50NL: I rarely bluff scare cards, and need to work on it

[Chomp]

Villain is 47/22/3 over 100 hands, but I'm really not sure if he's good LAG or bad LAG. From previous couple of hands at this table though I'd suspect he's not an idiot. His stack also suggests either good LAG or clown running hot.

I rarely bluff so feel I need to work on it. How's the situation here and how's the bet size?


Thanks.

......................................

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/convert.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($60.67)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($192.68)</font>
CO ($50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($49.25)</font>
SB ($52.20)
BB ($43.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls $4.

Flop: ($10.75) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, MP calls $8.

Turn: ($26.75) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

River: ($26.75) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $16</font>.....

[barryc83]

meh, not terrible, but I dont like this play against a muppet like this. Somehow they find a way to call too much. Against a saner player, I like a river bet of $20 bc this line really looks like theyre just trying to get to showdown.

[paulw]

I've been thinking about the same thing. I play $25 currently so i'm not sure how different $50NL is, but at $25NL bluffing is usually -EV. When I want to bluff it is to help set up an image, or when I think they are going to fold. Setting up an image at this level is a bit of a waste usually because most don't notice it anyway, and there's usually a higher turn over of people at the table, also many people just don't fold and it becomes read dependant.
As for this hand, I think it depends on what you are trying to represent. Would you play KK this way - i.e. you made your set on the turn, board is drawy and you check - then the river bet is only 2/3's the pot. This is what I am trying to get better at when I bluff - what hand can I possibly represent. As played in this hand I would have trouble putting you on a big hand.

[0evg0]

pf raise size sucks

what are you repping by the river?

this is gross

[Machavelli]

Im not sure this is the best spot. He is going to call you with JT, Qx, 66, 99, KK. KK is unlikely b/c of pre-flop action.

His flop calling range is probably: JT, flush draw, Qx, 66, 99, TT, JJ. Your bluff is going to push out only the flush draw (which you might have beat anyway) and TT/JJ.

[0evg0]

add 67s/78s/89s/T9s/A9 + other stuff to his flop call range

and here's a hint: if his vpip is 47, he sucks.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
pf raise size sucks

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Wow, this is standard for me when facing open minraise. You go more? Isn't $5 roughly in line with a standard 4bb+1/limper or indeed a PSB with respect to odds offered?


[ QUOTE ]
what are you repping by the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a Q that was scared of the FD on flop and scared of the K on the turn.


[ QUOTE ]
this is gross

[/ QUOTE ]

For the above 2 reasons or for a few other reasons as well?

[0evg0]

raise to $3.5 or $4, i mix it up

let me guess. you 3bet a $2 raise to like $9, amirite?

[ QUOTE ]
Well, a Q that was scared of the FD on flop and scared of the K on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to tell me which QX hand? remember, you 3bet pf.

[Machavelli]

[ QUOTE ]
add 67s/78s/89s/T9s/A9 + other stuff to his flop call range

and here's a hint: if his vpip is 47, he sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree some of that could maybe go in but I'm personally not a big fan of weighing 100 PT hands. JMHO.

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
add 67s/78s/89s/T9s/A9 + other stuff to his flop call range

and here's a hint: if his vpip is 47, he sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree some of that could maybe go in but I'm personally not a big fan of weighing 100 PT hands. JMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you dont have default reads for things a random does at 50nl, you have major problems. those hands are in the range of a default random 50nl player who minraise/calls preflop

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
raise to $3.5 or $4, i mix it up

let me guess. you 3bet a $2 raise to like $9, amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]


Firstly, I appreciate you trying to give me advice (which I need) but what I don't need is the seriously patronising tone. You are back at the micros here so some of us are not very good players, ok?

You say you make it $3.5 or $4 and that you mix it up, and yet you never raise to $5? Why? Wouldn't that be mixing it up? And is $4 so very different to $5?

And are you not offering better odds to villains who are making speculative pot sweeteners by 3betting to only $3.5?

And these are not rhetorical or confrontatinal questions, they are genuine ones.

On your question, the answer is no. Since $2 is a standard open, I'll standard 3b to $6 or $7 depending on villain, maybe position and game conditions.


[ QUOTE ]
care to tell me which QX hand? remember, you 3bet pf.

[/ QUOTE ]


Let me pick one out of my a$$ just for kicks: AQ.


How'd I do?

[0evg0]

get used to my patronizing tone. i'm guessing you dont read other forums and have missed my other 6k posts. it's nothing personal.

i dont raise to 5 for the same reason i dont open shove AA.

if you're not betting the turn with AQ, you're making a mistake.

the point i was trying to get you to understand on your own is that your QX 3betting range is AQ/KQ. both of which bet the turn (or at least bet the turn if they are playing well), 90+% of the time.

so when you check the turn, your line suddenly makes no sense. and when someone's line makes no sense, and then they bet some more, i call with a pretty ginormous range.

[barryc83]

0evg0,

you make the hero call with JJ/TT there often?

[0evg0]

impossible to say because preflop affects so much of the hand and i'd never minraise/call with TT/JJ

but yeah something like that

[derosnec]

i think you get called alot here. two broadways. no ace. somewhat coordinated. a couple of mid cardfs. your turn check. all that probably leads to you getting called alot.

[0evg0]

we're getting called so often here that if i'm Hero, i'm vbetting TT/JJ on river 100% of the time

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
get used to my patronizing tone. i'm guessing you dont read other forums and have missed my other 6k posts. it's nothing personal.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. ok.

[ QUOTE ]
if you're not betting the turn with AQ, you're making a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't bet turn here with AQ favouring pot control over protection and value, so I'll need to look at that. I guess you are saying with AQ we should be protecting against draws and getting value from worse Qs and that, simultaneously, Ks/random 2p are small part of villain's range.


[ QUOTE ]
the point i was trying to get you to understand on your own is that your QX 3betting range is AQ/KQ. both of which bet the turn (or at least bet the turn if they are playing well), 90+% of the time.

so when you check the turn, your line suddenly makes no sense. and when someone's line makes no sense, and then they bet some more, i call with a pretty ginormous range.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, this is very helpful. What you say about my line suddenly not making sense on the river DOES ring true. I also think another point you are implying maybe that, as a vb with AK/AQ/KQ, the river bet doesn't ring true either.

Fwiw, villain calls with AK and mhing (obv).


Cheers.

[0evg0]

heh, dunno how i didnt catch it.

if you change your pf 3bet to $4, and pretend you have JJ, you have just taken the exact line i would have