50NL: I just can't accept being floated

[Chomp]

I feel I'm getting floated all the time and find it really hard to just lay down made hands to such a transparent play as a float.

Here's an example, though the specific hand isn't so important as the general theory:

..................

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/convert.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($49.25)
UTG ($51.20)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($54.50)</font>
Button ($37.25)
Hero ($51)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, MP calls $4.

Turn: ($13.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $11</font>, Hero calls $11.

River: ($35.50) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $25</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $60.50

Villain 20/7/1.5
.........................

If it is villain's flop plan to float me, he can do it with all his his pf limp/calling range, say:

Board: 9c 2s 8d 7c

Hand 0: 33.740% {TT-22, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, 65s, ATo+, KJo+, QJo, JTo, 65o}
Hand 1: 66.260% {66}

(Fwiw, in this hand, a second barrel seemed a bit much with my modest holding, and crai is clearly ludicrous).

So should I just fold turn in spots like this? Isn't that so exploitable? Won't I just get run over if I am consistently folding turns here? Or is villain's image the most important thing in deciding if I am being floated? Here, should I just consider that villain's low aggro stat makes it more likely he has a hand than he is pulling a move?

Really frustrated and confused.

Thanks.

[theRoot]

This can frustrate the hell out of me too.

However, I would fold this on the turn. Chances are that he's betting the river too, which in this case happened. You can make trips or even a straight, but even most of those aren't particularly strong here.

To counter this strategy you have to play your strong hands like this too, once in a while. Especially against opponents who love to float. That way you make profit and your opponents will soon realize that a turncheck doesn't always mean a weak hand. When that's the case you can play your weaker hands like this some more again.

//edit
It's probably more correct to try and analyze this particular hand somewhat more, but since you asked for a somewhat more general strategy, I didn't.

[Xamot]

i would fire at the turn if i thought that the villain could fold middle pair or a weak top pair.

given how you played it, i would fold and not think about it.

[bluffbetter]

I don't think villian would have middle pair/weak top pair here after calling the raise preflop. If he knows your stats and you are raising tight then I doubt it would be a profitable play to bluff here, I would have thought nearly all players might try to induce a bluff on the turn sometimes against one opponent so surely villain would be wary of this?

[Xamot]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think villian would have middle pair/weak top pair here after calling the raise preflop. If he knows your stats and you are raising tight then I doubt it would be a profitable play to bluff here, I would have thought nearly all players might try to induce a bluff on the turn sometimes against one opponent so surely villain would be wary of this?

[/ QUOTE ]

good point

do you think villain would fold AQ, AJ, or A10? we did raise preflop.

[bluffbetter]

Yes with his stats I think villain will fold A10 and AJ and might fold AQ, althoguh I'm not sure he should fold that because hero could raise decent pairs here in position but A10 and AJ would definitely be bad calls against most people here I think.

[doppelganger]

[grunch]

This is where I find villains fold to CB stats to be useful. If it's high then you can assume that a flop call means he caught a piece of the board or at least has something he likes and play the turn accordingly. Chronic floaters will reveal it in their stats and that's when I know a 2nd barrel might be needed.

[Kasane]

I don't think this is a float. Just doesn't feel like it (I do have the benefit of seeing river action, though). Floating is more often done out of CO or Button to a raise from UTG-MP. It gets heads up, and floater likes to think you've missed the flop -- and is often right. Floating to a raise out of the blinds is just ... well, I don't do it and I float a fair bit against the right opponents.

pf raise is a bit small, too. I'd go up a smidgen more for being OOP.

It sucks, but I think I fold that turn. Ton of two pairs, straights, overpairs and sets out there, and how are you going to get paid off if you hit the straight? I guess you're hoping it's complete air a good amount of the time -- not often enough I'd say.


In general, you'll have to second barrel, crai, and c/c turns with a slightly wider range when you're getting floated. Just a bit more -- If you double barred one quarter of the time, make it 35 or so. Don't go all maniac with it.