50NL QQ facing pressure p/f and flop against 2+2

[CPHoya]

Word. Villain is a familiar 2+2 who is welcome to reveal himself if he wants to. I hadn't played with him before. I was running at the time something like 20/17/~2 (guesstimate). Friendly banter between myself and villain. Villain was at 27/17/3. Thoughts on all streets appreciated.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($31.15)
Hero ($53.90)
SB ($79.35)
BB ($20)
UTG ($49.25)
MP ($20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $11.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP folds, CO folds, Hero calls $6.25.

Flop: ($24.75) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($24.75) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $16</font>, Hero . . .

This hand might look too easy but I think pre-flop is a tough spot. Should I have 4-bet to figure out for sure what I'm against? Is this a case of minimizing losses, or should I have saved the $6.25 pre? Am I behind on the turn?

An interesting exchange of hands followed this particular hand. I anticipate this thread will track those hands.

[Genz]

Hm. the preflop call is thin. Your stack isn't big enough to play this for set value. When the K hits, you are behind almost everything he'd 4bet preflop with. With TT or JJ, he'd probably just call your reraise and play it for set value himself. On the flop you are behind AA, KK, AK which are probably his whole range. So unless you have a good reason to believe he is full of it and wants to put a move on you, you should fold.

[avfletch]

Have you been 3betting light? If so does villain know that? Unless the answers are a resounding yes then I just get out of his way preflop.

At the upper end of uSNL there are a reasonable amount of semi-decent players who are capable of 3betting light. Very few are capable of cold 4betting you light, especially when they are OOP. As a starting point ask yourself what your range is in his spot and I'm pretty sure you'll find it crushes QQ.

[.xxxx.]

considering CO put in the first raise, villain has QQ+,AK here pretty much always regardless of 2+2 or not at uNL.....
UNLESS, he realizes TT/JJ don't have the proper set value played OOP (villain is in SB) with this kind of pf action
without getting too fancy and hyperventilating because you have QQ, villain's range is way ahead of you enough that the turn is a fold

what was the difference in hands following this? sounds like a hint that he was 3betting light and made you look silly

[CPHoya]

[ QUOTE ]
what was the difference in hands following this? sounds like a hint that he was 3betting light and made you look silly

[/ QUOTE ]

From my perspective this hand didn't really inform the following hands, but I think we got ourselves in several interesting situations after this.

The reason I called was I do think this villain is capable of sometimes 4-betting light or with air in this spot, because he'd seen me 3-bet several times before within the last 15 minutes. He never saw the cards, which were JJ+, AK.

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what was the difference in hands following this? sounds like a hint that he was 3betting light and made you look silly

[/ QUOTE ]

From my perspective this hand didn't really inform the following hands, but I think we got ourselves in several interesting situations after this.

The reason I called was I do think this villain is capable of sometimes 4-betting light or with air in this spot, because he'd seen me 3-bet several times before within the last 15 minutes. He never saw the cards, which were JJ+, AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

A friendly hint: In general, when you have someone at a table who you know is 2+2 so that you think he has some competence or you spot someone that gives a competent impression, you should AVOID playing pots with these people unless you have a good reason that you are a better player. Reasons are:
1) You might have underestimated your opponent and he is actually the better player.
2) It's not worth it. You can win easier money from the other players and you can be sure that you will get into very thin situations with that competent opponent.

So don't make the mistake of trying to outplay the only (other) good player at the table to prove that you are good yourself. Concentrate on the others. Trying to prove other people how good you are is actually bad poker when you see making money as the primary motive of the game.

Maybe you didn't do anything of what I said and it was just a coincidence. But the way you described the hand and the situation it gave me the feeling that you might have sought a confrontation with him from time to time.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what was the difference in hands following this? sounds like a hint that he was 3betting light and made you look silly

[/ QUOTE ]

From my perspective this hand didn't really inform the following hands, but I think we got ourselves in several interesting situations after this.

The reason I called was I do think this villain is capable of sometimes 4-betting light or with air in this spot, because he'd seen me 3-bet several times before within the last 15 minutes. He never saw the cards, which were JJ+, AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really is a fringe case for him to be 4betting you. It's far more likely he just has a big hand. Even if there is an X% chance that he's doing this light, what are you planning to do? Call down/stack off on any non A/K flop and fold all the A/K flops? I really don't see many good outcomes here.

[Genz]

If you think that there is a good chance that he is 4betting you lightly, you should actually push preflop. But this is uNL and I think this would be more a line of thinking like "ZOMG HES R 2p2! HES R VUL OF ITS!!!11!!one!eleven". Don't get into these spots. You don't have to do to make money there.

[jerryf1914]

If this hand occured at $10nl would a shove be appropriate pre flop?

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
If this hand occured at $10nl would a shove be appropriate pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. They may call a lot wider but they don't cold 4bet wider.

[Genz]

not really unless villain is a maniac and you know it. People's 4betting ranges are usually very tight. When you think that villain is somewhat competent, i.e. knows about position and stuff, the range is even tighter especially when villain is in the SB.

[CPHoya]

[ QUOTE ]
A friendly hint: In general, when you have someone at a table who you know is 2+2 so that you think he has some competence or you spot someone that gives a competent impression, you should AVOID playing pots with these people unless you have a good reason that you are a better player. Reasons are:
1) You might have underestimated your opponent and he is actually the better player.
2) It's not worth it. You can win easier money from the other players and you can be sure that you will get into very thin situations with that competent opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting. I actually sat at this table, noticed villain, said what's up, and left without playing a hand . . . before returning when I realized there was at least one good mark at that table. Another unbelievable donator showed up shortly after that and then there we were with villain on my left.

For the most part I had deferred to him and he had deferred to me whenever the other showed strength, as is good practice.

For what it's worth I've thought about this more and I think I could have and should have cut my losses and folded pre-flop.

[SirFelixCat]

Hi...figure now is a good time to make an appearance. I'm SirFelixCat and I'm villain.

Now, there can be a case made, depending on if the villain was one of the 2 completel monkeys at our table, that I'd 4-bet light, thinking that OP would be raising to isolate. Not normal uNL thinking, but whatever.

Now, provided I'm not 4betting light, you're crushed if an A or K flops. AK, AA, KK, maaaaaaybe QQ here. Now, I was trying to confuse OP into thinking that the K scared me and hence the check, but to no avail. Villain had AKs and imo, again, depending on if I thought OP was 3-betting the monkey light, QQ could be good here, preflop. Just as a whole, personally, I muck QQ here and find a better spot.

My turn:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/))

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $79.35</font>
BB: $20
UTG: $49.25
MP: $20
CO: $31.15
BTN: $53.90

MP posts $0.50
<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP checks, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.50</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $4.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $11</font>, 3 folds, BTN calls $6.25

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($24.50) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($24.50) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $16</font>, BTN folds
Uncalled bet of $16 returned to Hero

Pot Size: $24.50 ($1.20 Rake)


Here is another hand, but from the opposite perspective, villain is CPHoya now:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/))

SB: $7.25
BB: $32.40
UTG: $52.50
<font color="black">Hero (CO): $49.25</font>
BTN: $54.35

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $4.25

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($12.75) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $9</font>, Hero calls $9

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($30.75) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets all-in for $37.50</font>, Hero ???
Uncalled bet of $37.50 returned to UTG

Pot Size: $30.75 ($1.50 Rake)

My thinking, even with our history is villain has me crushed, chop or air. Crushed more likely as I'm not beating JJ, 99, AK, or AJ. Thoughts on the whole hand...this is what CPHoya wanted btw...posting a string of hands from teh same session between 2 fellow solid 2p2'ers....

[Chomp]

Why are people suggesting that 4betting light at 50NL is somehow a sign of godlike genius?

If anything, I think the exact opposite is true - it's really pretty dim and almost certinaly more FPS than solid tactics.

After all, villains at uNL don't even 3-bet light for crying out loud, in addition to the fact they never fold and are usually thinking on Level 1...what on earth is the point in 4betting light in these circumstances with any frequncy?

I'd leave 4betting light for much higher stakes - I suspect that even at 100NL it is a dubious strategy.

[CPHoya]

Just to clarify, the first hand Felix posted is the same hand I posted, but from his perspective. I didn't show the action in my post but I folded it on the turn. As I said above, I should have gotten away from QQ before the flop and saved $6.25.

To be clear about why: once I call I'm basically playing for set value, which is just stupid against a pf 4-bet. While I do understand the arguments about Felix perhaps 4-betting light, I would need far more history to really consider playing back. And even then I would think 4-betting light would be a tool utilized only rarely, so it would be hard to pick out a spot where Felix was doing so.

Conclusion: pf call was a bad play, but I 'got away' cheaply. Should never have been there to begin with.

I'll wait a while before posting hand 2 (Felix, pm me to let me know if we let this thread rest here or go one more).

[.xxxx.]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are people suggesting that 4betting light at 50NL is somehow a sign of godlike genius?

If anything, I think the exact opposite is true - it's really pretty dim and almost certinaly more FPS than solid tactics.

After all, villains at uNL don't even 3-bet light for crying out loud, in addition to the fact they never fold and are usually thinking on Level 1...what on earth is the point in 4betting light in these circumstances with any frequncy?

I'd leave 4betting light for much higher stakes - I suspect that even at 100NL it is a dubious strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[CaseS87]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi...figure now is a good time to make an appearance. I'm SirFelixCat and I'm villain.

Now, there can be a case made, depending on if the villain was one of the 2 completel monkeys at our table, that I'd 4-bet light, thinking that OP would be raising to isolate. Not normal uNL thinking, but whatever.

Now, provided I'm not 4betting light, you're crushed if an A or K flops. AK, AA, KK, maaaaaaybe QQ here. Now, I was trying to confuse OP into thinking that the K scared me and hence the check, but to no avail. Villain had AKs and imo, again, depending on if I thought OP was 3-betting the monkey light, QQ could be good here, preflop. Just as a whole, personally, I muck QQ here and find a better spot.

My turn:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/))

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $79.35</font>
BB: $20
UTG: $49.25
MP: $20
CO: $31.15
BTN: $53.90

MP posts $0.50
<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP checks, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.50</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $4.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $11</font>, 3 folds, BTN calls $6.25

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($24.50) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($24.50) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $16</font>, BTN folds
Uncalled bet of $16 returned to Hero

Pot Size: $24.50 ($1.20 Rake)


Here is another hand, but from the opposite perspective, villain is CPHoya now:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/))

SB: $7.25
BB: $32.40
UTG: $52.50
<font color="black">Hero (CO): $49.25</font>
BTN: $54.35

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $4.25

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($12.75) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $9</font>, Hero calls $9

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($30.75) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets all-in for $37.50</font>, Hero ???
Uncalled bet of $37.50 returned to UTG

Pot Size: $30.75 ($1.50 Rake)

My thinking, even with our history is villain has me crushed, chop or air. Crushed more likely as I'm not beating JJ, 99, AK, or AJ. Thoughts on the whole hand...this is what CPHoya wanted btw...posting a string of hands from teh same session between 2 fellow solid 2p2'ers....

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played both of these hands well except I think a case can be made for folding AQo to an utg raise by a tight/good player. Not much value there IMO.

[CPHoya]

So about that second hand. . .

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($32.40)
Hero ($52.50)
MP ($49.25)
Button ($54.35)
SB ($7.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $4.25.

Flop: ($12.75) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9</font>, MP calls $9.

Turn: ($30.75) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $37.5 (All-In)</font>, MP folds.

Final Pot: $68.25

Not real sure how you guys are going to take this one but I thought it was an excellent spot.

::puts on flame-retardant suit::

[jonyy6788]

Yuck at ur turn bluff....put the hand into context.

3-bet pot, he calls ur donk bet flop AJx. So basically you're praying to fold out QQ/KK and those hands aren't very likely given your hole cards. Also, the overbet AI is almost ALWAYS a sign of bluffing/wanting the other guy to fold at the micros. I sometimes do these overbets and its always when I have nothing.

Also FYI...I fold this KQo OOP. We got an easily dominated hand and to make it profitable long-term you're gonna have to pull off some bluffs (and those are mighty expensive in 3-bet pots....ESPECIALLY ON THE TURN FOR YOUR STACK). I realize it worked in this situation, but realistically this is just fancy play.


I wouldn't go out looking for 2+2'ers at the table and try to target them. Target the fish.

[sebbb]

* grunch *

so he is a thikinng player and he knows you're a thinking player, so it's possible that he tried to put a move on you thinking you were 3-betting light preflop. I don't think I can fold preflop here.

On the flop the king is a bit embarassing... If the pot was small, I would check behind, and try to see a cheap showdown, inducing bluffs etc. But the pot is huge, and I think I'd take a stab at it on the flop, say $16, and give up to any further action.

As played, I'm tempted to call the turn, but I don't wanna have to decide if it's a bluff or not in a big pot like that, especially with another big bet coming up on the river. So I'd rather make a decision on the flop by betting.

[sebbb]

alright so seems I was overestimating the possiblity of a 2+2 4 betting light agaisnt another 2+2er

[urubu111]

You only beat air!! Insta fold pre flop if you don´t have a lag image who 3bets light.

With my image I shove all day pre flop and hope get called by TT.

[SirFelixCat]

I sooooo wanted to call too....bastage. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CPHoya]

We can talk about why I might do that there if we want. I won't mind revealing my SUPER SECRET ELITE POKER STRATEGERY!!11!!1!! until I climb up to like the 10/20 games (if that ever happens).

I think this hand did have something to do with the later hand though. Might be fun to talk about that if you want.

[0evg0]

if he's 20/17, then 3bet AQ is fine

and call the all-in because he has air or he's not very good at all or there's a lot more metagame going on than has been mentioned

[SirFelixCat]

The ONLY thing that worried me was the fact that the flop was AJx...if that J isn't there, that turns it into a call, imo. But yes, I really thought that he put ME on AK therefore, how could he push unless he had AJ? Overthinking maybe, but honest....

[CPHoya]

I do not mean to imply that this bluff was perfectly executed, nor that I'm better than anyone on this board, but I do think uNL posters have a penchant for unrealistically criticizing bluffs because they either perceive all large bluffs at this level to be silly, or think risky large bets are always FPS.

In this situation I'm convinced Felix will 3-bet me with AJs+, 99+, AQ+, at least. So I call, confident that I can get away if anything bad happens.

The flop comes out giving me 4 outs to a straight, 3 to the nuts. If I happen to catch that card on the turn I expect to drag a huge pot. Felix, meanwhile, knows I just called a 3-bet OOP (again, so feel free to criticize that). His range includes a lot of aces, but also KK, QQ. It's really unlikely Felix is totally comfortable with whatever he's holding.

So I lead out for a little over 2/3 pot with fold equity against any non-A. Felix pauses and calls. Two things have happened: (1) I've shown strength by raising pre, calling oop, and firing at an A-high board, and (2) Felix has demonstrated that he is not comfortable with his holding. If I was right about the ranges, and I was confident I was, Felix was in a tough spot with one pair and his call shows weakness. Because I know Felix is a good, thinking player I think he cannot call a massive overbet.

The turn card bricks. So far my story should add up from his perspective - my range is roughly AJ+, JJ+, maybe 66, and the only hands he's beating are QQ and KK. If I bet 2/3 again I'm giving Felix 5:2, and I think he calls that. If I bet pot I'm giving him 2:1, and that [/i]might[/i] still be a call, but the shove makes this pretty ugly with top pair decent kicker. Felix cannot go broke with just one pair.

Some of the time, obviously, I'm wrong and he has a strong 2 pair or something worse and I stack off on a bluff and "it's spew" and "I'm a donkey" etc., etc. But I don't think this is nearly as bad as it looks.

Also, I would not do this against someone I didn't respect. I get "looked up," if you can call it that, by a lot of 50NL players with no idea what they're doing.

Again, feel free to rip me if you think I'm wrong.

[0evg0]

i posted my thoughts on the insta-call with AQ before reading your HH

it's a super simple call, seriously. and therefore a terrible bluff.

i'd call with AT just as fast, and therefore probably KK too.

wtf real hand do you actually play this way besides bottom sets? and it's not like you take that line with 66 every time, or shouldn't at least

[Vyse]

I've played with Felix and thought you were talking about him in the OP. He's very tight so it's good to bluff him every now and then. He will always fold a strong one-pair hand if you put pressure on him.

[CPHoya]

[ QUOTE ]

it's a super simple call, seriously. and therefore a terrible bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

First time I read this I thought you said ". . . and therefore a terrible call," which would've been an interesting hint at leveled thinking.

It's a weird line, obviously. Does that factor alone make a call here good? You have top pair! I guess I just don't see how you can look at this hand in context, including aggression and OOP pressure, as well as respect for the villain's game (in this case mine), and conclude because "wtf real hand do you actually play this way" that it's a snap call.

If Felix had been thinking "this is obviously one large, elaborate bluff" the whole time he would've snap-called because I hung myself, but as I explained above I don't think this is one of those scenarios.

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a weird line, obviously. Does that factor alone make a call here good?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, pretty much.

and it did say "therefore a terrible call" but i was on the phone and meant "bluff" obv

[urubu111]

Jesus, AQ hand is insta call. A2 would be insta call too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[IshiP2U]

Why didn't you just bet the flop and see if he's scared of AK or not?

[urubu111]

NO value betting this flop!!

[ChuckDiesel]

I can't see why OP would be ragged on he played the person not the hand and his expected outcome did occur. Whatever his level of thinking might be he was right because he did scare Felix like he knew he would.

Now as far as a humongous overbet and you guys saying that's an insta call . An overbet is usually a bluff or an upper level thinker that wants you to think it's a bluff. since felix knows OP isn't a level 1 thinker I can see why he'd fold this hand.

I'm pretty sure Felix calls this against anyone else at the table. I'm pretty sure OP doesn't do this against anyone else at the table.