3 bet QQ OOP PF. flop action

[the machine]

bet fold??? no read.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh/))

<font color="black">Hero (SB): $52.85</font>
BB: $71.70
UTG: $115.60
BTN: $56

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $2</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $5

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($14.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero ????

[evazan]

Fold....jk


I am betting here 99% of the time. I don't really understand why your asking about this spot in this hand. Perhaps it could get much more interesting if you posted what you did, villains action, then your next move.

[SkeetyMcdoogle]

I bet 12 here all day every day

[.xxxx.]

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I bet 12 here all day every day

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[the machine]

ok well hes actually 23/14/4.63 only 232 hands though.

i just wanted to see lines that people would take against an unknown here. you both said bet. why????

[.xxxx.]

to take it further tho

Skeety, what line do you take if villain calls?
Would you call with TT-QQ in this spot if you faced the cbet?

[the machine]

[ QUOTE ]
to take it further tho

Skeety, what line do you take if villain calls?
Would you call with TT-QQ in this spot if you faced the cbet?

[/ QUOTE ]


exactly, this is the point of the post. what is he calling with that i beat. normally id say id cbet this flop with AK but with QQ am i losing value from this player

[.xxxx.]

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to take it further tho

Skeety, what line do you take if villain calls?
Would you call with TT-QQ in this spot if you faced the cbet?

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exactly, this is the point of the post. what is he calling with that i beat. normally id say id cbet this flop with AK but with QQ am i losing value from this player

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leading out is the best play here because you fold out those hands, TT-QQ, pretty often with an A/K flop and by taking the aggression yourself you've beaten him to the bluff. These are the times that your hand basically turns into a bluff because only a K or better is going to playback/call in this spot and you're repping that. Thoughts?

[evazan]

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to take it further tho

Skeety, what line do you take if villain calls?
Would you call with TT-QQ in this spot if you faced the cbet?

[/ QUOTE ]


exactly, this is the point of the post. what is he calling with that i beat. normally id say id cbet this flop with AK but with QQ am i losing value from this player

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After attempting to write a post to answer your question I am now interested in this spot of this hand too. You asked why would I bet and I began writing:

"If you bet you will fold out lower pockets that didn't hit sets, and AQ. AK, a set or a higher pocket will call."

Given that reasoning a bet doesn't sound like a good play but I still think it is the right play because if you check villain will bet and his range is just as wide as it is pf. I believe that this puts you in a horrible reverse implied odds situation that we would rather avoid. It will end up costing a lot to see the river with a hand that has little chance to improve that you don't know is ahead or not. I am perfectly happy folding out worse hands here and winning what is currently in the pot.

[SkeetyMcdoogle]

I bet here all day because tons of people call preflop reraises with any pocket pair, suited connectors, and other random retarded crap. When you re-raise preflop, people put you on AK instantly.

If he calls flop bet, I'd check to him on turn and re-evaluate without a read.

If a Random NL50 player bet 12 into me on that flop, I'd muck QQ-1010 without a read.

Against regulars or other TAG standard players, I'd call and re-evaluate turn.

[KEW]

In a 3 bet pot I will check this hand nearly 100% vs an unknown...I want to be able to snap off a bluff from either small pair or any unpaired hand he may hold...VS an unknown betting the flop will only be called by better hands..

[.xxxx.]

[ QUOTE ]
In a 3 bet pot I will check this hand nearly 100% vs an unknown...I want to be able to snap off a bluff from either small pair or any unpaired hand he may hold...VS an unknown betting the flop will only be called by better hands..

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how're you going to snap off the bluffs from villain? Isn't this line encouraging hime to cbet and take down the pot every time?

[Genz]

I actually don't want to fold out smaller PPs. Why would I? This is close to a WA/WB. There are few scare cards for us except an A. So we don't really care about protection. The only thing that annoys me here are the reverse implied odds that are probably huge when I'm looking at villains AF. That's about the reason that I want to end the hand since I'm oop.

[KEW]

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In a 3 bet pot I will check this hand nearly 100% vs an unknown...I want to be able to snap off a bluff from either small pair or any unpaired hand he may hold...VS an unknown betting the flop will only be called by better hands..

[/ QUOTE ]

how're you going to snap off the bluffs from villain? Isn't this line encouraging hime to cbet and take down the pot every time?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO we are out of position..We are not folding when he bets..How is he taking the pot down everytime with a C-bet????

I am checking to get more value from weaker hands...While still losing the same amount to hands that have us crushed..In a 3 bet pot it's very rare for a villain to fire 2 barrels with a hand that can't beat TPTK...

[the machine]

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In a 3 bet pot I will check this hand nearly 100% vs an unknown...I want to be able to snap off a bluff from either small pair or any unpaired hand he may hold...VS an unknown betting the flop will only be called by better hands..

[/ QUOTE ]

how're you going to snap off the bluffs from villain? Isn't this line encouraging hime to cbet and take down the pot every time?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO we are out of position..We are not folding when he bets..How is he taking the pot down everytime with a C-bet????

I am checking to get more value from weaker hands...While still losing the same amount to hands that have us crushed..In a 3 bet pot it's very rare for a villain to fire 2 barrels with a hand that can't beat TPTK...

[/ QUOTE ]

so when you take this line do you always c/f the turn. seems kinda weak. how about a stop n go, although were not very deep so we may price ourselves in with a 2/3 PSB.



FWIW up until turn action i like KEW's line the best, and its what i did. nh

[Genz]

The turn play against an aggressive player like this is actually the reason I tended to take the pot down on the flop... Unless an A comes, I think bet/fold is a good line on the turn. I probably check/fold the river if he calls, though, unless his bet is tiny. I really like to know his WSD and W$SD to feel comfortable in this spot.

[KEW]

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In a 3 bet pot I will check this hand nearly 100% vs an unknown...I want to be able to snap off a bluff from either small pair or any unpaired hand he may hold...VS an unknown betting the flop will only be called by better hands..

[/ QUOTE ]

how're you going to snap off the bluffs from villain? Isn't this line encouraging hime to cbet and take down the pot every time?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO we are out of position..We are not folding when he bets..How is he taking the pot down everytime with a C-bet????

I am checking to get more value from weaker hands...While still losing the same amount to hands that have us crushed..In a 3 bet pot it's very rare for a villain to fire 2 barrels with a hand that can't beat TPTK...

[/ QUOTE ]

so when you take this line do you always c/f the turn. seems kinda weak. how about a stop n go, although were not very deep so we may price ourselves in with a 2/3 PSB.



FWIW up until turn action i like KEW's line the best, and its what i did. nh

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Why is C/F the turn weak???? If villain fires 2 bullets into the pot ALL we have is a BLUFF catcher...Any bet we make OR call on the turn will commit our entire stack..I think but I can't remember exact stack sizes..

[KEW]

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The turn play against an aggressive player like this is actually the reason I tended to take the pot down on the flop... Unless an A comes, I think bet/fold is a good line on the turn. I probably check/fold the river if he calls, though, unless his bet is tiny. I really like to know his WSD and W$SD to feel comfortable in this spot.

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A bet/fold turn line is terrible..In a 3 bet PF pot after either betting or calling on the flop then leading the turn we will have about 75% or more of our stack in the pot..

[Genz]

might be true. but then your line is horrible: when we c/c the flop, we basically hope that villain will give up and check behind the turn and the river. Looking at his AF, this is daydreaming. So we can either c/f the flop which isn't good, or give us any chance of winning that pot. And for that to happen, we need to bet it somewhere. C/C flop, c/f turn gives us virtually no way to win this pot against an aggressive opponent even if we are ahead.

[Genz]

BTW: I think this is a good example of the "Win the big pots right away" dogma as put out in theory of poker:

The pot is reraised, aka big, we are oop, we could be behind but we have a good chance to be ahead. I want to take this pot down right away. Everything else is heading us into unnecessarily difficult decisions with a mediocre hand out of position against an aggressive player.

[KEW]

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might be true. but then your line is horrible: when we c/c the flop, we basically hope that villain will give up and check behind the turn and the river. Looking at his AF, this is daydreaming. So we can either c/f the flop which isn't good, or give us any chance of winning that pot. And for that to happen, we need to bet it somewhere. C/C flop, c/f turn gives us virtually no way to win this pot against an aggressive opponent even if we are ahead.

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My reply was from the OP I did not notice OP posted stats later in the thread...

So it sounds as if against an aggro post flop villain you are taking this to the felt???? I do not think I am...

Even aggro villains do not fire 2 barrells into a 3 bet pot after being called on the flop with less the TP...Villain is aggro not a maniac...

If villain is as aggro as you seem to think can we B/F the flop safely???? I do not think so..

Villain being aggro is more reason to check the flop...He will not let it the flop check thru..In fact vs an aggro villain I would prolly be more worried if he did check this flop...

[Genz]

So what do you think will villain do with 88,TT,JJ? Will he check behind on the turn? What's your line for the river then? You base your argumentation only on the assumption that he won't fire a 2nd barrel without having at least TP. I can't see your line for the entire hand.

I'm not saying that I'm felting this. But I want to take it down on the flop with my mediocre hand. I might prevent him from bluffing with AJ or AT or whatever. But I just can't see that this villain will shut down completely without at least TP after getting called on the flop so that we can carry it to a SD.

[catfish_01]

What is the villian thinking when you check-call on a king high flop in a 3-bet pot? With my style of play, I'm typically not check-calling there without something good, and some percent of the time if I check-call there the villian would have good reason to shut down on the turn.

In other words, the (even aggro) villian would have to be one who is giving me little credit or respect for me to worry about them double-barreling without a hand that beats TPTK.

[KEW]

Against an aggro villain I can see the value in betting the flop...It may not extract the most value but can make the hand easier to play...If you do bet the flop and villain calls whats the turn plan??? When villain calls our flop lead we are in the same tough spot...



So what do you think will villain do with 88,TT,JJ?

With these hands I would expect villain to either fold or bluff raise us off our hand on the flop...As for the turn I would think if we fire twice I expect him to fold UI 100% of the time..At this point we would be pretty pot stuck and this villain would know that...

If an aggro villain check the turn I will assume MHIG and either bet or check/call...I will C/C if I think villain is more likely to bluff the river then he is to call a bet..

[Genz]

So you think he won't fire twice with these pairs? I think that is reasonable. catfish has a very good point there. I wonder how the rest of the hand went down.

[Lordy]

[ QUOTE ]
Against an aggro villain I can see the value in betting the flop...It may not extract the most value but can make the hand easier to play...If you do bet the flop and villain calls whats the turn plan??? When villain calls our flop lead we are in the same tough spot...



So what do you think will villain do with 88,TT,JJ?

With these hands I would expect villain to either fold or bluff raise us off our hand on the flop...As for the turn I would think if we fire twice I expect him to fold UI 100% of the time..At this point we would be pretty pot stuck and this villain would know that...

If an aggro villain check the turn I will assume MHIG and either bet or check/call...I will C/C if I think villain is more likely to bluff the river then he is to call a bet..

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Let's say we bet, villain calls (let's also assume that villain is sane and not an aggro-tard). He has 2 type of hands : TT-QQ that think you're FOS (especially if it's not your first 3-bet) and hands that completely crush you (KK+, AK, 99)

Now what is he going to do with TT-QQ on the turn when you check ? He's probably checking behind. He thinks there's a good chance you have a whiffed AQ or something and wants to get to showdown. On the river, when you check again he's most likely taking that cheap showdown. I don't think TT and JJ are calling a river bet all that often.

With AK, he's either betting the turn or checking behind and snapping off your bluffs/value betting himself on the river.

With KK, AA, 99, he might decide to just call on the flop (no draws to be scared of) and is most likely betting the turn, trying to get it in.

So basically, I'd bet the flop and shut down if called. c/c flop might get a bit more value from worse hands, but it also invites a river or turn bluff that you might not be able to call.

[catfish_01]

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So basically, I'd bet the flop and shut down if called. c/c flop might get a bit more value from worse hands, but it also invites a river or turn bluff that you might not be able to call.

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A sane but aggro villian might think you're FOS if you cbet and call with hands like TT-QQ, and try to see a cheap showdown in position--I think you're right there.

But if you check and call, do those worse hands really want to try to bluff you on later streets when you've got alot committed in the pot already? Do they think your check-call is more FOS than a lead? I don't think so.

It's still pretty tricky to decide whether or not to lead vs. an aggro villian, and I'd narrow my decision down more based on how they bet on later streets in big pots, but as a default I think I'm sold on the idea of a check-call getting more value from those hands worse than TT+.

[the machine]

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So you think he won't fire twice with these pairs? I think that is reasonable. catfish has a very good point there. I wonder how the rest of the hand went down.

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i led 20 on the turn. he min raised and i called off my last 13. AK goot. i told myself ill bet and fold to a raise but then i just said [censored] it and stuck the rest in cause im a fish

[corsakh]

Bet.