Probability Question for David Sklansky

[Borodog]

Others are welcome as well, but David is the master of these sorts of problems, so I'd like to hear his response.

Two of my students missed Test 4 and had to take a makeup. They took the test at the same time, in the same room, sitting at the same table. The test on the left is the male's, the test on the right the female's. He got 14/19, she 15/19. His previous test scores are significantly better than hers. In case you can't tell from the picture, on her test, on number 11 she had originally selected D, but then erased it and chose C. The girl is of above average attractiveness.

What is the probability that cheating occurred?

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/Borodog/DSC02431.jpg

[vhawk01]

Wouldn't he need to know some estimate of the likelihood of each person getting any given question correctly? You could easily craft a test where this was 100:1 and a near lock to be cheating.

[DougShrapnel]

Zero, but I'd estimate that teamwork occured 1. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't he need to know some estimate of the likelihood of each person getting any given question correctly? You could easily craft a test where this was 100:1 and a near lock to be cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. The average on the test was 10.3/19, with a standard deviation of 3.6. None of the questions were "gimmes." There were several other students that took the makeup, at the same time, at the same table, and their tests looked completely different. 2 students scored 8s, but their 8s were very different 8s, with little overlap between the questions they got wrong.

[Borodog]

Also remember, it's not just a matter of getting the same problems correct; it's also a matter of getting the incorrect problems incorrect in the same way.

[surftheiop]

Not that im going to guess on a percentage but 2 ?s (seeing as accusing someone of cheating in college is really serious).
Did they know each other well? If they did would studying together/in the same group be a feasible explanation for them making similar mistakes? Also on the ones they got wrong, did most of the class choose the same wrong answers if they got the problems in question wrong or were their wrong answers more unique? (This is based on my experience taking highschool tests when it seems most people whol get a question wrong do so for the same reason)

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Not that im going to guess on a percentage but 2 ?s (seeing as accusing someone of cheating in college is really serious).
Did they know each other well? If they did would studying together/in the same group be a feasible explanation for them making similar mistakes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be, but they are in 2 different sections.

[ QUOTE ]
Also on the ones they got wrong, did most of the class choose the same wrong answers

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
if they got the problems in question wrong or were their wrong answers more unique? (This is based on my experience taking highschool tests when it seems most people whol get a question wrong do so for the same reason)

[/ QUOTE ]

[surftheiop]

Out of curiousity,
when skalansky comes in here and says they cheated with 99.9 percent certaintity what sort of action are you going to take?

[Shadowrun]

This is all coming from a current college student so take it as you will.

I think they are cheating 95% of the time. I do have a few questions for you.

1. Was the test the exact same version for both of them, or was their only 1 version of the exam?

2. Go to facebook.com make an account and look if they are friends (i would this for you, but i think you'd want to protect their privacy), also you do not need to be accepting as a "friend" by them to see who they are friends with.

3. If they are friends on facebook i think they are cheating 99.5%.

4. Even if you do not want to accuse them of cheating (out of lack of evidence) offer them each, or even the whole class some EC (i think as little as 1% would the job, and is likely to not change their grade) and ask them to the problems + show their work (questions should be using similiar principals to the ones used in this exam)

If the boy or the girl is totally unable to show their work, they likelyhood of cheating to me goes to 100%.

[jay_shark]

Don't you know if they're friends outside of class ? Do they usually sit or converse to each other ?

I also think the Facebook idea is a good one . Check to see if they're friends which will improve your case against them cheating on the exam .

[PairTheBoard]

I would question the students and go for a confession. Give them a plea bargain. If they confess let them retake the test with both getting the lowest score between them on the retake - or maybe with points taken off their own score. Tell them if they don't confess you consider the evidence strong for cheating and you will have to take the matter to higher authorities. Opening it up for class discussion might be one such higher authority. You can also take into consideration your read on whether they are lying if they refuse to confess.

As for the strength of the evidence for cheating, you could argue that even assuming they both knew the answers to the same 14 questions - which is a longshot already - the chance that they would randomly guess the same way among the 4 incorrect choices on the 4 questions they both missed is 1 in 256. Without thinking about it too much that looks like about 99.6% confidence that the wrong guesses were copied by one of them.

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

btw, there are Statistics Experts here who could probably give you a more rigorous statistical inference than my 1 chance in 256. However, I don't think Sklansky is one of them. He's much better at computing odds on God.

PairTheBoard

[arahant]

wow. why are you even asking?
It's greater than 99.9% unless this was a really weird test.
I can't even see where their answers differ.

However, don't discount the possibility that only one was cheating by watching the other (presumably the worse student). This is actually more likely, imho, despite my basic assumption that cute girls are smart, chaste, and pure.

[Wyman]

[ QUOTE ]
btw, there are Statistics Experts here who could probably give you a more rigorous statistical inference than my 1 chance in 256. However, I don't think Sklansky is one of them. He's much better at computing odds on God.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

Zing!

I'd expect that they could dismiss some wrong answers, and thus there would be a higher probability (than 1/256) that they randomly guess the same wrong answers.

I have a facebook account, and I gave a quiz once and suspected cheating. I looked on facebook, and one of their "status updates" was "[Name] is a cheater."

I love the guilty conscience. The student had dropped before the next class.

FWIW, I agree with confronting them. Tell them your job is not to accuse them of or judge them for cheating. Your job is to take any situation which has overwhelming evidence of cheating and present it to the appropriate higher-ups. This way you come off as the coach/helper/advocate, rather than the complete adversary (as much as this is possible). Alternately, I've also simply said to the class: "There was clear evidence of cheating on this quiz/exam. I will be presenting these cases to the [honor council, dean, dept chair, or whatever-the-heck you have]. If you'd like to fess up before-hand, we can possibly work something out."

Seems to work.

[T50_Omaha8]

This is extremely, extremely unlikely making only one assumption: the questions they miss are random.

Let's say she walked in destined to miss 4 and he walked in destined to miss 5. What's the probability that he magically missed all 4 of the ones she missed?

There are 15 ways he can do this--by missing the 4 she missed and any other random problem. There are, of course, 19c5 ways he can miss 5 problems. That leaves a 15/11,628 or very close to a 1/800 chance that he misses the same 4 problems she did. This does not take into account that they guessed the exact same answer on each problem.

Some trains of thought will undermine this probability: students may have been more likely to miss those problems, for example. But the untrained eye tends to vastly overestimate the likelihood of this type of anomaly occuring by random chance. If you confront them, make sure you back it up with some of our arguments.

I say you make both of them take it again unannounced, switch up the question and answer order, and check the results. It is likely that one of them will have a very similar outcome and the other will score much more poorly.

[doucy]

need pics of girl to make an accurate estimate

[Phil153]

If you're going to do an odds analysis, one thing to consider is how many exams you've administered. For example, I got a royal flush the other day. You also have to adjust for the fact that they may have studied together, and easy to answer questions, which means that the 19C5 number is way too higher.

I'd say 90%. BTW, is it policy at your uni to allow people to sit together during exams? We always had rules like 2 table spacing, multiple exams for people seated together, etc.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
You also have to adjust for the fact that they may have studied together,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is what I was thinking of. I studied with hot chicks as often as possible.

[durrrr]

post the questions(all of them if possible)... also any other spots where one/both erased anything?

atm i'd say ~60-70%

edit: what class etc.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You also have to adjust for the fact that they may have studied together,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is what I was thinking of. I studied with hot chicks as often as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, also the questions could just be off a bit. The fact that they had a different answer where the girl (who does worse usually) was wrong, makes it FARRR less likely imo they are cheating than if this wasn't there. W/o this info id say ~90-92%

[RJT]

Quick hijack. The only question she answered differently is #11. She got this one correct and he got it wrong I assume as she got a higher score by one. She answered it as C.

Like they say when in doubt answer C. - Scary, isn't it? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bluesbassman]

How was this test proctored?

Also, how many (if any) of the problems were the same/similar as problems on previous tests to which the students reasonably had access? If they studied together by working previous tests, it's more likely they would answer similar questions the same way. I know when I was an undergrad, I would sometimes study that way with classmates, and we would often (without cheating) achieve similar grades and tend to answer the same questions the same way.

[thylacine]

Looks like cheating/copying (may be unilateral) to me.

Check out your institution's policies. Where I am most of the suggestions in this thread are absolutely forbidden. Here you must either grade at face value, or make a formal accusation.

Talk to the appropriate person in your department, and see what they suggest.

Also, watch them like a hawk in the final exam. Repeated `coincidences' seal the deal.

[Enrique]

Cheating for sure.
I don't understand how some of the posters said "60-70%". My guess is that they have never graded exams. I'd say the probability that cheating occured is 100%, not 99.9, 100%.
I know the probabilty is < 1, but it is certainly higher than .999, probably higher than .99999, so for all practical matters it is 1. People have already given compelling reasons why it is super high (the argument for at least 1/800). I think you could argue (1/256)(1/800) by combining the arguments of PairTheBoard and the guy who said 1/800.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Cheating for sure.
I don't understand how some of the posters said "60-70%". My guess is that they have never graded exams. I'd say the probability that cheating occured is 100%, not 99.9, 100%.
I know the probabilty is < 1, but it is certainly higher than .999, probably higher than .99999, so for all practical matters it is 1. People have already given compelling reasons why it is super high (the argument for at least 1/800). I think you could argue (1/256)(1/800) by combining the arguments of PairTheBoard and the guy who said 1/800.

[/ QUOTE ]

Higher than .9999? That seems absurd. Heck, any reasonable interpretation of a random-guessing strategy is going to give this more than .0001% of the time.

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Higher than .9999? That seems absurd. Heck, any reasonable interpretation of a random-guessing strategy is going to give this more than .0001% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
We're talking two separate individuals, at the exact same time. Are you saying the probability of them both random guessing the exact same answers, at the exact same time, is >.0001? Or if only one of them random guessed, what is the probability the guessing person would have the exact same answers as the non-guessing person -- still >.0001?

I don't think so. But I'm no probability expert.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Higher than .9999? That seems absurd. Heck, any reasonable interpretation of a random-guessing strategy is going to give this more than .0001% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
We're talking two separate individuals, at the exact same time. Are you saying the probability of them both random guessing the exact same answers, at the exact same time, is >.0001? Or if only one of them random guessed, what is the probability the guessing person would have the exact same answers as the non-guessing person -- still >.0001?

I don't think so. But I'm no probability expert.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats why I added the caveat 'any reasonable interpretation.' Of course, if they randomly guessed for ALL of the questions, this would be far more unlikely than .0001. But it isn't unreasonable at all to grant them all (or most) of the correct answers, since those aren't going to be guesses. Even the incorrect answers aren't going to be entirely guesses, since some answers are more obviously wrong, and we don't know how many choices there were to select from.

[Borodog]

Update. I spoke to the guy briefly since I do not suspect him of copying off of her paper (he is an easy A student).

1) Her attractiveness is not an issue with him, if you get my drift.
2) They know each other, they were on the cheerleading team together at some point in the past, but do not "hang out" or study together.

Also, there are no previous tests available. I write all my tests from scratch. What can I say; I'm a pervert for writing physics problems and drawing overly elaborate diagrams.

If you were to run a computer simulation where each student had a 75% chance of getting a question right (a good assumption given the 2 grades), and if they got it wrong each incorrect answer had a 25% chance of being chosen, I think the probability of those two students independently creating identical tests (which was the state before the erasure on number 11) would be very, very low. Even if certain incorrect answers are more likely to be chosen than others on certain problems, this might increase the probability, by it would still be incredibly low.

In fact, there should be a straitforward way to calculate this, right? The chances that both students will get the same problem either right or wrong is 10/16. There are 19 problems. So the chances of them getting all problems right or wrong in lockstep is about (10/16)^19 ~ 1.3x10^-4, or almost 7,555:1 against.

This neglects the need to get the incorrect problems incorrect in the correct way, but I'm too lazy to figure that out right now.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
Update. I spoke to the guy briefly since I do not suspect him of copying off of her paper (he is an easy A student).

1) Her attractiveness is not an issue with him, if you get my drift.



[/ QUOTE ]
I don't, actually.

[ QUOTE ]

2) They know each other, they were on the cheerleading team together at some point in the past



[/ QUOTE ]

OOOhhhhh...NOW I get it!

[Borodog]

This is not a rigorous way to calculate it, but what the hell. Assuming 5 incorrect responses, there is a 1/4 chance that they will get each wrong answer wrong in the same way. Hence there is approximately a (1/4)^5 chance that they will get all 5 wrong in the same way, or 1/1024.

That brings the total odds against to something in the neighborhood of 7.7 million to 1 against.

If I did that (approximately) correctly.

[hmkpoker]

As someone who routinely cheated on college MC exams, I can say that the "friend" variable (whether they know each other or not) is irrelevent. Cheating usually involves a parasite and a host, and if the host is a worthy host (appears to know his stuff, as you have suggested), then he will be totally focused on the test and oblivious to any irrelevent outside information, like the chance that he's being leeched. The parasite will be aware of this and will use it to her advantage.

The parasite always comes from the right. Unless we're dealing with left-handed people or funny seat desks, it is almost impossible to leech answers from the person to your right. It is very easy to sit in a slouchy, relaxed manner with your body and gaze tilted leftward enough to make it look like you're just casually taking the test, and just shift your eyes to the answer keys. The target's writing hand often creates an obstruction, but if you're patient you'll catch a glimpse at the answers. Cheating from the host on the left is suicide; you cannot do it and make it look like you're taking the test.

My guess is that, unless many of your students got the same wrong answers (a high number of A's for 7, B's for 8, E's for 13, etc), the girl cheated. On question 11 she read the guy's answer and auto-marked it, then read the question while she was waiting to leech and it happened to be something she remembered from class that he didn't.

In the future, just create different test forms; same questions, but arranged in different orders on different tests. It completely solves the problem.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
As someone who routinely cheated on college MC exams, I can say that the "friend" variable (whether they know each other or not) is irrelevent. Cheating usually involves a parasite and a host, and if the host is a worthy host (appears to know his stuff, as you have suggested), then he will be totally focused on the test and oblivious to any irrelevent outside information, like the chance that he's being leeched. The parasite will be aware of this and will use it to her advantage.

The parasite always comes from the right. Unless we're dealing with left-handed people or funny seat desks, it is almost impossible to leech answers from the person to your right. It is very easy to sit in a slouchy, relaxed manner with your body and gaze tilted leftward enough to make it look like you're just casually taking the test, and just shift your eyes to the answer keys. The target's writing hand often creates an obstruction, but if you're patient you'll catch a glimpse at the answers. Cheating from the host on the left is suicide; you cannot do it and make it look like you're taking the test.

My guess is that, unless many of your students got the same wrong answers (a high number of A's for 7, B's for 8, E's for 13, etc), the girl cheated. On question 11 she read the guy's answer and auto-marked it, then read the question while she was waiting to leech and it happened to be something she remembered from class that he didn't.

In the future, just create different test forms; same questions, but arranged in different orders on different tests. It completely solves the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never cheated on any exam for my own benefit. I have, however, assisted other students in exams and on homework assignments. I can confirm what hmk is saying here.

[.Alex.]

Just because the chances of them having identical tests is 1% doesn't mean there is a 99% chance they cheated for the same reason that me getting a royal flush in a single hand of poker doesn't mean the deck is rigged. Bayes theorem. In this case, it probably doesn't matter much because the likelyhood against identical tests is so overwhelming.

[pnazari]

doesnt ur school have software that detects this sort of thing. at my school on the first page of all MC tests they have it in big bold letters...maybe they are bluffing?

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a rigorous way to calculate it, but what the hell. Assuming 5 incorrect responses, there is a 1/4 chance that they will get each wrong answer wrong in the same way. Hence there is approximately a (1/4)^5 chance that they will get all 5 wrong in the same way, or 1/1024.

That brings the total odds against to something in the neighborhood of 7.7 million to 1 against.

If I did that (approximately) correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

your stats are wayyy off. The girl got 4/18 wrong while the guy got 5/18, and these overlapped... assuming 75% the odds are wayyy > 7m-1 (~20k/{students in class x students in class-1}/2 to1 off the top of my head). However your forgetting that some questions are easier than others. I could probably write a test which if i gave it to a 20person class, would result in 2 people having near identical (no more than 1 question different) results of 14ish/18ish. Fwiw i think this is a really interesting logical problem, b/c i think most teachers would almost never look at this situation this rationally (and try to assign odds to it). You should at least post the 4 questions they both got wrong (to see if it makes sense to get them wrong in the same way). Also what were the most common answers per question for the rest of the class?

[Subfallen]

Yeah, durrr is right...you're assuming independent wrong-answer probabilities which is silly when the whole crux of the matter is whether the probabilities are independent.

If there was anything special about the set of missed questions, then instantly the chance of cheating drops considerably.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the probability that cheating did not occur?


[/ QUOTE ]

Orders of magnitued better than 0.2 to the power of 20.

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
If there was anything special about the set of missed questions, then instantly the chance of cheating drops considerably.

[/ QUOTE ]
You guys talking about consistancy of missed questions need to go back and read Boro's 2nd post in this thread.

[Subfallen]

I read that, but it just said that none of the problems were gimmes. Maybe the four key questions all had unusually tempting "almost-right" answer choices. Or something like that, who knows.

That said, this definitely looks like cheating on the surface.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the four key questions all had unusually tempting "almost-right" answer choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah thats what i'm thinking. The main reason i dont think this is cheating is b/c the girl did a lottt better than normal, and 1 better than the guy. Unless she is usually pretty smart but just doesnt study a lot, it really doesnt fit (that she'd be confident enough to go against one of his answers). I guess another option is that she isnt too bright, but studied a little bit and remembered that 1 exact question... but if she had studied a bit, and isnt too bright, i'd expect the answers to be more different overall.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not a rigorous way to calculate it, but what the hell. Assuming 5 incorrect responses, there is a 1/4 chance that they will get each wrong answer wrong in the same way. Hence there is approximately a (1/4)^5 chance that they will get all 5 wrong in the same way, or 1/1024.

That brings the total odds against to something in the neighborhood of 7.7 million to 1 against.

If I did that (approximately) correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

your stats are wayyy off. The girl got 4/18 wrong while the guy got 5/18, and these overlapped... assuming 75% the odds are wayyy > 7m-1 (~20k/{students in class x students in class-1}/2 to1 off the top of my head).

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't figure out what you are saying here. The 75% chance of getting a question right was just an approximation to produce a score of ~ 14-15/19.

[ QUOTE ]
However your forgetting that some questions are easier than others.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not. I just made an order of magnitude estimate. Some problem might be easier. Some might be harder. But non of those will raise the probability of getting the problem right any higher than 1 or any lower than 0.2. The calculation cannot be off by orders of magnitude.

[ QUOTE ]
I could probably write a test which if i gave it to a 20person class, would result in 2 people having near identical (no more than 1 question different) results of 14ish/18ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if you designed a really crappy test. I don't design really crappy tests.

[ QUOTE ]
Fwiw i think this is a really interesting logical problem, b/c i think most teachers would almost never look at this situation this rationally (and try to assign odds to it). You should at least post the 4 questions they both got wrong (to see if it makes sense to get them wrong in the same way). Also what were the most common answers per question for the rest of the class?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather not post any of the questions, at least not until the semester is over and whatever action has been taken.

[eviljeff]

out of curiousity, if you were 100% sure she cheated and could prove it, what action would you take?

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
out of curiousity, if you were 100% sure she cheated and could prove it, what action would you take?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are procedures in place that I have to follow.

[Kaj]

Boro, there are a number of reasons the scores may be correlated. How the questions were written, how the multiple answers were correlated, how the material of the missed questions was taught, etc.

That said, it sure looks like cheating, but no way to prove it statistically as you are trying to assess the dependence of the questions to see if the answers were arrived at without cheating. You can't do so by assuming the questions are independent (well you can, but your answer will be meaningless). Seems to me that closer proctoring of the next exam is in order.

[eviljeff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
out of curiousity, if you were 100% sure she cheated and could prove it, what action would you take?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are procedures in place that I have to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this highschool or college btw? in practice I think most profs exercise a fair amount of discretion in these cases and the penalties could vary widely (from say, taking a zero on the quiz to getting kicked out of school). I wouldn't fault you for following procedure, I'm just kind of surprised that you would just defer to the rules given your ACist beliefs.

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't fault you for following procedure, I'm just kind of surprised that you would just defer to the rules given your ACist beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because someone wishes to change the rules, doesn't mean they will ignore the rules currently in place. And frankly, I'm not sure the rules would be much different, in this case, if this were an AC world. Cheating is cheating, regardless of your world view.

[Jcrew]

What's up with a multiple choice test for a college physics class?

[durrrr]

the way you did the odds was to see the chances that some1 got 14, and another person got exactly 15. What you should've done was calc the odds that any 2 students in the makeup ended 1 question off in their answers (assuming they had ~75% right), and even this is vry flawed b/c some questions have a much higher percentage than others. Either your giving your tests wayyy too much credit (that all the questions are v similarly difficult), or you spend a tonnn of time designing them and are extremely smart. Not meant as an insult but i expect its the former.

[DrVanNostrin]

If you haven't reviewed the test yet you could give the class a pop quiz (require them to show work) featuring several test like questions and see how these two do.

Or just explain to them that you think they cheated and will take action if they do not meet with you. Meet with them seperately. Use this time to determine how much of the material each student knows. Evalueate the situation again.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
What's up with a multiple choice test for a college physics class?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have well over 200 students and no TAs. It would be literally impossible for me to grade a thousand pages or more by hand every time I gave a test.

It sucks, I agree.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
the way you did the odds was to see the chances that some1 got 14, and another person got exactly 15.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I didn't.

[ QUOTE ]
What you should've done was calc the odds that any 2 students in the makeup ended 1 question off in their answers (assuming they had ~75% right), and even this is vry flawed b/c some questions have a much higher percentage than others. Either your giving your tests wayyy too much credit (that all the questions are v similarly difficult), or you spend a tonnn of time designing them and are extremely smart. Not meant as an insult but i expect its the former.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just made a back-of-the-envelope calculation using reasonable numbers. Even if I am off by 6 orders of magnitude it would still be more likely than not that cheating occured.

[Fly]

boro,

Do you actually care if cheating took place? Does it bother as you a professor? If I were a professor I would expect this type of small stuff and would probably just ignore it since I wouldn't care. Also, even if I was 100% certain someone cheated (being a prof) I wouldn't report them as the punishments are really freaking harsh.

What I mean is, why wreck some pretty girl's life for having the misfortune to take a phsyics class? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

(I have never cheated, mainly for ego reasons /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

[Lestat]

It's amazing to me how teachers need definitive proof before calling a student out for cheating...

I was a real goof-off in high school (I blew off so many classes that one day I showed up for a class and the teacher made me go to the dean's office to prove I was supposed to be there!). Anyway... We had a science test (This was one of the classes I was blowing off and doing poorly in). A girl in the previous class left her "graded" test inside a slot on my desk! She was a whiz and got 100%. Of course, I copied her test purposely missing one question just to make it look good.

When we got our grades, the teacher looked me straight in the eye and said, "Lestat, I don't know how you did it, but if I ever find out, I'm going to make you re-take the test ALONE! Until then, congratulations. You just went from failing to getting an A in my class".

I mean, the guy KNEW I cheated! Why not just bust me and make me take the test again? Borodog strongly suspects the girl cheated here. I'm sure he knows if she's capable of that score (shouldn't he be?). There's an easy way to find out. Why not make her re-take the test? Why are teachers so reluctant to call a student on cheating?

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
boro,

Do you actually care if cheating took place? Does it bother as you a professor? If I were a professor I would expect this type of small stuff and would probably just ignore it since I wouldn't care. Also, even if I was 100% certain someone cheated (being a prof) I wouldn't report them as the punishments are really freaking harsh.

What I mean is, why wreck some pretty girl's life for having the misfortune to take a phsyics class? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

(I have never cheated, mainly for ego reasons /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually a very good post. Yes, I do care if cheating took place, because of the way the class is graded, which is relatively. If she helps herself via cheating, she may harm someone else (she may not, since it is a letter grade +/- scale, the grade resolution is fairly course).

But I do think the penalties are disproportionately harsh, and she does have the misfortune of being required to take a class that almost certainly has little to do with her minor. It's not like she's going to be building bridges or doing something that will kill someone because she cheated in my physics class. If I have the leeway, I will avoid that route, and simply offer her the option of retaking a modified version of the test. If she does relatively well, I'll let her keep her old score. But if she does significantly worse, I will give her the worse score.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing to me how teachers need definitive proof before calling a student out for cheating...

I was a real goof-off in high school (I blew off so many classes that one day I showed up for a class and the teacher made me go to the dean's office to prove I was supposed to be there!). Anyway... We had a science test (This was one of the classes I was blowing off and doing poorly in). A girl in the previous class left her "graded" test inside a slot on my desk! She was a whiz and got 100%. Of course, I copied her test purposely missing one question just to make it look good.

When we got our grades, the teacher looked me straight in the eye and said, "Lestat, I don't know how you did it, but if I ever find out, I'm going to make you re-take the test ALONE! Until then, congratulations. You just went from failing to getting an A in my class".

I mean, the guy KNEW I cheated! Why not just bust me and make me take the test again? Borodog strongly suspects the girl cheated here. I'm sure he knows if she's capable of that score (shouldn't he be?). There's an easy way to find out. Why not make her re-take the test? Why are teachers so reluctant to call a student on cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]
I used to copy French translations from the same guy word for word every week. Teacher didn't realised until noticing my obvious cheat after eight weeks or so. 'Do you think I'm stupid enough not to notice this?' she asked. Happy days.

but I wouldn't cheat in anything that counted for grades. That has to be taken seriously doesn't it?

chez

[goodsamaritan]

[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing to me how teachers need definitive proof before calling a student out for cheating...

I was a real goof-off in high school (I blew off so many classes that one day I showed up for a class and the teacher made me go to the dean's office to prove I was supposed to be there!). Anyway... We had a science test (This was one of the classes I was blowing off and doing poorly in). A girl in the previous class left her "graded" test inside a slot on my desk! She was a whiz and got 100%. Of course, I copied her test purposely missing one question just to make it look good.

When we got our grades, the teacher looked me straight in the eye and said, "Lestat, I don't know how you did it, but if I ever find out, I'm going to make you re-take the test ALONE! Until then, congratulations. You just went from failing to getting an A in my class".

I mean, the guy KNEW I cheated! Why not just bust me and make me take the test again? Borodog strongly suspects the girl cheated here. I'm sure he knows if she's capable of that score (shouldn't he be?). There's an easy way to find out. Why not make her re-take the test? Why are teachers so reluctant to call a student on cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the injustice of a false positive is >>>> the injustice of a false negative.

[JSchnett]

cheating is so common I almost forget that it's actually looked down upon.

[Borodog]

Update:

As we speak I am giving the final exam. Just before we commenced I gave this speech:

"I have an unfortunate situation in this class. I have incontrovertable proof that a person or persons in this class cheated on test 4. If the person or persons in question would like to approach me before I approach them, it will go much better for them. If you would like to see me about this, please come speak to me after the exam today."

13 minutes later the girl in question brought a note to the front of the room asking to see me after the exam.

[Borodog]

Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[Dan.]

Good play, Borodog.

I'm assuming that if it goes to Academic Affairs she'll face possible expulsion, in theory? If I were her, I'd just take the 0, not wanting anything cheating-related on my file.

[Borodog]

If it goes to Academic Affairs, she will automagically fail the class (I think; it's a bit unclear). It will also go on her permanent record, but not be publicly available. It would sit there, like a time bomb, waiting for a second offense to occur. The second offense triggers expulsion. "Two strikes and you're out", basically.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you brought this situation up, can you let us know what she said in the meeting, and whether she seemed remorseful? Just curious.

So you said she is "above average" in atractiveness... hmm probably a good thing I decided not to become a college professor. I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is a tragic and pathetic commentary on modern male thinking. I'm just glad I wasn't the only one who thought it....

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you brought this situation up, can you let us know what she said in the meeting, and whether she seemed remorseful? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll post a final update with the resolution. I don't know how she can refuse the zero deal.

[ QUOTE ]
So you said she is "above average" in atractiveness... hmm probably a good thing I decided not to become a college professor. I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love my job too much, and I love my wife even more. Not gonna happen.

But damn the girl sitting in front of me right now (sits in front every class) is SMOKING HOT.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
If it goes to Academic Affairs, she will automagically fail the class (I think; it's a bit unclear). It will also go on her permanent record, but not be publicly available. It would sit there, like a time bomb, waiting for a second offense to occur. The second offense triggers expulsion. "Two strikes and you're out", basically.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't know if this would be her second offense or not?

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it goes to Academic Affairs, she will automagically fail the class (I think; it's a bit unclear). It will also go on her permanent record, but not be publicly available. It would sit there, like a time bomb, waiting for a second offense to occur. The second offense triggers expulsion. "Two strikes and you're out", basically.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't know if this would be her second offense or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I do not.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it goes to Academic Affairs, she will automagically fail the class (I think; it's a bit unclear). It will also go on her permanent record, but not be publicly available. It would sit there, like a time bomb, waiting for a second offense to occur. The second offense triggers expulsion. "Two strikes and you're out", basically.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't know if this would be her second offense or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I do not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then i am unsure as to weather you should give her the option then of just failing the test, seems as if she has cheated before and been caught then at some point she deserves to be kicked out of the school.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it goes to Academic Affairs, she will automagically fail the class (I think; it's a bit unclear). It will also go on her permanent record, but not be publicly available. It would sit there, like a time bomb, waiting for a second offense to occur. The second offense triggers expulsion. "Two strikes and you're out", basically.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't know if this would be her second offense or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I do not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then i am unsure as to weather you should give her the option then of just failing the test, seems as if she has cheated before and been caught then at some point she deserves to be kicked out of the school.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Attractiveness on a scale of ten)/(number of times caught cheating)= 3 or less, and she is expelled.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]

So you said she is "above average" in atractiveness... hmm probably a good thing I decided not to become a college professor. I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people always say stuff like this?

No, you would NOT be "too tempted" to offer her a third alternative. You might fantasize about it, but I would take almost any odds you wouldn't seriously consider it.

[goodsamaritan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So you said she is "above average" in atractiveness... hmm probably a good thing I decided not to become a college professor. I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people always say stuff like this?

No, you would NOT be "too tempted" to offer her a third alternative. You might fantasize about it, but I would take almost any odds you wouldn't seriously consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of fear of being caught, or the morality of it?

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might fantasize about it, but I would take almost any odds you wouldn't seriously consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you don't believe there are many professors out there that partake of the third alternative? I think it's a higher percentage than we would like to believe. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might fantasize about it, but I would take almost any odds you wouldn't seriously consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you don't believe there are many professors out there that partake of the third alternative? I think it's a higher percentage than we would like to believe. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know a few women who have admitted to doing this to secure grades. They may have been lying, the circumstances of their confessions encouraged exaggeration. I do think, however, that this is not really just some Dear Penthouse fantasy, and that this really does happen some small % of the time.

[goodsamaritan]

Borodog, are you ever worried that one of your students will find you out as a Borodog from 2+2 from the info you have provided about yourself and the pictures of yourself and your wife that you have posted? I mean, this is a pretty highly trafficked site.

[goodsamaritan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might fantasize about it, but I would take almost any odds you wouldn't seriously consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you don't believe there are many professors out there that partake of the third alternative? I think it's a higher percentage than we would like to believe. I hope I'm wrong, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know a few women who have admitted to doing this to secure grades. They may have been lying, the circumstances of their confessions encouraged exaggeration. I do think, however, that this is not really just some Dear Penthouse fantasy, and that this really does happen some small % of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard of some chicks doing it without grades even being a factor.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So you said she is "above average" in atractiveness... hmm probably a good thing I decided not to become a college professor. I'd be too tempted to offer her a third alternative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people always say stuff like this?

No, you would NOT be "too tempted" to offer her a third alternative. You might fantasize about it, but I would take almost any odds you wouldn't seriously consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct I would not explicitly offer any such alternative.

However, there are "grey" areas here in which I could in fact be tempted. What if she put out a vibe and flirted with me during the meeting? I actually had something like that happen when I taught an undergrad class while I was a PhD student. I didn't respond because (among other reasons) I had a girlfriend at the time, but now I'm older and single. Could definitely be a problem.

[Borodog]

It could happen. I don't go out of my way to make it happen, but then again I really don't go out of my way to avoid it.

However, a large decrease in my posting volume did occur when I acquired my current position. Take that for what you will.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the four key questions all had unusually tempting "almost-right" answer choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah thats what i'm thinking. The main reason i dont think this is cheating is b/c the girl did a lottt better than normal, and 1 better than the guy. Unless she is usually pretty smart but just doesnt study a lot, it really doesnt fit (that she'd be confident enough to go against one of his answers).

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to be really smart to happen to remember something with confidence. It's entirely possible that she's fairly smart and lazy though, just like you said.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't fault you for following procedure, I'm just kind of surprised that you would just defer to the rules given your ACist beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? He chose his job voluntarily knowing what rules he had to follow. ACists very much support voluntary contracts!

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the four key questions all had unusually tempting "almost-right" answer choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah thats what i'm thinking. The main reason i dont think this is cheating is b/c the girl did a lottt better than normal, and 1 better than the guy. Unless she is usually pretty smart but just doesnt study a lot, it really doesnt fit (that she'd be confident enough to go against one of his answers).

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to be really smart to happen to remember something with confidence. It's entirely possible that she's fairly smart and lazy though, just like you said.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah several of us used to copy stuff and correct the mistakes. So much more efficient than doing it yourself.

chez

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she confessed, it's not so bad. I'd say giving her a zero would be kinda [censored] after the confession actually, since you said it would be better for her if she confessed. Maybe have her retake it but give her a half score?

[gull]

Giving her a zero is too lenient, in my opinion.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Giving her a zero is too lenient, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

A zero seems to ensure that she'll fail the class, unless she had a pretty solid average before this (where she decided to cheat to get a marginal score).

Please explain what you think should happen. You apparently want her expelled?

[johnnyrocket]

this is a great question, its cool to see various responses. I am not sure how to approach it but to get an estimate I would discard the 7 questions that the most responses with the same answer (random number i use here), these have the least variance. I would then check out the other 12 questions, compare it with the percent of students that answered the same answer for that question, take that percent for each of these 12 questions and multiply the percents, this is how likely I think it is that they didnt cheat

my logic is not sound here but it is how i'd approach the question at hand

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she confessed, it's not so bad. I'd say giving her a zero would be kinda [censored] after the confession actually, since you said it would be better for her if she confessed. Maybe have her retake it but give her a half score?

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, taking the zero IS far better than the alternative. If she had not come forward and I had to approach her, it almost certainly would have gone to academic affairs, in which case she would have failed the class.

Giving her a zero on the test is actually extremely lenient, since her lowest test score is dropped, just like everyone else's. This essentially takes her "pre-final" grade from a B- to a C. Big whoop.

[arahant]

So, what's the deal? You meet with her? You're killing me here. Inquiring minds...

[ojc02]

[ QUOTE ]
But damn the girl sitting in front of me right now (sits in front every class) is SMOKING HOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Boro, do any of your students know of your online persona?

[eviljeff]

I think you handled it well. I was thinking some combination of the following:

1) lower quiz score (possibly to zero, possibly based on retake)
2) lower final grade
3) cap what her potential final grade could be

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she confessed, it's not so bad. I'd say giving her a zero would be kinda [censored] after the confession actually, since you said it would be better for her if she confessed. Maybe have her retake it but give her a half score?

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, taking the zero IS far better than the alternative. If she had not come forward and I had to approach her, it almost certainly would have gone to academic affairs, in which case she would have failed the class.

Giving her a zero on the test is actually extremely lenient, since her lowest test score is dropped, just like everyone else's. This essentially takes her "pre-final" grade from a B- to a C. Big whoop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured a zero would turn it into a failing grade pre-final for sure. Perhaps there were more tests than I thought, or perhaps the average score is near enough to zero for it to not be too bad.

[Chips_]

I once had a situation where two students had identical responses on a multiple choice test except one of them got 95% and the other got 0%. I had given out two different versions of the test with subtle changes in the numbers. So for one problem I'd change the number 3 to 8 and I would still have the answers in the same order, with the correct answer to the other test in the same place. When the incident occured I reviewed the result with the class after the test, not mentioning any names. I pointed out that one student had gotten extremely unlucky and would have gotten 95% had they possesed the style of test from the student sitting next to them, but unfortunatly instead they got a 0. I marvelled at how unlucky this person happened to be.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she confessed, it's not so bad. I'd say giving her a zero would be kinda [censored] after the confession actually, since you said it would be better for her if she confessed. Maybe have her retake it but give her a half score?

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, taking the zero IS far better than the alternative. If she had not come forward and I had to approach her, it almost certainly would have gone to academic affairs, in which case she would have failed the class.

Giving her a zero on the test is actually extremely lenient, since her lowest test score is dropped, just like everyone else's. This essentially takes her "pre-final" grade from a B- to a C. Big whoop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, the fact that the lowest test is dropped makes it not so bad.

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she confessed, it's not so bad. I'd say giving her a zero would be kinda [censored] after the confession actually, since you said it would be better for her if she confessed. Maybe have her retake it but give her a half score?

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, taking the zero IS far better than the alternative. If she had not come forward and I had to approach her, it almost certainly would have gone to academic affairs, in which case she would have failed the class.

Giving her a zero on the test is actually extremely lenient, since her lowest test score is dropped, just like everyone else's. This essentially takes her "pre-final" grade from a B- to a C. Big whoop.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude that a vital piece of information about dropping the lowest score. no question she HAS to take the deal.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
I once had a situation where two students had identical responses on a multiple choice test except one of them got 95% and the other got 0%. I had given out two different versions of the test with subtle changes in the numbers. So for one problem I'd change the number 3 to 8 and I would still have the answers in the same order, with the correct answer to the other test in the same place. When the incident occured I reviewed the result with the class after the test, not mentioning any names. I pointed out that one student had gotten extremely unlucky and would have gotten 95% had they possesed the style of test from the student sitting next to them, but unfortunatly instead they got a 0. I marvelled at how unlucky this person happened to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be awesome if the cheater were the 95% guy, and the 0% was legit.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
So, what's the deal? You meet with her? You're killing me here. Inquiring minds...

[/ QUOTE ]

She came to my office after the exam, I went and got another prof to witness, and I asked her "So, what happened?" I.e., I did not actually make any accusation. She confessed the whole thing. I offered her the two options. escalate or plea bargain. She took the plea.

The End.

[IWntErinNess]

i don't really agree with the facebook thing as being evidence of cheating.

i have a friend that i know for a fact cheats off of someone who he isn't friends with on facebook. the other guy doesn't even know his answers are being copied; he just doesn't cover his paper very well.

fwiw, i do think these tests look suspect

[AbreuTime]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be awesome if the cheater were the 95% guy, and the 0% was legit.

[/ QUOTE ]
A cheater would never copy off of a guy who would get a 0% on a multiple choice test.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be awesome if the cheater were the 95% guy, and the 0% was legit.

[/ QUOTE ]
A cheater would never copy off of a guy who would get a 0% on a multiple choice test.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes they would. Picked the right talent but got shafted.

chez

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
But damn the girl sitting in front of me right now (sits in front every class) is SMOKING HOT.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thinly veiled brag, Boro. I knew you were up to something with this thread.

[Borodog]

An almost unrelated update.

Was talking to another prof in the department about the resolution of this case, and he told me about one he has. Much more severe. Apparently a physics major cheated on the final exam, take home portion, of advanced undergraduate E&M. The prof assigned 2 questions from Jackson on the take home section, and the kid virtually copied line by line from the solution manual. The prof then went back and checked his homeworks, and sure enough, the homeworks show the same thing.

I have not heard what the resolution of this is yet, but a physics major cheating multiple times on homeworks and then on the final exam will almost certainly end his academic career in the department.

[latefordinner]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck, that still seems too harsh for my taste (gender and attractiveness of the cheater has nothing to do with it). But I don't know how many points the test was worth. In most college classes I took a zero on any one test would make you fail the class. Maybe just an F on the test?

[latefordinner]

[ QUOTE ]
This essentially takes her "pre-final" grade from a B- to a C. Big whoop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never mind then

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, after speaking with a good friend of mine also in academia, I think letting her take the retest is too lenient, and unfair. It gives her "two bites at the apple" where the other students only had one, as my friend put it.

I will probably take his suggestion, and offer her the alternatives of either taking a zero for the test or escalating the situation to Academic Affairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck, that still seems too harsh for my taste (gender and attractiveness of the cheater has nothing to do with it). But I don't know how many points the test was worth. In most college classes I took a zero on any one test would make you fail the class. Maybe just an F on the test?

[/ QUOTE ]

She got off incredibly lightly. I think I mentioned elsewhere in the thread that her lowest test grade, the 0, was dropped, just like everyone else's lowest test grade. She escaped the class with a C.

[latefordinner]

Yes I agree, should have read all the way through the thread before commenting. Now I think it was almost too lenient /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I agree, should have read all the way through the thread before commenting. Now I think it was almost too lenient /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It probably was, but there was already a lowest-test-grade-will-be-dropped policy in place.

[doucy]

[ QUOTE ]
An almost unrelated update.

Was talking to another prof in the department about the resolution of this case, and he told me about one he has. Much more severe. Apparently a physics major cheated on the final exam, take home portion, of advanced undergraduate E&M. The prof assigned 2 questions from Jackson on the take home section, and the kid virtually copied line by line from the solution manual. The prof then went back and checked his homeworks, and sure enough, the homeworks show the same thing.

I have not heard what the resolution of this is yet, but a physics major cheating multiple times on homeworks and then on the final exam will almost certainly end his academic career in the department.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing this kid must have purchased the solutions manual on his own, separate from the textbook? Cause the prof would have to be dumber than the kid to be assigning questions that students already have answers to.

I guess the kid is at least a little clever in that he found a way to get all the correct answers without having to do any work, but at the same time he is very very dumb for making it so obvious that he's cheating.

[Borodog]

Jackson is not the text for the class. The text for the class is Griffiths. Jackson is THE graduate level E&M text, and the simpler problems can make for excellent exam questions for the undergrad level.

[doucy]

I see. Still seems pretty ridiculous that he would assign problems that students could potentially already have the answers to. But I guess if I were a professor and I got paid the same regardless of the amount of time I put into work, I'd probably just use someone else's problems also.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
I see. Still seems pretty ridiculous that he would assign problems that students could potentially already have the answers to. But I guess if I were a professor and I got paid the same regardless of the amount of time I put into work, I'd probably just use someone else's problems also.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason to expect an undergrad to have access to the Jackson solutions manual. He also instructed the students explicitly on what materials they were allowed to consult.

[mjkidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see. Still seems pretty ridiculous that he would assign problems that students could potentially already have the answers to. But I guess if I were a professor and I got paid the same regardless of the amount of time I put into work, I'd probably just use someone else's problems also.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason to expect an undergrad to have access to the Jackson solutions manual. He also instructed the students explicitly on what materials they were allowed to consult.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you have a take home test that is not open-everything? People are going to cheat, period. There is no reason not to.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see. Still seems pretty ridiculous that he would assign problems that students could potentially already have the answers to. But I guess if I were a professor and I got paid the same regardless of the amount of time I put into work, I'd probably just use someone else's problems also.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason to expect an undergrad to have access to the Jackson solutions manual. He also instructed the students explicitly on what materials they were allowed to consult.

[/ QUOTE ]


Out of curiosity, what is the call on whether the student was cheating on the homework assignments?

Specifically, since (at least at my school) homework assignments usually allow use of outside resources that arent other students (ie. internet, etc) it seems he would be allowed to use the other book.

Obviously, once you get to the exam where it was likely most outside resources were forbidden, he is toast.

[CallMeIshmael]

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I see. Still seems pretty ridiculous that he would assign problems that students could potentially already have the answers to. But I guess if I were a professor and I got paid the same regardless of the amount of time I put into work, I'd probably just use someone else's problems also.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason to expect an undergrad to have access to the Jackson solutions manual. He also instructed the students explicitly on what materials they were allowed to consult.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you have a take home test that is not open-everything? People are going to cheat, period. There is no reason not to.

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There is a big reason not to: if you get caught, you get punished.

Whether or not many people are going to cheat doesnt mean the student didnt cheat in this case.

[BillNye]

good resolution imo

[Red Stine]

When I read your original post it reminded me of this.

Jamie Escalante (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante)


"In 1982 he came into the national spotlight when 18 of his students passed the Advanced Placement calculus exam. The Educational Testing Service found these scores to be suspect and asked 14 of those who passed to take the exam again. Twelve of the 14 agreed to retake the test and did well enough to have their scores reinstated."

"1988 saw the release of a book Escalante:The Best Teacher in America by Jay Mathews (ISBN 0-8050-1195-1) and a movie Stand and Deliver detailing the events of 1982."

The inference in the movie and the book was that the students not only did very well but got the same questions right and the same answers wrong.

[renodoc]

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I love my job too much, and I love my hottie wife even more. Not gonna happen.

[/ QUOTE ]


Boro is well known for having the second hottest 2+2 wife. (although this will remain urban legend since I won't post pics)

[Borodog]

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I see. Still seems pretty ridiculous that he would assign problems that students could potentially already have the answers to. But I guess if I were a professor and I got paid the same regardless of the amount of time I put into work, I'd probably just use someone else's problems also.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason to expect an undergrad to have access to the Jackson solutions manual. He also instructed the students explicitly on what materials they were allowed to consult.

[/ QUOTE ]


Out of curiosity, what is the call on whether the student was cheating on the homework assignments?

Specifically, since (at least at my school) homework assignments usually allow use of outside resources that arent other students (ie. internet, etc) it seems he would be allowed to use the other book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Copying solutions out of the solutions manual is considered cheating at my institution; it's something we have to deal with all the time with the non-majors, but I've never heard about it with majors before.

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, once you get to the exam where it was likely most outside resources were forbidden, he is toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see. Still seems pretty ridiculous that he would assign problems that students could potentially already have the answers to. But I guess if I were a professor and I got paid the same regardless of the amount of time I put into work, I'd probably just use someone else's problems also.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason to expect an undergrad to have access to the Jackson solutions manual. He also instructed the students explicitly on what materials they were allowed to consult.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you have a take home test that is not open-everything? People are going to cheat, period. There is no reason not to.

[/ QUOTE ]


There is a big reason not to: if you get caught, you get punished.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[mjkidd]

But the only way you'll get caught is blatant plagarism, correct? If this physics student wasn't retarted, he would have read the solutions manual, understood the problem and how to get the answer, and then done the problem himself. This is still cheating, but it is completly undetectable.

[CallMeIshmael]

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But the only way you'll get caught is blatant plagarism, correct? If this physics student wasn't retarted, he would have read the solutions manual, understood the problem and how to get the answer, and then done the problem himself. This is still cheating, but it is completly undetectable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, assuming that there isnt an error in the solutions manual that he would copy, then yes, this seems like its a ticket to an easy A for a non-retard.