Your word or your morals?

[tolbiny]

Hypothetical
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but the secret reveals that he has committed a crime. How severe does the crime have to be before you turn him in? How do you make that valuation? For example say he
1. shoplifted
2. stole a purse
3. beat up another guy
4. beat up a girl
5. robbed a store (with or without a gun)
6. raped a girl
7. molested a child
8. raped/murdered a girl

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetical
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but the secret reveals that he has committed a crime. How severe does the crime have to be before you turn him in? How do you make that valuation? For example say he
1. shoplifted
2. stole a purse
3. beat up another guy
4. beat up a girl
5. robbed a store (with or without a gun)
6. raped a girl
7. molested a child
8. raped/murdered a girl


[/ QUOTE ]

You say that we are not great friends; this makes a difference, as the revelation of the crime would better define my friendship with this person.

For example, if he murdered a girl, for no good stated reason ( such as self defense ), and I realized I was in the presence of a psychopath, then he can not be a friend of mine, and I would turn him into authorities, and agree with the authorities to help them collect extra evidence. I would do the same thing for many lesser crimes. Shoplifting, I don’t care enough about to turn someone in. Slapping a wife or girlfriend is something I don’t get involved with. Mostly because in the past, when I did get involved and beat up a guy, the girl that was abused, freaked out and called the police on me. But at any rate, I wouldn’t remain friends with someone who thought shoplifting was cool.

If he were a truly good friend of mine, it would be different. No friend of mine will commit a vicious crime a second time ( the first time would be some sort of bizarre mistake). I would explain to him that if he did ( do it a second time), I will kill him myself or turn him into authorities or cut his nuts off, or anything I felt would save innocent lives.

[BPA234]

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Hypothetical
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but the secret reveals that he has committed a crime. How severe does the crime have to be before you turn him in? How do you make that valuation? For example say he
1. shoplifted
2. stole a purse
3. beat up another guy
4. beat up a girl
5. robbed a store (with or without a gun)
6. raped a girl
7. molested a child
8. raped/murdered a girl


[/ QUOTE ]

You say that we are not great friends; this makes a difference, as the revelation of the crime would better define my friendship with this person.

For example, if he murdered a girl, for no good stated reason ( such as self defense ), and I realized I was in the presence of a psychopath, then he can not be a friend of mine, and I would turn him into authorities, and agree with the authorities to help them collect extra evidence. I would do the same thing for many lesser crimes. Shoplifting, I don’t care enough about to turn someone in. Slapping a wife or girlfriend is something I don’t get involved with. Mostly because in the past, when I did get involved and beat up a guy, the girl that was abused, freaked out and called the police on me. But at any rate, I wouldn’t remain friends with someone who thought shoplifting was cool.

If he were a truly good friend of mine, it would be different. No friend of mine will commit a vicious crime a second time ( the first time would be some sort of bizarre mistake). I would explain to him that if he did ( do it a second time), I will kill him myself or turn him into authorities or cut his nuts off, or anything I felt would save innocent lives.

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Does your answer apply to 6,7, & 8?

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Does your answer apply to 6,7, & 8?



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Yes. I would turn the op's defined friend in for molesting a child or raping a girl. Most likely, I would turn anyone in for these things. If someone were a very good friend, my friendship would be revoked if I found out he was a child molester. Somehow, I see more ways of justifying murder than molesting a child.

But the bottom line is: whenever a good friend approaches me and wants to tell me a secret that's troubling him, I tell him not to tell me if it involves him murdering someone. As far as rape or child molestation, I simply can't envision any of my friends doing this ( except in the case of some weird statutory rape ).

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetical
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but the secret reveals that he has committed a crime. How severe does the crime have to be before you turn him in? How do you make that valuation? For example say he
1. shoplifted
2. stole a purse
3. beat up another guy
4. beat up a girl
5. robbed a store (with or without a gun)
6. raped a girl
7. molested a child
8. raped/murdered a girl

[/ QUOTE ]

Since chez would cruficy me if I ever went back on my word, I would never enter into an agreement like this, at least if I thought there was a legitimate chance that some very serious crime was happening.

If I did, however, I'd say 6, 7 and 8 bring about enough good to offset my indiscretion.

[arahant]

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Hypothetical
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but the secret reveals that he has committed a crime. How severe does the crime have to be before you turn him in? How do you make that valuation? For example say he
1. shoplifted
2. stole a purse
3. beat up another guy
4. beat up a girl
5. robbed a store (with or without a gun)
6. raped a girl
7. molested a child
8. raped/murdered a girl

[/ QUOTE ]

Since chez would cruficy me if I ever went back on my word, I would never enter into an agreement like this, at least if I thought there was a legitimate chance that some very serious crime was happening.

If I did, however, I'd say 6, 7 and 8 bring about enough good to offset my indiscretion.

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What if you were a psychiatrist? I assume you would observe confidentiality?

[oe39]

snitches and talkers get ditches and walkers

[chezlaw]

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Since chez would cruficy me if I ever went back on my word, I would never enter into an agreement like this, at least if I thought there was a legitimate chance that some very serious crime was happening.

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Absolutely, the mistake is ever to enter such an agreement, we always reserve our right to act. We may agree not to act in a wide range of situations but not all unspecified situations.

If we make the mistake of making such a promise then in some situations it will have to be broken. This is true of professionals as well and it should be pretty clear that if you tell your laywer/doctor/whatever where you've hidden the nuclear device then they will tell the authorities.

chez

[vhawk01]

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Hypothetical
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but the secret reveals that he has committed a crime. How severe does the crime have to be before you turn him in? How do you make that valuation? For example say he
1. shoplifted
2. stole a purse
3. beat up another guy
4. beat up a girl
5. robbed a store (with or without a gun)
6. raped a girl
7. molested a child
8. raped/murdered a girl

[/ QUOTE ]

Since chez would cruficy me if I ever went back on my word, I would never enter into an agreement like this, at least if I thought there was a legitimate chance that some very serious crime was happening.

If I did, however, I'd say 6, 7 and 8 bring about enough good to offset my indiscretion.

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What if you were a psychiatrist? I assume you would observe confidentiality?

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I think the laws are designed in pretty intricate, clear ways in order to guide professionals in just such a position. I'm pretty sure imminent harm is the key guideline, and thus a psychiatrist should not tell. I'm not entirely positive that this is true, however.

I wouldn't have much of a problem with not breaking this confidentiality, btw. It may seem simplistic and naive and foolish (to chez /images/graemlins/grin.gif) to simply rely on my vow of confidentiality while a rapist or murderer goes free, but the net harm caused by psychiatrists breaking confidentiality at will greatly outweighs the harm caused by not bringing this guy to justice.

[chezlaw]

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It may seem simplistic and naive and foolish (to chez ) to simply rely on my vow of confidentiality while a rapist or murderer goes free, but the net harm caused by psychiatrists breaking confidentiality at will greatly outweighs the harm caused by not bringing this guy to justice.


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Its not naive or foolish at all but its still not an agreement not to act in any situation. the key difference with the established professions is they have an explicit agreement with everybody within society i.e. as a psychiatrists you have an agrement with society that you won't tell us if someone you treat is a rapist.

chez

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but ...

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...nothing is absolute.

If he is suffering from the delusion that there is some absolute that I am bound to then that is his problem. Promising somebody you'll keep a secret ( a promise I would rarely make even with the chosen few) doesn't slide it to the top of the morality chain, not only because there is no hierarchy of morals.

My secret-keeping bond would typically weaken around 5 but only because the early ones would not actionable in most circumstances. Telling what to whom.

Aside- keeping your word rates pretty high in life so one should avoid ever getting into this spot, my reaction would be " you decide what to tell, I'll decide what to stay mum on."

I hate secrets, luckyme

[Siegmund]

Not sure I'd make that promise, but given that I did...

Curiously, I'd be less likely to tattle on 5-8 than 1-4. Apparently I am the only responder to do so.

The first few are situations where no great jail sentences are involved, where one person's intervention might well be able to "make everyone whole" again... where I might, in some situations, be persuaded that there is no downside for anyone if I act.

The more serious crimes... you can't un-murder someone the way you can give a purse back. It's debatable - in my opinion - whether what happens to some of these criminals is just. It's also highly doubtful that this individual is going to get away with it even if I keep my mouth shut, assuming he really did commit the crimes mentioned. If the guy is a joker, he might just be seeing how I react, and not really want arrested and then freed; if the guy is armed and dangerous,he's a lot more likely to come after me between the time I tattle and he's arrested.

Anyway, I'd prefer not to tattle on any of them, but I can see myself doing it for the small things, not the big ones.

[Philo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetical
A person you know, not a great friend, but better than a casual acquaintance offers to tell you something secret and interesting (In his opinion) if you promise not to tell or divulge the details to anyone in any way. You agree fully intending on keeping your word, but the secret reveals that he has committed a crime. How severe does the crime have to be before you turn him in? How do you make that valuation? For example say he
1. shoplifted
2. stole a purse
3. beat up another guy
4. beat up a girl
5. robbed a store (with or without a gun)
6. raped a girl
7. molested a child
8. raped/murdered a girl

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Wow, if he did all that I think I'd have to turn him in.