NL25 KK with A high flop

[PoliticalRefugee]

Ok, firstly he's played a stupid little min raise so is $1.5 ok here? It's what I usually do.

On the flop i doubt he'd holded 45 and theres no flush draws out so the Ace is my only problem. Now I dont like raising because I only get called by an Ace or a bluff which could ultimately make me fold. I check hoping he's holding JJ QQ or something which will make him bluff the turn.

Now he's bet the turn do I call/raise or fold.

1) Folding I don't like, I've showed weakness on that flop so he could easily be betting
2) Calling, I like this here as I can then call a moderate river bet that he might be making with a lower pp. If he bets hard then I probably fold
3) Raising, surely if I raise I'm chasing out the hands that will try and bluff me on the river and asking for trouble from the hands that beat me, i.e. any Ace?

Anyway if someone can comment on my thought process that would be great.

Cheers

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($25)
Hero ($36.75)
SB ($14.40)
BB ($31.50)
UTG ($9.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls $1.

Flop: ($3.35) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($3.35) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $3.35</font>, Hero ??????

[Kimpan]

I would c-bet this.

[tehDiceman]

i cbet this as well in position. if he calls you will probably have to slowdown unless you improve.

[C4LL4W4Y]

I make it more like $2.25 preflop. Also you don't have to c-bet here, checking behind induces a lot of bluffs, but it's also going to make him think a weak ace is good. It all depends on what his minraising range is. Include stats or reads next time.

[PoliticalRefugee]

Sorry was pkaying without pokertracker as was on a mac so no stats.

My thinking with the weak ace is that if he's calling with A7 then he's hit and will call it down, so by checking behind he thinks I'll fire out a bet and when i call I expect him to check on the river and I can check behind. A decent Ace waiting for me to c-bet checks then leads turn and then river for a fair amount which I can then get away from or call if the odds are too good.

[Pegasus]

You need to find out if your KK is good on that flop so bet right out...even if he calls it doesn't mean you're beat, additionally a check raise on his part doesn't mean you're beat either he could just be trying to see if a lower PP is good (this is very player specific though).

If he calls you should play pot control and try to get to showdown.

As played you're in a difficult spot as now he probably thinks you're weak and can make it very tough for you.

[goat_beard]

Why did you raise from 0.5 to 1.5, firstly I would raise at least to 2$ to fold out weak aces A2-AJ etc... also you should always be leading or betting A high flops (HU) as many times they will not be holding the A or will give you credit for a higher A. The pot is ~3.50 so I would fire a ~3$ bet into this. If he calls there I would check behind on turn, and call a small bet on river if he fires.

[Waingro]

1. raise more pf
2. flop check is good, nobody in the history of NL25 has ever folded an ace here
3. call turn
4. fold to a moderate to big river bet

[Doug Funnie II]

$2.25 preflop.

I cbet this flop just because its cheaper than calling turn and river when you show weakness on the flop.

As played I'd just fold turn.

[bozzer]

no problem with checking the flop in position. basic WA/WB folks.

That does mean you should probably stick around on the turn. The question is do you raise or just call?

Raising costs ~$12 (somewhat less than a PSR of $18 due to RR pot). If he bets into you on the river you can fold. If he checks the river you can decide whether to check or value bet. Either way, this should be the last money you're putting into the hand unless you're confident about winning more.

Calling costs ~$3. If he bets again you then have a tough decision. For argument's sake let's say if he pots it again you'll fold, but if he halfpots it you'll call. That'll cost another $4.5. The breakeven point for how much you commit to the hand is if you were to call a PSB ($9+$3).

Calling here gets more value from bluffs, while raising turns your hand into a bluff (might fold weak aces). I call and call up to a PSB on the river.

[jose_marti]

[ QUOTE ]
I would c-bet this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't ever c-bet this.

[PoliticalRefugee]

Ok, firstly the second post in this thread was by tehDiceman. I may be wrong but are you not playing 5NL?? If people answer here when they are playing these stakes then at least make that clear and put the reason why you would c-bet. If you can't beat 5NL/10NL - something that took me 2 weeks, then don't offer advice, join in in the conversation.

I don't want some amateur who can't beat 25NL telling me how to play. /end rant

Secondly I didn't want to c-bet this flop as if I'm called then I'm dead meat basically even to JJ QQ as I'm not gonna be putting any more money in the pot.

After reading an article on WA/WB I feel more confident in my play.

Thanks for those who commented and gave decent reasons. It is why I joined these forums

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bozzer]

wow wtf? the guy gave some advice to a 10 post poster. just because you play 25nl doesn't mean you're better than him.

besides, 'advice' doesn't have to be 'accurate': he's improving by posting and getting involved in the discussion. all the advice here comes with that caveat.

[Xanta]

$1.5 is my standard preflop, I just like to treat minraisers as 2 limpers. Checking the flop is good. It allows you to get value out of lower pocket pairs, and you will never ever fold an ace with a cbet. On the turn, the same kind of logic applies. Folding is pretty weak, but again raising chases out all the middle pocket pairs in his range, and he's rarely folding an ace. I call here, and might fold the river depending on how big he bets.

[Xanta]

This thread makes me cry.

1) The merits of a post lie in the logic of the posted content, not the level that the poster plays or how well they beat it. You come off like an ass and it makes me not want to post in your threads anymore. He should post a reason (especially since he's wrong) but that was uncalled for.
2) Mega-lol at the guys saying raise more preflop to fold out A2-AJ. You realize that we're a 72/28 favorite, don't you? Not only that, but we'll have a very good idea of when we're beat on the flop, it's not like we're pricing in 56 that can stack us when he flops a well hidden hand. Oh god that logic is awful.
3) IF YOU BET THE FLOP, YOU DO NOT FIND OUT IF YOUR KK IS GOOD. IF YOU BET THE FLOP, VILLAIN WILL NEVER FOLD ANY ACE - PEOPLE DONT CALL ACE RAG PREFLOP SO THAT THEY CAN FOLD TOP PAIR TO A CBET. IF YOU BET THE FLOP, YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD CHANCE ON PUSHING OUT 44-QQ WHICH YOU CAN GET A LOT OF VALUE FROM ON LATER STREETS IF YOU DON'T CBET. IF YOU CHECK THE FLOP, YOU CONTROL THE POT SIZE WITH A MARGINAL HAND, ALLOW YOURSELF TO GET VALUE FROM WORSE, AND YOU DON'T TURN POCKET KINGS INTO A BLUFF



HYACHACHACHACHACHACHA

[jose_marti]

[ QUOTE ]

3) IF YOU BET THE FLOP, YOU DO NOT FIND OUT IF YOUR KK IS GOOD. IF YOU BET THE FLOP, VILLAIN WILL NEVER FOLD ANY ACE - PEOPLE DONT CALL ACE RAG PREFLOP SO THAT THEY CAN FOLD TOP PAIR TO A CBET. IF YOU BET THE FLOP, YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD CHANCE ON PUSHING OUT 44-QQ WHICH YOU CAN GET A LOT OF VALUE FROM ON LATER STREETS IF YOU DON'T CBET. IF YOU CHECK THE FLOP, YOU CONTROL THE POT SIZE WITH A MARGINAL HAND, ALLOW YOURSELF TO GET VALUE FROM WORSE, AND YOU DON'T TURN POCKET KINGS INTO A BLUFF

HYACHACHACHACHACHACHA

[/ QUOTE ]

QFTMFS

[PoliticalRefugee]

OK, I read back what I said and admit that I was a little out of line.

It's just that I've put in my original post what my thought process has been and then am being given wrong (I think I am entitled to say this) advice by somebody who from reading previous posts is not playing at a high level.

That is not to say I think that he is a bad player or I'm better than him, but that I don't want to take his direction of play at face value.

@bozzer: Obviously we are all here to learn, you say that "he's improving by posting and getting involved in the discussion." The point that I'm trying to make is that saying "I usually c-bet" is not discussing, it's stating a play. I want to know what people's thought processes and why they would c-bet are and what mine should be as that is much more beneficial to me and I believe to others reading the post.

Again sorry if I've caused offence.

[Pegasus]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, firstly the second post in this thread was by tehDiceman. I may be wrong but are you not playing 5NL?? If people answer here when they are playing these stakes then at least make that clear and put the reason why you would c-bet. If you can't beat 5NL/10NL - something that took me 2 weeks, then don't offer advice, join in in the conversation.

I don't want some amatuer who can't beat 25NL telling me how to play. /end rant

Secondly I didn't want to c-bet this flop as if I'm called then I'm dead meat basically even to JJ QQ as I'm not gonna be putting any more money in the pot.

After reading an article on WA/WB I feel more confident in my play.

Thanks for those who commented and gave decent reasons. It is why I joined these forums

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Then go post this in HSNL

[Kasane]

You need to give us a read of your opponent. You've been playing him -- it doesn't matter if you have PT or not. Playing w/o PT is good for your game if you're observant. I found playing on my Mac w/o PT has been very, very, very good for my game. Improved my handreading wonderfully.

So, what kind of guy is your min-raiser? Is he doing it a lot? a little? Only raise he every makes? Is it small pairs, A-rag, or monsters?

I'd raise flop a tad more, as it is, you're giving pretty good odds to any pair or suited connector type hand. But you're IP, so it's not that bad at all. Just a quibble. If you're in the blinds, I'd definitely pop it more.

I think you answered your own questions on the turn.