Any suggestions? This is the second time this has happened to me. Help, please?

[Miraculix]

[ QUOTE ]
I tried downloading the video, and when it finished downloading all I got was audio on windows media player. Any suggestions? This is the second time this has happened to me. Help, please?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi.
I have a different problem. The picture has frozen on a showdown A3s v/s 68s. No moving pics and no sound, but the timebar is moving. Any ideas???

// M

[Everlong]

Get the xvid codec from http://www.xvid.org/

[JadeRedstone]

Wow. All I can say is wow.

Love your thoughts in the pre game section. this is what poker should be all about. Playing the players and not your cards.

I will defiantly watch any video you put out. Make sure Everlong compress them for you. Best quality video I'v seen here.

Will probably have to watch this 20 times before I begin to grasp it.
players like you are the one who take my stack most often.

Thanks for doing it, both of you.

[Mr_Pathetic]

Quick question on playing this way. I tried this on the NL 10 at full tilt a few months ago with about 30% of your thought process and 15 buyins. I got more then enough people playing back at me but since I suck I got stuck for 135 in two days due to my inferior ability to know whats what.
My question is this: How many buyins do you consider necessary to keep from losing your whole roll and tilting like a monkey once you are left with say <5 buyins. I am thinking something along the lines of 30-40 buyins and some superman thick skin for tilt control before I attempt this again.
I have always looked at playing poker as a game of context clues. Each decision put into context with all the contextual clues that have surfaced from all history with the players you are playing with which is sorta what you are doing in this video. I think the big difference here is you are actively building a clue base with intent rather then passively letting that clue base build then working off it.

Until then, grinding the stars NL 2 till I get a job and roll.

[limit refugee]

That was awesome, I felt freed just playing vicariously through you.

Definitely some big ideas (at least for my semi-nitty self) to chew on.

Did this style come out of a natural progression from a tighter game for you, or did you always play that way and just got better at it as you went along?

[Sweir]

No offence but there were some pretty horrible plays in there and you seem to have pretty big leaks in your game /images/graemlins/frown.gif

However I would be interested in seeing another video to see if that was just a one off.

[sputum]

Fantastic /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I will watch as many as you can produce. Props to Everlong for recoding. I may actually start playing *real* poker at last /images/graemlins/grin.gif
EDIT: Sweir, levelling? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[IshiP2U]

Sweir,

Yes! There are definitely some horrible plays! That's the point buddy! If you view poker as a game of winning pots then I'm probably the uNLer around since I'm playing to lose many of them. As for leaks I dunno pal, I did run at like 15PTBB/100 over about 30k hands playing this style at NL25 and NL50 before trying it at higher stakes. Lol @ feedback being "pretty horrible plays" though, nice way to facilitate discussion, though I can see how it can be like "wtf" and kind of hard to comment on. No it was not just a one off and this is not me saying this is way to play poker, as I said. This is "how-I" not a "how-to" and I definitely don't always play this style. No, this is not a one off, and this was actually the second take because the first take turned out to be 1 hr 40 mins long and the audio got out of sync, but I'm happy to post that one or edit it down. You'd really really like that one, as I stack off with 2nd pair no kicker as advertisement, then stack the same guy like 2 hands later, and get 300BB deep.

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
the first take turned out to be 1 hr 40 mins long and the audio got out of sync, but I'm happy to post that one or edit it down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes please.

[Gelford]

Lol ... I've watched this now.


I can't see any horrid plays actually, the horridness is 'only' against the very short stacks, but handvalues run close pf anyway, so at worst those are 1-2$ mistakes, and sinvce the shortstack will be covered they can still be stacked for all that is lost.


The morale of this vid is this.


The 'TAGs' at 25NL (and this actually means a lot of this forum tbh) are mindless. As said, they have their 'system', multitable and will not deviate from this system. It is what they believe is higher pokerunderstanding. (And that is why I might get yelled at when I open Q6s from the CO), so while I appreciate your attempt to open them up, it can be very very hard, tho not impossible.

Perhaps you should find one of these guys sit at several of his tables and donk it up.


So what is the most valueable lesson here ?


It is to target the singletablers, preferably on your right and gamble it up with them.

But OP has more reading skill than most at this level, still it is a healthy exercide and one I spent most of last month on (in the process dropping 4000$ ... do'h)


But dynamics, dynamics dynamics !!!!!!!!!!!!! can't be stressed enough.

[Everlong]

[ QUOTE ]
Sweir,

Yes! There are definitely some horrible plays! That's the point buddy! If you view poker as a game of winning pots then I'm probably the uNLer around since I'm playing to lose many of them. As for leaks I dunno pal, I did run at like 15PTBB/100 over about 30k hands playing this style at NL25 and NL50 before trying it at higher stakes. Lol @ feedback being "pretty horrible plays" though, nice way to facilitate discussion, though I can see how it can be like "wtf" and kind of hard to comment on. No it was not just a one off and this is not me saying this is way to play poker, as I said. This is "how-I" not a "how-to" and I definitely don't always play this style. No, this is not a one off, and this was actually the second take because the first take turned out to be 1 hr 40 mins long and the audio got out of sync, but I'm happy to post that one or edit it down. You'd really really like that one, as I stack off with 2nd pair no kicker as advertisement, then stack the same guy like 2 hands later, and get 300BB deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is this:

For those of us playing x tables and TAGish style these plays are just so off the wall that it is a bit hard to digest. I got inspired too and thought what the hell I'll give it a go for kicks.

I lost three buyins at NL25 in 6 minutes - I kid you not.

I'd love to see the other video and any more stuff you do.
Even if I might honestly never ever try this again it is very refreshing to see a whole different approach and take on what is the essentials of this game.

(Sidenote: after stacking off twice I turned on my HUD to compare my reads with the stats. Calling them reads is a [censored] joke. I have no clue...need to work on that obv...)

Keep em coming. I'll help if I can. Overall entertainment value alone is worth it.

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Sweir,

Yes! There are definitely some horrible plays! That's the point buddy! If you view poker as a game of winning pots then I'm probably the uNLer around since I'm playing to lose many of them. As for leaks I dunno pal, I did run at like 15PTBB/100 over about 30k hands playing this style at NL25 and NL50 before trying it at higher stakes. Lol @ feedback being "pretty horrible plays" though, nice way to facilitate discussion, though I can see how it can be like "wtf" and kind of hard to comment on. No it was not just a one off and this is not me saying this is way to play poker, as I said. This is "how-I" not a "how-to" and I definitely don't always play this style. No, this is not a one off, and this was actually the second take because the first take turned out to be 1 hr 40 mins long and the audio got out of sync, but I'm happy to post that one or edit it down. You'd really really like that one, as I stack off with 2nd pair no kicker as advertisement, then stack the same guy like 2 hands later, and get 300BB deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can prolly fix the audio problem if u host the other video.

[Waingro]

Def. interesting, but I am really looking forward to step two, "the revenge of the multi-tablig tags". That is the part I always mess up.

I think you really played an excellent read-based game, but why limp K4o in the CO?

[prodonkey]

Also.. if you really want people to play back at u.. sit at 50nl

[IshiP2U]

Certainly I'll make one at NL50 as well sometime in the future...as it is more fun then. I'll probably do one or two more at NL25 and then NL50 so that I can talk about playing reraised pots. I limped K4 in the CO because I thought the shortstacker would felt any piece of the flop (lucky me, that's what happened), I felt I had very good implied odds with that hand against that player by just limping.

[IshiP2U]

Also, somebody just told me the vid is at 1 hand behind the speech, is anybody else having problems with this?

[TilTandWiN]

HELP - I really want to watch - my computer has itunes, windows media player and real player but none of these work!

What do i do to get it to play? If you help, you are a god.

[Caeddyn]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, somebody just told me the vid is at 1 hand behind the speech, is anybody else having problems with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

The audio was fine when I watched it. BTW, nice video. I'd like to see the 1hr 40m video if you can host it.

[Tawbor]

Quick Time with xvid codec works perfectly.

Really interesting vid, would love to see more, especially when someone starts to play back. I try this and they show me the friggin nuts everytime.

[prodonkey]

audio was fine for me.. I just played the camrec file though since I have camtasia pro

[TheWorm967]

really like the video, lots of interesting ideas presented, I'm not sure i have the balls, or bankroll to pull it off but it sure looks fun.

[Dilznoofus]

Iship2u,

Definitely enjoyed this video, and would watch others in the future.

I turned my HUD off a few days ago and am going to play without it for a few thousand hands. Right now I am running super hot so there's no way to know whether turning off the HUD is making any difference, but I know I have burned a lot of money in the past making "reads" based on limited experience and misuse of stats.

[creamfillin]

I just went completely ape [censored] after I watched this video. It's been the first time I shoved with complete air in awhile. Thanks for this. I'm sure I'll regret watching it later.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
I just went completely ape [censored] after I watched this video. It's been the first time I shoved with complete air in awhile. Thanks for this. I'm sure I'll regret watching it later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall OP shoving with air at all during this video. In fact he didn't even semibluff raise the 2 or 3 times he had good draws. I was surprised at how he's being described from this video given that he only really got out of line preflop.

[creamfillin]

He didn't but he inspired inspired me to loosen up a bit. He plays alot looser than your standard 2p2er at unl, and I guess I took it too far. (Coupled with the fact that I was half tilting from stupid sngs)

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Iship2u,

Definitely enjoyed this video, and would watch others in the future.

I turned my HUD off a few days ago and am going to play without it for a few thousand hands. Right now I am running super hot so there's no way to know whether turning off the HUD is making any difference, but I know I have burned a lot of money in the past making "reads" based on limited experience and misuse of stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frankly I do this a ton.. even the donkeys get big hands sometimes.

[Mr_Pathetic]

After watching again it seems he is super loose when he is putting the money in (raising 35o preflop) and super tight when others are putting the money in (callin down with the AQ hand). I guess calling down isn't tight but to me it is.

[IshiP2U]

I didn't call down with the AQ hand. I think you're referring to the hand where I called two pot size bets from the BB into two people on a flop of KQJ, blank turn, and then I vbet him slightly over half pot on the river when he instachecked on a blank. The thing with this specific video is that the pots never got big enough to go after, hence no shoving with air at this table. The only dynamics that developed were between me and the player I kept isolating, as everybody else really just stayed out of the way unfortunately. Thus, I was really dissapointed with the lack of postflop play. As for semibluffing on draws, I didn't really see any good spots for it, especially when I can possibly overbet when the draw hits depending on who I was in the pot with to make for playing the draw passively. The QT hand where I turned an OESD I don't consider to be a strong draw at all because I think in that situation the only outs I have are for my straight draw (the Q doesn't matter). The video at it turned out was more about a mindset than a playing style; the mindset of trying to generate action. Like I said, it's unfortunate we didn't end up in a lot of reraised pots, because that is when things get more interesting since you don't have to be correct in your decision making as much as you do in raised or limped pots. Anyways, it's really nice to find that the forums have been receptive to the video, and those that think it was completely wacky are certainly welcome to facilitate discussion. As far as people playing back at me goes, the more I think about it I guess it's really not from the TAGs but from the casual single tabler who sees their game stemming out of control, but it certainly has happened from every type of player at one point or another. I'll make sure the next vid has some more action, even I have to do a few takes until I get at a good table (yes I will show it win or lose whatever happens), since as another poster alluded to I really was only active preflop [for the reasons stated above].

Adam

[Dilznoofus]

Iship2u,

Though my tone might have indicated otherwise I in no way meant that you should have been raising your draws. It's just that you didn't, which surprised me given the impression I got from other posters before I watched the video.

I eagerly anticipate a video in which you make some wild plays, but in this particular one your play was pretty solid postflop. BTW very nice value bet on the AQ hand.

[IshiP2U]

I didn't mean to come across as defensive, I was more just saying that I agree with you only being out of line preflop in the vid, and that there definitely was noting crazy postflop like shoving with air, as given the dynamics there was really no reason to after pots postflop since they never got big enough. And honestly, the wild plays I usually make are not so much doing things like shoving with air (though certainly as rebluffs as I will do that) but more things like value shoving 66 vs a table coach on a T hi flop because it looks like they have AK and they ain't foldin, and making real thin value bets (shoving J8 on the river with a 4 straight out there because I know I'm getting called by any pair and what not). Thanks for the feedback.

Adam

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Also.. if you really want people to play back at u.. sit at 50nl

[/ QUOTE ]

[guitarizt]

I dl'ed camtasia to watch this, I liked it and still hope you will post more.

[IshiP2U]

Next vid may not be until the end of the month as I'm attempting to play a large number of hands this month, but anybody who would like to be PM'ed when it's up is welcome to either PM me or make a note in the thread here and I'll be happy to do so.

Adam

[voxx]

I'd like to know if you make another video. I think it's time I strayed away from playing so tight and actually enjoyed the game. It looks so much more fun.

Great video.

[Panic__NL]

Some interesting stuff, too bad none of the TAGs were wanting to play back at you. I am one of those TAGs with a little TAG strategy (lol, no offence taken), but when I notice the table just isn't willing to play, I'll keep raising every hand I get. Untill the moment I get called down with 2nd or bottom pair, then I tighten up. So this was very interesting to see, and I really hope your second vid will come soon, please PM me again, taht was very much appreciated.

Thanks for sharing.

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
Next vid may not be until the end of the month as I'm attempting to play a large number of hands this month, but anybody who would like to be PM'ed when it's up is welcome to either PM me or make a note in the thread here and I'll be happy to do so.

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]
Me
Thanks /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[creamfillin]

could you make a 1000NL video, that'd be rad

[fuze]

I liked the video, kind of the same way I'm trying to approach these games lately.

If you can PM me when you up the next one, that'd be cool /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[phatjeffrey]

Hey can anyone re-up the video to another host(not rapidshare though) ... megaupload isnt working for me.. thx

[JadeRedstone]

Yeah, what I like about your style is that you are sitting in a table and willing to lose a couple of buyin because you KNOW that will allow you to win REAL big pots.
Lol @ people who comment on hand play - this is not about the cards people, this is about situation play and abusing other players.

[Triple Optics]

Here are my thoughts on this video...

The strategy of "stirring up" the table, using your image and playing off of the table dynamics is a good notion in general for poker... However at $25 NL, while there will occasionaly be some TAGs that this strategy would work well against, more often than not the table is full of ultra loose calling stations. Also, alot of the TAGs are multi-tabling at these stakes and will not really be paying enough attention to what you are doing to make this greatly effective against them.

I think this is a good strategy if you want to single table, because it maximizes your reads... and that's the optimal way to play.

While you said this strategy had produced a 15bb/100 result over 30k hands, I'm wondering.... Did you single table for 30k hands? Were you multi-tabling using this strategy? Did you play all 25 NL?

30K hands would take a very long time to play just single tabling, and I think this strategy is heavily realiant on paying close attention to your opponents... So it would be pretty difficult to do effectively playing more than a couple tables.

Like I mentioned before, a majority of players at this limit are excessively loose and make enough poor plays on their own. While this strategy is interesting and most likely superior for higher limits of poker where the players are more skilled, I don't think its optimal for 25 NL... especially if you want to multi-table...

As far as whether it could be more profitable playing like this and single tabling, rather than playing more conventional and 4-8 tabling? I'm pretty sure multi-tabling would be alot more profitable... but who knows. Maybe a skilled enough player could actually minipulate a single table so well that he could achieve a higher hourly rate than a multi tabler. Not likely, but it is interesting to think about.

Also another thing to keep in mind is that players come and go so quickly at micro stakes tables, that by time you double up the short stack a couple of times and build an image with them , they coule be gone before you can take advatange of it.

There's alot of good tips in this video though and I think alot of people will benefit from it. Thanks for posting it.

[Shaqalicious]

this video was awesome, immediately after i watched i tried implementing a few of your strategies and won a couple buyins. i'm going to start single-tabling at the end of sessions and start trying to manipulate the table and screw with people's heads.

i was completely running over this table, showing a bunch of stupid bluffs, then the following hand comes up (bodog 25NL, sorry no clean HH). i raise to 3 on the button with 3h4h. BB flat calls. flop is 25T rainbow. he checks, i bet 3, he calls. turn is A. i bet 3, BB raises to 6, i raise to 12, he calls. river i put him all in, and he mucks AK. he proceeds to berate me in the chat, which was hysterical. TAGs who are "trapping" are great to play with.

[jumbojacks]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my thoughts on this video...

The strategy of "stirring up" the table, using your image and playing off of the table dynamics is a good notion in general for poker... However at $25 NL, while there will occasionaly be some TAGs that this strategy would work well against, more often than not the table is full of ultra loose calling stations. Also, alot of the TAGs are multi-tabling at these stakes and will not really be paying enough attention to what you are doing to make this greatly effective against them.

I think this is a good strategy if you want to single table, because it maximizes your reads... and that's the optimal way to play.

While you said this strategy had produced a 15bb/100 result over 30k hands, I'm wondering.... Did you single table for 30k hands? Were you multi-tabling using this strategy? Did you play all 25 NL?

30K hands would take a very long time to play just single tabling, and I think this strategy is heavily realiant on paying close attention to your opponents... So it would be pretty difficult to do effectively playing more than a couple tables.

Like I mentioned before, a majority of players at this limit are excessively loose and make enough poor plays on their own. While this strategy is interesting and most likely superior for higher limits of poker where the players are more skilled, I don't think its optimal for 25 NL... especially if you want to multi-table...

As far as whether it could be more profitable playing like this and single tabling, rather than playing more conventional and 4-8 tabling? I'm pretty sure multi-tabling would be alot more profitable... but who knows. Maybe a skilled enough player could actually minipulate a single table so well that he could achieve a higher hourly rate than a multi tabler. Not likely, but it is interesting to think about.

Also another thing to keep in mind is that players come and go so quickly at micro stakes tables, that by time you double up the short stack a couple of times and build an image with them , they coule be gone before you can take advatange of it.

There's alot of good tips in this video though and I think alot of people will benefit from it. Thanks for posting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't always need TP to win against loose players. His comments on value betting super thin hold very true at this level. The more hands you play and the more you isolate, the more frustrating even loose passive players get and the more chances you have at their stack. You can vbet midpair and take down good sized pots. Also, your thoughts go to show how his style can be so profitable, since that approach itself doesn't give much room for adjustment.

Solid video. I definitely hope for more in the future. You should play higher to get played back at more. Honestly, I think you made no mistakes at all throughout the video, and I would be surprised if you did for the player of your depth and thought process.

[SuitedKingAce]

Cool, can't wait to see it! thanks a lot

[bozzer]

Like most people I really enjoyed this video. It was a really refreshing change of scenery.

I agree with Optics that a decent multitabling TAG is likely to make more money than OP single tabling this strategy, but that doesn't mean we should ignore what the video's saying.

Someone said that you don't need to stir the tables up at 25nl. I don't know about FTP, but at Stars I've been shocked how nitty 25nl is.

I think we all need to look at working this kind of thing into our games. The only time I currently deliberately try and create and manipulate a table image is in BSB battles. Paying more attention to the players and less to my HUD is something I need to work on.

Apart from practice for higher stakes and potentially increasing our winrate now, there's another big benefit to learning this kind of play: sexing up live games!


Things I am going to take from this video:
- Pay more attention to creating a table image rather than simply reacting to the table image I have created due to my cards
- Single table a bit more for fun + learning
- Try and put this into practice in live action

I would love to see more videos from OP (including the first take). I think sticking around at 25nl for another couple of videos would be very helpful before taking on those nasty 3bettors at 50nl.

Thanks very much OP and Everlong.

[monkover]

really looking forward to the video downloading it right now... I´ve been wanting to open up my game for yuite a long time! I think it will be pure spew though in the beginng...

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
Sweir,

Yes! There are definitely some horrible plays! That's the point buddy! If you view poker as a game of winning pots then I'm probably the uNLer around since I'm playing to lose many of them. As for leaks I dunno pal, I did run at like 15PTBB/100 over about 30k hands playing this style at NL25 and NL50 before trying it at higher stakes. Lol @ feedback being "pretty horrible plays" though, nice way to facilitate discussion, though I can see how it can be like "wtf" and kind of hard to comment on. No it was not just a one off and this is not me saying this is way to play poker, as I said. This is "how-I" not a "how-to" and I definitely don't always play this style. No, this is not a one off, and this was actually the second take because the first take turned out to be 1 hr 40 mins long and the audio got out of sync, but I'm happy to post that one or edit it down. You'd really really like that one, as I stack off with 2nd pair no kicker as advertisement, then stack the same guy like 2 hands later, and get 300BB deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if I came over as a [censored] and I realise that my criticism wasn't constructive. If you make another video I could post e.g's of hands that I would have played differently or talk to you on msn about it (if you have msn?). There was def some good stuff in there though and it was an interesting vid.

The problem with videos like this is that uNLers see its been made by someone who plays mid stakes and suddenly tries to copy the plays and change their game because they think that the play must be good/correct or w/e. I know you say this isn't how to play but how I play but it still doesn't stop them trying, and as you can see there are a few posts in this thread about losing money trying to play a similar style.

[Gelford]

Sure, this isn't easy ... it takes reading skills, which most uNL'er don't posses much.

But the value of this is, that you get to see that the tight tight nitty approach usually advocated here is not the only way to play, even though it is something you have to master before playing like this.

Still when only six hands are dealt, playing only premiums is something that well ... is not strictly necesarry.

[IshiP2U]

Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback thus far. I'll respond to all of them in a few hours.

Adam

[Triggerle]

PM me when you got your next vid shot. I'll assist in converting it if Everlong isn't around.

[IshiP2U]

Oh and btw, I'll talk more about this when I respond more fully but yes those 30k hands were 4 and sometimes 5 tabling but never more and sometimes 3 tabling. I worked up to that though and played one table for a few hours per day for about a week, then added another, etc..... but in answer to your question yes it is possible to do this multitabling: I know somebody who looks to manipulate dynamics in a similar fashion at NL2k while playing 3-4 tables. I'll post some more and some responses in a bit.

[checkmate36]

I was unable to watch the video. I had sound, but the screen was frozen on the one hand at the beginning (trip 8's).

I tried all kinds of codecs or whatever but nothing worked. PM any help pls.

[Everlong]

[ QUOTE ]
PM me when you got your next vid shot. I'll assist in converting it if Everlong isn't around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am merely your Padawan learner in matters Camtastic master /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[IshiP2U]

Mr. Pathetic:

I don't quite understand your question: "How many buyins do you consider necessary to keep from losing your whole roll and tilting like a monkey once you are left with say >5 buyins"? I really can't relate to tilt problems because almost never have them and really never did in the past (actually what happens when I'm on tilt is become very passive and nitty). I can say that I regularly have 4-5 buyin swings per thousand hands, I don't know where that falls in the realm of normal variance but I don't think it's too far from others. I think that's a great point you made about actively building a clue context, that's exactly what I was trying to say. I used to view poker as a game of winning and losing, but now I see it as the negotiation of the price for information and understanding, and this makes a lot of things easier to deal with (no viewing constant reraises as "disrespect", no getting frustrated if somebody keeps shoving on me, etc....). I feel like I probably didn't provide a very helpful response, PM me if you want to talk more.

[IshiP2U]

limit refugee,

This is definitely not the way I always played, and in fact when I was playing 25NL and using PA HUD I was probably playing 12 VPIP. Then something happened that pretty much changed the way I would play poker forever: My poker mentor (a good friend who got me started with the game), fellow 2p2er and (then) Hud user, went on a huge downswing. He started by losing 7k at NL1k and then proceeded to lose at least ten buyins at every level below that until finally ending up 50k in the hole and playing NL50. He decided to stop using PA HUD, start focusing more on game dynamics and getting inside people's heads while cutting down the number of tables, and went from NL50 back to NL1k in about three and a half weeks to the tune of about +90k. I then decided I too would take this approach to the game, so I turned off my HUD and started single tabling at NL25 until I felt like I was starting to understand the players I was playing against. Gradually I added tables, while constantly taking breaks from multitabling to play one table and take voluminous notes on everybody to practice, and surely enough I began to move up limits with ease, get more relaxed while I was playing the game, and just overall have more fun along with improving my results. I think that understanding the TAG "system" (you can certainly win at any level playing TAG but the TAGs at NL1k are far different than the TAGs at NL25) and understanding how to play nitty is essential to perfect before you begin to open it up. Good TAGs are constantly bluffing, whereas playing a wide open style is really more about value betting extremely thinly and knowing when a raise means somebody is sick of you and when they have a real hand.

Adam

[IshiP2U]

Panic_NL,

Actually when I start getting called with 2nd or bottom pair that's when I start to loosen up how far I will go with hands and start value betting super thin (I probably would have shoved the river with ANY K in that AQ hand at the beginning of the video and in similar situations as the dynamics dictates). Like I was saying in the video, it's one thing to be getting called down and another one to start getting rebluffed. I'll touch more on this in other vids.

[JadeRedstone]

I had a thought : Fulltilt have Deep stack tables at $0.15/$0.30 level. why don't you make your next video there?
Sure not every one sit with 200XBB but most at least have 100XBB so real short stacks are almost never there.

[IshiP2U]

I'm happy to make a deepstacked video, but I think other videos would be more helpful since many of the hands posted in uNL seem to be with much smaller stack sizes (though there are some 200+ BB's deep). The idea is how to play aggressively for 100BB's so you can get deepstacke. Once I've made another vid starting with 100BB's or put up the first take, then I can go ahead and make a deep stack vid, though it is a little artificial since buying in for 200BB's is way different than doubling your stack at a table and building history with the opponents etc...But I do think that's a good idea on your part.

[Gelford]

Interesting idea, but imho not suited for uNL videos. Playing a 100BB stack is the bread and butter of most here, and there are a lot of dynamics to be explored here, so no need to make matters more complicated by analysing situations that most never play.

[voxx]

Any idea when you'll have time to post another video.

So far this has transformed my game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jgunnip]

Nice vid, shot you a PM. I plan on watching it a couple more times and hopefully I can improve on learnign this new gear.

[Supwithbates]

OP,
60/40 types like you are the bane of my existence. I look at their stats and say ZOMG MANIAC but then they turn out to be decent postflop and I end up generally avoiding them unless they're seated to my right (then they usually leave pretty quickly because I start 3betting them so thin it makes their head spin)

What would be a good counterstrategy against this type of player that has position on you? When I end up with one of these guys to my left or 2 to my left, I generally end up just leaving the table.

How would this strategy fare at 1000NL? I can't see CO limping k4o or raising rags UTG to be profitable unless the table is full of morans (which yours certainly was)

[the machine]

im getting no sound and a still picture of A3 vs 68


this is from the xvid formatted upload

[ama0330]

I fundamentally disagree with almost everything in this video, and I don't mean because the plays are "non-standard" or "maniacal", I mean that this video is full of badly chosen, over-expensive and inefficient spots if our objective is to cultivate an image and manipulate table dynamics.

I don't mean to be offensive but seeing everyone bow down before this video just because the guy is playing 60/40 is un-nerving.

[JadeRedstone]

Ama , the reason we are all gobsmacked about this video is not any particular hand or actual play. It is the idea of sitting in a table with a plan. Is the discussion of isolating weak players and attacking them.

it is much more interesting to see someone able to make a thin value bet with TPNK than someone making value bets with the nuts.
I have to say that after seeing this video I HAVEN'T changed my game one bit. To me this is just the pre-discussion , I don't think we touched any real point on how to play OP way as of yet.

And btw, I didn't get from this video that you have to raise or bet light. What I got from this video is OP wanting to make this table use to play bigger pots. So when we do hit we get paid by stacks.

I've seen this happen in tables with maniacs in them and I love it. The table dynamic has changed and people start calling big bets with ,marginal hand. I just do not know how to create it my self, yet!

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
I fundamentally disagree with almost everything in this video, and I don't mean because the plays are "non-standard" or "maniacal", I mean that this video is full of badly chosen, over-expensive and inefficient spots if our objective is to cultivate an image and manipulate table dynamics.

I don't mean to be offensive but seeing everyone bow down before this video just because the guy is playing 60/40 is un-nerving.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Also when you have created a crazy image I don't really think you are using it correctly. The table will adapt to you being very loose/aggro so you need to change your play and start tightening up so that they are playing incorrectly against you, as opposed to correctly.

[the machine]

i tried to redownload it and im not getting anything. im using everlongs DL and viewing in VLC media player. and i have the xvid codec.

all i see if the opening shot of A3 vs 68 and it doesnt change, no audio either

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
I fundamentally disagree with almost everything in this video, and I don't mean because the plays are "non-standard" or "maniacal", I mean that this video is full of badly chosen, over-expensive and inefficient spots if our objective is to cultivate an image and manipulate table dynamics.

I don't mean to be offensive but seeing everyone bow down before this video just because the guy is playing 60/40 is un-nerving.

[/ QUOTE ]
I find the idea of liking a MSNLer going to the effort of giving us a free video like this pretty cool.
OTOH I find the idea of assuming that people like the video 'because he's playing 60/40' hilarious.
But each to their own /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[IshiP2U]

The objective of the video was not to encourage people to play maniac and it wasn't to encourage people to value bet light (the highlight of the video may just as well have been me folding a Q high flush to a nit on a three flush board). The idea of the video was to sit down ready to think about whether the table you are at is profitable, and if it isn't profitable how to make it a profitable table. In this specific situation, it was isolating the weak player to my right as much as possible. I don't think anybody is bowing down before this video, I think they are just refreshed to see somebody actively processing information (that doesn't come from a HUD) when they are at the table, be the decisions they make with that information right or wrong. That's the message of the video.

[IshiP2U]

Sweir,

You make a few vague statements I'm not sure about. "The table will adapt"....by table do you mean everybody or certain players at the table? In either case, though many times it usually does, the adapting that you were talking about never really happened with this table, so I don't know what you mean about using my image "correctly". I don't recall getting involved in any big pots out of position with marginal holdings or anything like that. I really have no idea what you're talking about here with regards to this specific video. It seems like you're just kind of quoting the oft said "play loose and crazy...then tighten up and get paid off" type of phrase without regard to applying it here or not. I'm certainly happy to hear if I'm wrong though.

Adam

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
Sweir,

You make a few vague statements I'm not sure about. "The table will adapt"....by table do you mean everybody or certain players at the table? In either case, though many times it usually does, the adapting that you were talking about never really happened with this table, so I don't know what you mean about using my image "correctly". I don't recall getting involved in any big pots out of position with marginal holdings or anything like that. I really have no idea what you're talking about here with regards to this specific video. It seems like you're just kind of quoting the oft said "play loose and crazy...then tighten up and get paid off" type of phrase without regard to applying it here or not. I'm certainly happy to hear if I'm wrong though.

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah your probably correct, im kinda just rambling a bit here. I was just thinking that maybe you could have talked about this a bit more in the video. Like, If they start adapting to my play then I will do x. I will know when they start adapting when they do y, or z...etc. I think that without something along those lines people will start to think that you can play like this all the time. Maybe you can but imo it is pretty important to know when to change gears and how to when playing like this.

[Gelford]

Sweir, I think I understand what you mean.

You are into the dynamic adaption approach (like in abas latest CR video or lots of GP vids).

You give of an image of being maniac, then you tighten up and play deceptively tight and etc ... back and forth.


This is a highstakes approach against thinking opponents, but is impossible in uNL, opponents aren't that observant.


So basically this is slightly simpler, all that they register is that you like to gamble or that you do not like to gamble, so what is happening here, is that IShip gambles with the ultra shorts, which is ... well .. HOLLA! (and fairly cheap)

With the larger stacks, he basically just splashes around, and find that the person on his right will call down with any piece of the flop, so he valuebets him insanely .... against the nits he is much more conservative, whatever he might claim while talking.

The approach is simply to raise a lot pf (=3-4bb) and seem like a gambling man, then you adjust to the different players. Some you GAMBOOOL with ... others you just give a cbet, and not even that sometimes.


Unless you actually succed in annoying the nits, but that is difficult at uNL, as they just sit there playing 36488 tables with their pf starting hands chart in their hands. But if you succeed in annoying the nits, then it gets interesting.



SHIP, correct me if I missunderstand you /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[IshiP2U]

Sweir,

Yes! I wholeheartedly agree with you that it's extremely important to be able to change gears! That was what I was saying in the beginning is that I don't look to play any certain style all the time, but I think it's important for the table to have some energy, and I also think it's important to build an information base on people and an individual relationship with them at the table. I've tried to make it very clear that I don't advocate this style and I don't advocate not playing it either. I really think you may have been taking this as a how-to video (or since you seem to hate it as a how-not-to video), but that wasn't the point at all. People in uNL make a lot of videos, I decided I would put one up since mine would probably be different and it's always nice to have a fresh perspective either way. Again, I think "if they start adapting to my play then I will do x" is way too general. It depends on how they are adapting; some players get even nittier, other players get substantially looser and more aggressive, and other get substantially less aggressive. I tried to make the commentary as relevant as possible to the situations at the table, but I can see how talking about some of the things you suggested would be helpful. That's why I thought everything would go better as a series.

[Gelford]

Lots of videos have been made on ABC poker, this one (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9628446&an=0&page=2#Post 9628446) is very popular rumour has it (and is rehosted a couple of times during the thread). A good introduction to nitting it up profitably.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
Lots of videos have been made on ABC poker, this one (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9628446&an=0&page=2#Post 9628446) is very popular rumour has it (and is rehosted a couple of times during the thread). A good introduction to nitting it up profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't care what anyone says, raising 17 percent of your dealt hands, firing 2 barrels with ace high, 4-betting TT and 5-bet shoving AKo preflop is not nitty. I hope you're saying that in jest Gelford, otherwise you've set the bar very high for non-nittiness. Very nice video BTW.

[Gelford]

lol ... thx man.

No, by nittyness, I just mean playing with a vpip of 18 and below, once in a hand, I believe you have to be able splash around /images/graemlins/smile.gif


But back on track, I have hijacked this tread with my own vid, an ego thing, but this is about Iship's vid (sorry mate)

[ama0330]

Having read ship's replies I understand better the purpose of his video. I was never disagreeing with the concept of "stirring up the table", its something which I have tried out many times with great success and though I feel it is definitely +EV, its high variance which is why I dont do it habitually.

My problem was (and still is) with the specific plays incorporated in the video which I believe to be ineffective and expensive, by that I mean that you can achieve the same goal with different and better plays. I particularly have huge problems with the AQ hand where hero calls down on two streets, and as evidenced in the commentary I think hero is unable to justify it himself.

There are a lot of other plays which I disagree with in the video, but that doesn't mean that I disagree with the concept as a whole. I think that when it is correctly implemented it is most definitely profitable. My concern with this video is that people would get over-excited and carbon copy what I deem to be very incorrect plays without understanding for themselves why they may be less than optimal.

[IshiP2U]

Ama,

Alright well, as far as specifics, I play poker for a living, meaning I wouldn't make the AQ play if I couldn't justify it. I probably just did a bad job of explaining it due to the fact that I had somebody heavily distracting me throughout the video (I actually misspoke saying "FD" instead of "pair plus draw" and I think I misspoke a few times throughout the vid and the speech was admittedly a bit choppy at points). Some things are feel. It was just a video of me playing poker, and you automatically turn it into an issue of correct or incorrect instead of asking questions to understand my point of view and then discuss from there. The way you talk about efficiency and looking to make the "correct" play suggests you take a very structured approach to the game, which is a large difference between you and I. Not everybody is waiting for great hands to put money in the middle in decent sized pots, and not everybody is going to be as conservative as you. I'm not saying this to mean "not everybody=me", but to say I'm looking to mix it up with the players who aren't as conservative. Of course, I don't know you, and I may be wrong, but I'd be extremely shocked if you weren't a conservative player no matter what the circumstances at the table from the way you're talking (please don't take that as an insult). Seems like you approach the game playing not to lose which is probably why the video made you uncomfortable and seemed "fundamental[ly" flawed and "inefficient". If I would've had my way it would've been a variance fest and an all out chip throwing war with us hopefully coming out a buy in or two ahead. That's when poker for me is fun. Though I used to be very conservative, I don't play the game to try and grind out a small but steady profit anymore, I play to culvtivate dynamics, get involved in decisions I have to think through, and play big pots. It's No Limit Hold 'Em; I want to put all the money I have at the table in the middle whenever I think I've got even a slight edge. I'm not saying that approach is the right one or the wrong one, I'm just trying to explain to you the way I've to think about the game because so far I'm of the opinion that it's drastically different than the way you do. BTW, the AQ hand actually wasn't about building an image, but more about already getting involved with "billjclinton" since we had raised like every hand since he was at the table and he was single tabling. The idea of the video is to take the approach of "here's my hand, put some chips in if you want to show me better". And also, you're not the first person to worry that this video will be misused as you say. Why are you guys worrying about that? Sorry you tried to play a looser style once and it cost you a few buyins if that's what has you saying this.

Adam

Oh and also, I hope you don't take that response as any kind of flame or anything like that because that's not at all how it was meant.

[sputum]

Adam

Please upload the original 1h40 referred to earlier, audio synch problems and all. I promise not to squander buyins trying to copy it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[phist]

i think this was solid gold, but much too short. please make a long one. or many. i think that vids like this would really help a lot of people, but if it's "too early" for some to really "get it", it would be spewage.


anyways thanks and i'm really looking forward to the next installment.

[KRS ONE]

Posting so i can find this thread, but yeh, cool vid, look forward to more.

[dfkdfk]

This was an interesting video - not quite as earth shattering as people made me think it would be, but none the less your preflop play was a little different(a longer video is a good idea cus you only have about 20 mins of play here). As you said, your postflop play is whats going to make the difference here... stimulating action with any hand looking to get value when you outflop people, looking to get away cheap when your beat, playing in position... Building an image that gets called down w/ weak hands... switching gears when you start to catch too much heat, and generally keeping the enemy guessing.

I play pretty LAG myself and I think this works great, especially against small stacks, obviously we are looking to get full stacks here but busting short stacks is a nice way to make some extra $$ - they are looking for action and are usually willing to gamble with marginal hands. If you double up a short stack its not the end of the world either as you were saying.

Now on to your tell "he insta-checked on the river when a blank came up" (AQ hand) doesnt really work for me. I actually find that a lot of the time an instacheck is the opponent trying to act weak when they have a solid hand. Last night after watching your video I had a few hands get beat in such a fashion - instacheck on the river on a blank, betting there is usually throwing money away for me unless I have a real hand. Then again I only play 5NL so perhaps the play is a little different at 25NL. - Also you are a much better player then me so your read on other streets had a lot to do with it.

Also, I like the (your?) approach to not playing a bazzillion tables. I only recently got a HUD so I dont rely on it for reads that much - the stats are interesting and a good supplement. I usually like to start off with 1 table, when I start to get bored fire up a second... I'm getting to where I can probably handle a third if things really get slow, but if I'm at a particularly good table and I'm getting into a lot of hands then I may just back down to 1 table again... also when I start to get tired towards the end of my session I like to get down to 1 table, if I'm behind or something at a table I might focus on that one.

Anyhow - good video, interesting thread... I just thought I'd add some comments if anyone was still interested in talking about this video / play style.

[IshiP2U]

bump

[jk1986]

I call level on this whole thread, I'm with Ama on the fact that some of the plays were far too -EV to be justified. Aba made a CR video a few back showing how he creates this kind of image and action, and shows how he manages it without putting himself as few -EV spots as possible.
I agree with the concept, but this takes it too far at the micros, where people give you action anyways. If you want action from the TAGs, just find some spots to 3bet them light and they get frustrated pretty quick. IDK, I just have this brilliant image of loads of uNL players trying to emulate this without your postflop experience and becoming very -EV.

[corsakh]

Nice vid, loved it /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

One thing bothers me, what bankroll do you have to maintain to sustain this play? I have big doubts that 40BI would be enough, I would imagine that 5-8 BI downswings are pretty common.

[corsakh]

Tryed some of your stuff on one of the tables /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Should not have /images/graemlins/laugh.gif It works very well, I suppose I just dont read good enough /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Donked off first BI by getting called down on all 3 streets extra lite with bottom pair of fours. But thats fine, a set up /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Second time I thought I stacked him (had second nuts flush) but he somehow had an ace high flush. I am hundred percent positive he was stacking off on a 3high flush, so just unlucky. Couple hands later I stacked him though, and now playing 200BB deep in position to a steaming fish /images/graemlins/smile.gif Beautiful /images/graemlins/smile.gif But its freaking swingy.


I am loving it though, but its so intensive and BR demanding - omg. But I wanna learn how to play this style, actually poker, not just grinding.

[corsakh]

He stacked off completely. 4BI. Awesome.

[batair]

If this was not a level he would of already made move vids.

[Prodigy54321]

that vid was awesome..I don't know if it was good or bad play because I suck at poker..but it was interesting in any case...

will you be making more vids soon?

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]

If this was not a level he would of already made move vids.

[/ QUOTE ]

This vid is not a level, trust me on this one .. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[schralekerel]

I doubt its +EV to play like this...

Regular 25NL players just stick to their +EV playing style and will get your stack on ocasion but I doubd you will ever get their stack.