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Rodney_King
04-26-2007, 05:55 PM
Long time lurker, first time poster. As you'll likely notice, I'm more on the atheist side of things.

Today I was thinking about Time Travel. It's such a common topic in popular culture, yet respresented so ridiculously. I'm sure a lot of what I have to say has been said many times before, but I have no idea where. Plus, it will be interesting to say what some of the more Christian posters will say regarding the issue.

Time Travel. Is it possible? Well, we obviously travel through time every day. It goes on, as we experience. Since our perception does seem to often change, I think it would definitely be possible to "go faster" or "go slower". If our thoughts are sped up, would we not then experience time as seeming slower? Drug hazes are definitely an interesting example where time can seem to move slowly or quickly. You may say "But time is actually moving at the same speed". Maybe it seemed that way to you, but to the drug user, it passed differently. Since speed is relative, I think we can assume that really only your own perception of time matters.
Imagine a drug that made the user's thoughts speed up. Actually, everything the user did could speed up. Say, you can now walk 25% faster, think 25% faster, and so on. The world's measurement of time would remain the same, yet you would experience it differently than everyone else. I know this isn't really "time travel", but it is somewhat related to what I am eventually getting at.
Basically, if you used this drug(assuming no side effects), you would have more time in your life to do whatever it is you'd like to. Now, imagine every single person in the world using this drug. I think it's pretty clear that even though people would be getting way more done, once people forgot what it was like before the drug, no one would even notice. Other organisms would behave the same, but we would now be faster. It is really indistinguishable from the opposite case, where everything else in the world was suddenly given a "slowing down" drug. As we all know, time is relative.

Time machines. Generally, this is the way the concept of time travel works in books, movies, people's heads, etc. You step in, and then you are transported to the time. There was a recent discussion here that i was reminded of.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=2#Post10063624 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=10063624&an=0&page=2#Pos t10063624)
Some people said things such as "time doesn't exist", others a more theoretical basis. On a strict philosophical basis, we can't really say whether time exists. I can say I exist, but I can't say that YOU exist. Likewise, I can't say whether time "exists". But if there wasn't any concept of time, how would anything ever happen in our lives? A concept of time seems to be a necessary condition for self-awareness. If there were no such thing, it would seem we would be unable to do anything. We would just sort of exist infinitely. There would be no cause and effect, nor anything of the sort. We would just...."exist". I have no idea what this existence would entail. Say we just existed, and could think of this concept....but we couldn't think of anything else. Many religious afterlife depictions seem to be similar. When you go to heaven, you will "be with God infinitely". This is seen as good. But it seems to me that if we were just existing infinitely, and not doing anything else...this would suck. I guess the idea is you would be happy infinitely..and so on. The problem is, we cannot describe such states, since happiness depends on sadness, good depends on evil, and without the contrast what would they be? Nothing and everything, much like the popular koan.

I'm afraid I'm getting off topic; let me steer discussion more towards the following. If we could travel anywhere we wanted in time, essentially we could just do whatever we liked with our existence, infinitely. Seems like a good plan. Also kind of falls in line with the "All is one" theory. This is nothing like Time Travel is portrayed by any popular culture reference. I think it's pretty clear that the popular version has many more issues than the grandfather paradox. I could just sit in the time machine forever, continually traveling back one minute in time.

instead of just typing thoughts for no real reason, now i will have some questions.

Question:
Christians, what are your thoughts on time and time travel? I don't feel time travel and Christianity mesh together well at all, although some probably feel otherwise. I don't think logic and Christianity mesh either, and we've seen how much people care about that.

Question #2:
If you could press a button and shift into infinite existence right now, would you do it?

#3:
If you could live in a world without evil, would you do it? This question may not contain the word "time", but it is definitely related to #2.

#4:
If you could choose any time to have been born, when would it be?

This post is out of hand long, so I will quit now and see what everyone has to say. Hopefully I made sense and didn't just waste everyone's time. And if I did? Big deal. You can't get it back anyway.

Rodney King

BigBuffet
05-14-2007, 07:07 AM
Why does one have to be Christian (or of any religion) to think about this subject?

Anyway, doesn't "time" seem to speed up when we are enjoying something and are surprised by how late it is?

Question #2:
If you could press a button and shift into infinite existence right now, would you do it?

No. Meaningful existence can only be achieved when the clock is running. In poker terms it would be like one long never-ending cash game.

Question #3:
If you could live in a world without evil, would you do it? This question may not contain the word "time", but it is definitely related to #2.

No. Duality is important. What is dry without wet? Good without Evil?

Phil153
05-14-2007, 07:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Question #2:
If you could press a button and shift into infinite existence right now, would you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure what you mean.

[ QUOTE ]
#3:
If you could live in a world without evil, would you do it? This question may not contain the word "time", but it is definitely related to #2.

[/ QUOTE ]
Free will necessarily includes the capacity for evil. Any blind, indifferent, purposeless system is ultimately fair, and I wouldn't change that fairness to remove "evil".

[ QUOTE ]
#4:
If you could choose any time to have been born, when would it be?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would love to spend my final years exploring the universe, that would probably be more likely to happen in a few hundred years. But right now is an exciting and safe time to be alive, so no real complaints.

m_the0ry
05-14-2007, 12:48 PM
Time travel forwards is definitely possible due to relativistic effects. Here we have to define time travel very carefully; traversing spacetime at a different rate than the typical earthbound object.

Time travel backwards is an impossibility and always leads to some logical paradox. I like to analogize consciousness as a wave/ripple passing through spacetime just like ripples on the surface of a pond. The ripple exists at different points on the pond at different times, but only in a finite state. That is to say, we can point out or refer back to when the ripple was at one certain point on the surface of the pond, but there will always be a single state of the wave associated with that point. Multiple states cannot be associated with the point on the pond because the ripple only traverses each point once.

Applied to real spacetime, we can refer to or even capture ourselves in a particluar state in time, but returning to that point in time in a *different* state is impossible.

PLOlover
05-14-2007, 12:56 PM
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Time travel backwards is an impossibility and always leads to some logical paradox.

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I think in theory if you build a time machine you can travel back to the first instant the time machine works, but not any further back in time. wormholes and all that.

m_the0ry
05-14-2007, 01:06 PM
Wormholes and brane theory definitely leave room for going backwards in time, yes. But the problem lies in information theory which has always concluded that travel between universes can result in no exchange of information. If we send a person through a wormhole or gate between membranes the extreme environment will always break the person or object down into elementary particles and destroy whatever is trying to pass down until its original state is impossible to determine.

I might be mistaken but there have already been several experiments that confirm that certain elementary particles can be launched backwards in time. This is a destructive process that can never contain any information.

PairTheBoard
05-14-2007, 02:51 PM
Maybe we should have a Science Fiction Forum. In my opinion, Science Fiction is great stuff. Everybody should read some of it.

PairTheBoard

PLOlover
05-14-2007, 03:13 PM
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I might be mistaken but there have already been several experiments that confirm that certain elementary particles can be launched backwards in time. This is a destructive process that can never contain any information.

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well wormhoes are theoretical only so i don't know how you can test it. works well in star trek thoughl.

r3vbr
05-15-2007, 01:51 AM
It's amazing how the majority of the posters in this topic actually believe it's possible to travel backwards in time... Can someone who is an authority in physics please straighten this out?

govman6767
05-15-2007, 02:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing how the majority of the posters in this topic actually believe it's possible to travel backwards in time... Can someone who is an authority in physics please straighten this out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not an authority on physics but I'm pretty sure the SMARTEST scientist on the planet has an infantile knowledge of the workings of the universe.

AWoodside
05-15-2007, 02:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing how the majority of the posters in this topic actually believe it's possible to travel backwards in time... Can someone who is an authority in physics please straighten this out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't consider myself an authority in any sense, but I do have an undergrad physics degree from a top 3 school. To my knowledge there has never been any respected academic work that says time travel is possible in the way most people posting here are hoping, and there has certainly been a lot to the contrary. That being said, we're definitely wrong about a lot of things right now, or at least only approximately right... so who knows.

PLOlover
05-15-2007, 04:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing how the majority of the posters in this topic actually believe it's possible to travel backwards in time... Can someone who is an authority in physics please straighten this out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said it was theoretically possible because it is. Practical is a whole different matter.

I mean wormholes are theoretically possible, but none have been observed and I'm sure everyone agrees that it would be impossible for humans to create a wormhole;/

m_the0ry
05-15-2007, 12:27 PM
Well obviously the framework for backwards time travel will be theoretical. Hell, we haven't definitively observed a black hole yet and even once we do they are in practice almost completely indistinguishable from wormholes.

I think backwards time travel may exist by a very loose definition of the phrase and a very improbable use of 'may'. If it does exist I am fairly certain it will obey the black hole information paradox and, as a consequence, the idea of sending any information or people back in time is impossible, only elementary particles.

PLOlover
05-15-2007, 01:22 PM
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If it does exist I am fairly certain it will obey the black hole information paradox and, as a consequence, the idea of sending any information or people back in time is impossible, only elementary particles.

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thats ok by me but I'm trusting Data cause after his star fleet career he was head of physics at oxford or something.

IdealFugacity
05-15-2007, 01:29 PM
[edited by user]

m_the0ry
05-15-2007, 01:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it does exist I am fairly certain it will obey the black hole information paradox and, as a consequence, the idea of sending any information or people back in time is impossible, only elementary particles.

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thats ok by me but I'm trusting Data cause after his star fleet career he was head of physics at oxford or something.

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I'm no trekkie but isn't he a robot? Cause I find it hard to believe the oxford dean of admissions would let a robot in... well at least make him pay double tuition or something.

PLOlover
05-15-2007, 02:03 PM
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I'm no trekkie but isn't he a robot? Cause I find it hard to believe the oxford dean of admissions would let a robot in... well at least make him pay double tuition or something.

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star trek was mulitcultural before multicultural was cool.

besides, he's "fully functional"