Back On Topic With The Hero Professor

[David Sklansky]

My other thread was hijacked a little. I didn't want to get into the fate of unbelievers who may not have lived a good life but died heroically. That gives fundamentalists too much rope to play with. It allows KJustin to say:

"At the risk of offending some, let's invent a separate but nearly identical professor.

This professor committed a rape a week before the attack. He made the exact same heroic effort with regard only for the well-being of his students, except for whatever reason this time he survives. He is then put in jail shortly thereafter. I don't think very many people would be outraged at his jailing despite his heroism or Holocaust-survivor status.

In fact, I think the above professor is a useful illustration of what the "conservative" Christians are trying to explain in these discussions which is that when a rule is broken there's a consequence, a penalty to be paid and how "good" of a person you are doesn't change that fact."

A pretty bad analogy even if the professor was an athiest. And a terrible one if he is a pious Jew. Because if he was, he thought he was following "the rules" that God wanted followed. (Even in the rape analogy, it is important to point out that if the perpetrator could be shown to actually believe that the goverment condoned or even applauded his rapes he would not be punished as a criminal).

Apparantly the vast majority of Catholics believe that honest skepticsm about the Jesus story, coupled with good living, and loving God, can still be a ticket to heaven. And it is my impression that even a certain proportion of fundamentalist Protestants believe that Jews, specifically, are somehow in a special category, perhaps for the reasons stated.

But there are still lots of fundamentalists who don't. And I want to pin them down as to why. Forget atheists or other religions. I want to know why you are so sure that the Jews who came before you, worshipping the same God, will not be forgiven for harboring the honest belief that they are doing your God's will by assuming that Jesus was simply a Moses like man who was erroneously assigned a higher stature than he actually deserved, by people who came after him. Just because that is an error in your view, why is it such an egregious error if it was made honestly to please God?

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]

But there are still lots of fundamentalists who don't. And I want to pin them down as to why. Forget atheists or other religions. I want to know why you are so sure that the Jews who came before you, worshipping the same God, will not be forgiven for harboring the honest belief that they are doing your God's will by assuming that Jesus was simply a Moses like man who was erroneously assigned a higher stature than he actually deserved, by people who came after him. Just because that is an error in your view, why is it such an egregious error if it was made honestly to please God?

[/ QUOTE ]

well it looks like to me that if a jew didnt make the first resurrection for the super good guys then he would fall under the 2nd resurrection below. so if you could find in the old testament that jews go into the book of life, then they will be guaranteed to be judged on their actions in life.
---------------------------
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020:12-15;&version=9;
Revelation 20:12-15 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[PLOlover]

Alternatively, you could look at the first resurrection and how it is for the most blessed or whatever the terminology is, and then go back and see that god called an old testament patriarch like abraham most blessed, and then logically infer from that that abraham must be coming up in the first resurrection, which disproves the notion the resurrections are closed to jews.

[PLOlover]

revelation 2:9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

maybe that's the problem. i never knew "false jew" had a biblical basis.

[carlo]

[ QUOTE ]
1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
[17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Revelation to John(Chapter 7)

The Lamb feeds them all. We live in a time in which materialistic scientific thought has penetrated even the great religions. Suffices to say that we all have to find our way.

By the way, the 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel, if taken at face value, appears nonsensical. This cannot be approached via the thought process of which we are at home with. Thats another story.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
The Revelation to John(Chapter 7)

The Lamb feeds them all. We live in a time in which materialistic scientific thought has penetrated even the great religions. Suffices to say that we all have to find our way.

By the way, the 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel, if taken at face value, appears nonsensical. This cannot be approached via the thought process of which we are at home with. Thats another story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know diondublin2?

[Drew_aces15]

I'll give it a shot.

Forget atheists or other religions. I want to know why you are so sure that the Jews who came before you, worshipping the same God, will not be forgiven for harboring the honest belief that they are doing your God's will by assuming that Jesus was simply a Moses like man who was erroneously assigned a higher stature than he actually deserved

The simple answer is that the whole of Scripture points to Christ, and Scripture is what a christian trusts as true. So taking scripture a case can be made for salvation through Christ alone. As it regards this specific professor, I don't think anyone can rightfully determine the condition of his heart, and therefore shouldn't say whether he has received salvation or not.

But in a more general sense, a Jew or non-Jew, has the choice of accepting God's plan for salvation. The Jewish tradition points to Christ all along and many Jews deny it (and many do not)- sometimes ignorant of their own teaching, sometime willingly ignorant. For example, Old Testament, Jewish Scripture, says several things about a coming Messiah:
Moses Deuteronomy 18:15 - The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
Prophet Isaiah Isaiah 11:1-2 – 1There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
Prophet Jeremiah Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,… says the LORD. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Christ is the fulfillment of God's promise to the Jewish people - Abraham's descendants: Genesis 26:4 - And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and <u>in your seed </u> all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

And He is the seed by which all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. Galatians 3:28-29 - 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If anyone, especially after being shown these scriptures, whether Jew or non-Jew, decide that they don't believe, or say it's improbable for those things to be true and so decide not to believe, then one can conclude that person has not accepted the salvation that comes through Christ. Of course someone can mean well and not accept, but good intentions aren't sufficient biblically. All a christian can really do is present the information and allow the hearer to act on it.

[carlo]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you know diondublin2?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think you'll have to clarify now,the question must lead to something. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[carlo]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Do you know diondublin2?



No, I think you'll have to clarify now,the question must lead to something.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I looked him up. Obviously too avant-garde for anyone with strictured thoughts. I wish him well. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Do you know diondublin2?



No, I think you'll have to clarify now,the question must lead to something.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I looked him up. Obviously too avant-garde for anyone with strictured thoughts. I wish him well. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bunny]

I cant see how it can be reconciled with a just, loving god unless you abandon the idea that intention means anything. It seems to me they must be believing that an action is good or bad, irrespective of intent. As such - this person rejected jesus and hence rejected god. Thus they committed the ultimate sin and must be punished, irrespective of any good they did, or whether they were trying to do the right thing.

Probably another required premise is that everyone gets a chance at some point in their life to accept jesus as their saviour.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to know why you are so sure that the Jews who came before you, worshipping the same God, will not be forgiven for harboring the honest belief that they are doing your God's will by assuming that Jesus was simply a Moses like man who was erroneously assigned a higher stature than he actually deserved, by people who came after him. Just because that is an error in your view, why is it such an egregious error if it was made honestly to please God?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think they would say that what condemns him to hell is the fact that he is a sinner via original sin. His only means of salvation is Christ. So if he rejects Christ for whatever reason he is already condemned to hell. I guess they might split some on exactly what constitutes "rejecting Christ" and "accepting Christ".

Their reasons? The Bible told them so. Case Closed.

I don't see the point in trying to discuss it with them David. From their point of view, your arguments all amount to those of a sinner rationalizing the rejection of Christ. In other words, if you disagree with them your arguments are based on your sinful nature. QED.

With everybody else you are just preaching to the Choir. With them it is an exercise in futility.

PairTheBoard

[Drew_aces15]

[ QUOTE ]

Their reasons? The Bible told them so. Case Closed.

[/ QUOTE ]

That pretty much sums it up. Mr. Sklansky's question was rather direct in that regard:" why do you believe that?"

But it seems that holding a biblical view as a moral standard is just as valid as holding "it just seems right to me" as a standard. So you have no more of a basis for beliefs than any other system.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Just because that is an error in your view, why is it such an egregious error if it was made honestly to please God?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious why you're so concerned about the eternal fate of others. If God is just He will deal with all justly.

But you know by now what the Gospel says. You've heard it here for at least two years. From what I can tell your response is "The Jesus story is ridiculous and I don't have the time to investigate why I think so or if I'm right."

When you face God and He asks you why you rejected (yes, rejected) His Son, the provision He made for your sins, and you tell Him you didn't have time to check it out, what do you reasonably think His response will be? How are you going to convince Him that you made an "honest" error?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Just because that is an error in your view, why is it such an egregious error if it was made honestly to please God?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious why you're so concerned about the eternal fate of others. If God is just He will deal with all justly.

But you know by now what the Gospel says. You've heard it here for at least two years. From what I can tell your response is "The Jesus story is ridiculous and I don't have the time to investigate why I think so or if I'm right."

When you face God and He asks you why you rejected (yes, rejected) His Son, the provision He made for your sins, and you tell Him you didn't have time to check it out, what do you reasonably think His response will be? How are you going to convince Him that you made an "honest" error?

[/ QUOTE ]
how are you going to convince him that you made an "honest" error in believing he was so monstrous as to condemn this man to eternal tourment? Abandoning your god-given morality and performing intellectual cartwheels to justify putting a book before the best evidence you have?

I know which I would rather defend in front of god.

chez

[jogger08152]

[ QUOTE ]
When you face God and He asks you why you rejected (yes, rejected) His Son, the provision He made for your sins, and you tell Him you didn't have time to check it out, what do you reasonably think His response will be? How are you going to convince Him that you made an "honest" error?

[/ QUOTE ]
Couldn't similar questions be asked by Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists? I think the time commitment required to properly investigate a major religion is non-trivial. (Though this might not serve as an adequate excuse "before God", because the evidence, and the importance of the question, are also non-trivial.)

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

how are you going to convince him that you made an "honest" error in believing he was so monstrous as to condemn this man to eternal tourment?


[/ QUOTE ]

Who are you talking to?

I kinda always thought you paid no attention to anything I've ever said.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Couldn't similar questions be asked by Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Each person has to make up his own mind. I will say that representatives of none of those religions are trying to make their case to me. I have discussed with Mormons and JW's when they've come to my door and have spent some time researching both.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

how are you going to convince him that you made an "honest" error in believing he was so monstrous as to condemn this man to eternal tourment?


[/ QUOTE ]

Who are you talking to?

I kinda always thought you paid no attention to anything I've ever said.

[/ QUOTE ]
You. I've paid some attention and seems pretty clear you find it monstrous the same way you find hitler monstrous. You just insist it must in fact be good.

but feel free to say that you think its nice.

In any case, those of us who do find it monstous have the best possible evidence that your religon is wacko or god isn't good.

So lets assume the good hero of the OP was normal and finds your idea of god monstrous. He necessarily believe you are completely (even ultimately) on the wrong lines.

chez

[Mr. Now]

Mr. David,

Black-white yes-no judgements certainly simplify thinking, often at the expense of useful results. And reason.

A couple of NT scriptures for reference here:

John 15:13
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Galatians 5:21-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Just because that is an error in your view, why is it such an egregious error if it was made honestly to please God?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious why you're so concerned about the eternal fate of others. If God is just He will deal with all justly.



[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you understand that this sentence is gibberish, right? If God is God he will deal with people in a God-like manner. Of course thats true. But what we are worried about is what that entails! We have no reason to suspect that murderers will go to hell or that saints will go to Heaven, but we only have the confidence that, whatever happens, that is what we can retrospectively call just. But thats no help at all. I want good people to go to Heaven, even if that ISN'T just, because it is just by my relativistic definition. You are admitting that you have absolutely no idea what the concept of justice means, which is fine for you, but does little for us.

[David Sklansky]

"When you face God and He asks you why you rejected (yes, rejected) His Son, the provision He made for your sins, and you tell Him you didn't have time to check it out, what do you reasonably think His response will be? How are you going to convince Him that you made an "honest" error?"

Wait. So are you implying that those who have checked it out and rejected him (say a pious Yeshiva student) through an honest error, do indeed have a chance at mercy? If not your question to me was disingenuous. If they might, it would seem to screw up some of your other religious beliefs.

(As for me personally, the main reason I am quite sure that Jesus is not the biblical god's son is because I am quite sure there is no biblical god. And I have studied that subject more than you have. Its called math and science. I bring up Jews only because the subject seems to throw a monkeywrench in some of your arguments. And monkeywrenches are my god.)

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

So are you implying that those who have checked it out and rejected him (say a pious Yeshiva student) through an honest error, do indeed have a chance at mercy? If not your question to me was disingenuous. If they might, it would seem to screw up some of your other religious beliefs.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've stated many times I can't judge someone's heart. I'm not disingenous - try troll, that works for some.

[ QUOTE ]

And I have studied that subject more than you have. Its called math and science.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is at the same level as Dawkins. But there's no need to go further. I don't think monkeywrenches are your god. I think it's your intellect.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I want good people to go to Heaven


[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus said, " Why do you call me good? There is no one good but God".

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
"When you face God and He asks you why you rejected (yes, rejected) His Son, the provision He made for your sins, and you tell Him you didn't have time to check it out, what do you reasonably think His response will be? How are you going to convince Him that you made an "honest" error?"

Wait. So are you implying that those who have checked it out and rejected him (say a pious Yeshiva student) through an honest error, do indeed have a chance at mercy? If not your question to me was disingenuous. If they might, it would seem to screw up some of your other religious beliefs.

(As for me personally, the main reason I am quite sure that Jesus is not the biblical god's son is because I am quite sure there is no biblical god. And I have studied that subject more than you have. Its called math and science. I bring up Jews only because the subject seems to throw a monkeywrench in some of your arguments. And monkeywrenches are my god.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You can never "check it out" enough. If you check it out further and still "reject Jesus" it is because of your sinful nature and/or because you are not one of the "Elect". If you find this monsterous it is because of your sinful nature. Too bad for you. You go to hell. God doesn't have to save anybody to be just. But because he is loving he saves the "Elect". Too bad you aren't one of them.

Why is this load of crap true? The Bible told me so.

PairTheBoard

[andyfox]

"I don't think monkeywrenches are your god. I think it's your intellect."

Same thing, no? David uses his intellect to throw monkeywrenches into less logical arguments.

By what definition of "just" would we call a god just who insists that we accept the words of a man who lived so long ago that what he did and/or didn't do or say are almost impossible to determiine with any degree of accuracy, and made a claim that seems ridiculous? Especially when we see all the damage that has been done in his name?

If He asks you why you spent time and money on a computer debating with Sklansky instead of helping people in Africa, what would you tell Him?

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

what he did and/or didn't do or say are almost impossible to determiine with any degree of accuracy


[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you think that?

[ QUOTE ]

Especially when we see all the damage that has been done in his name?


[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that those who do damage in God's name are committing a greater sin than those who do damage in some other name.

[ QUOTE ]

If He asks you why you spent time and money on a computer debating with Sklansky instead of helping people in Africa, what would you tell Him?


[/ QUOTE ]

I would admit I'm a sinner and remind Him that Christ died for me, hoping I'm under His grace.

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I want good people to go to Heaven


[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus said, " Why do you call me good? There is no one good but God".

[/ QUOTE ]
That is an interesting quote, NotReady. Did Jesus not realize he was God? Certainly he was sinless (good), right? He had to know this.

Nevermind. I have no doubt you will twist and turn the simple, clear meaning of the text to whatever it is you want it to say.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I want good people to go to Heaven


[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus said, " Why do you call me good? There is no one good but God".

[/ QUOTE ]

Fantastic.

[andyfox]

What records do we have of what Jesus actually did? What is the evidence for, for example, the raising of Lazarus, or his resurrection? What evidence is there of the immaculate conception, or that he was the son of God?

I agree with you that there the damage done in God's or Jesus's name, comparing apples to apples, is not greater than that done in another's name. But there has been an awful lot of it that God has to answer for. Starting with that of his own hand.

How and why did Jesus die for you? I'm not being snarky here, I do not understand this. Thanks.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I want good people to go to Heaven


[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus said, " Why do you call me good? There is no one good but God".

[/ QUOTE ]
once we've realised your religon is on the wrong lines it doesn't make any difference what particulars it claims as true.

You may as well quote from harry potter

chez

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

What records do we have of what Jesus actually did? What is the evidence for, for example, the raising of Lazarus, or his resurrection? What evidence is there of the immaculate conception, or that he was the son of God?


[/ QUOTE ]

The New Testament is not only God's Word but also a historical document. I know you don't accept it but if you really studied what scholars say about it, about Christ's existence, how we got the NT, etc., you might be suprised. The historical accuracy alone should carry much weight. Read Luke and Acts(written by Luke) and then see how much he said that has been verified that was once thought false. There are also some extra-Biblical evidences and compared to the evidence we have of any ancient person or event, the material is fairly large.

[ QUOTE ]

But there has been an awful lot of it that God has to answer for. Starting with that of his own hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

This, of course, is extremely loaded and question begging. Really requires a separate thread, not that we haven't done it many times on this forum.

[ QUOTE ]

How and why did Jesus die for you?


[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, c'mon. That's the Gospel. Ok, I'll take you seriously as there may be some reading this who don't know.

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

That means all humans are guilty and subject to God's wrath.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life".

That's how He died for me. and you, and everyone - the crucifixtion.

[andyfox]

I'll invent something, or claim to be something, and call it "good." Then, by definition, if you disagree with it, you're "bad."

Seems like a recipe for despotism and intolerance, not love.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If He asks you why you spent time and money on a computer debating with Sklansky instead of helping people in Africa, what would you tell Him?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would admit I'm a sinner and remind Him that Christ died for me, hoping I'm under His grace.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what will you say when God asks you why you so monsterously misreprestented Him with your misinterpretation of what He meant for the Bible to tell you? Turning the "Good News" of Christ into a nightmare of cruelty. Thus driving many people away from Christ rather than drawing them Near.

Will you say oops? I must have been reading the Bible with my sinful eyes and sinful heart? In which case, why not just admit that possiblity now?

PairTheBoard

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I'll invent something, or claim to be something, and call it "good." Then, by definition, if you disagree with it, you're "bad."

Seems like a recipe for despotism and intolerance, not love.


[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly.

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If He asks you why you spent time and money on a computer debating with Sklansky instead of helping people in Africa, what would you tell Him?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would admit I'm a sinner and remind Him that Christ died for me, hoping I'm under His grace.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what will you say when God asks you why you so monsterously misreprestented Him with your misinterpretation of what He meant for the Bible to tell you? Turning the "Good News" of Christ into a nightmare of cruelty. Thus driving many people away from Christ rather than drawing them Near.

Will you say oops? I must have been reading the Bible with my sinful eyes and sinful heart? In which case, why not just admit that possiblity now?

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your question actually does bother him a bit. I've asked similar ones. And believe it or not I'd take ten to one that those questions will actually have enough of an effect to make him budge.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

I think your question actually does bother him a bit.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't. It bothers me that I can't explain everything adequately, until I read the Bible which explains that I shouldn't be able to explain everything adequately.

[ QUOTE ]

And believe it or not I'd take ten to one that those questions will actually have enough of an effect to make him budge.


[/ QUOTE ]

Budge from what? I don't claim infallibility. I think you know that.

[andyfox]

"all humans are guilty and subject to God's wrath."

Guilty of what? Is it because Adam and Eve sinned? What did what they did have to do with you or me? Is it because we're not perfect? If he created us, could he not have foreseen our imperfections?

As for the historical accuracy of the NT, this applies to the claims of immaculate conception, his resurrection, and his claim to be the son of God?

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"When you face God and He asks you why you rejected (yes, rejected) His Son, the provision He made for your sins, and you tell Him you didn't have time to check it out, what do you reasonably think His response will be? How are you going to convince Him that you made an "honest" error?"

Wait. So are you implying that those who have checked it out and rejected him (say a pious Yeshiva student) through an honest error, do indeed have a chance at mercy? If not your question to me was disingenuous. If they might, it would seem to screw up some of your other religious beliefs.

(As for me personally, the main reason I am quite sure that Jesus is not the biblical god's son is because I am quite sure there is no biblical god. And I have studied that subject more than you have. Its called math and science. I bring up Jews only because the subject seems to throw a monkeywrench in some of your arguments. And monkeywrenches are my god.)

[/ QUOTE ]

You can never "check it out" enough. If you check it out further and still "reject Jesus" it is because of your sinful nature and/or because you are not one of the "Elect". If you find this monsterous it is because of your sinful nature. Too bad for you. You go to hell. God doesn't have to save anybody to be just. But because he is loving he saves the "Elect". Too bad you aren't one of them.

Why is this load of crap true? The Bible told me so.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

Forcefully put.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Guilty of what?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very long theological discussion. It's raged for thousands of years. Again, not only are there many threads on this forum about it I would be glad to participate in another. The bottom line is all are guilty - that's why Christ became man, lived a sinless life, suffered humiliation and great agony, and died. He didn't do it because we are good.

[ QUOTE ]

As for the historical accuracy of the NT, this applies to the claims of immaculate conception, his resurrection, and his claim to be the son of God?


[/ QUOTE ]

In the end you have to exercise faith. The faith required is not blind or irrational, but it is faith. Some things from Scripture can be verified as much as anything historical can be - some things require faith.

[Rodney_King]

So all are guilty?
Sounds like a really perfect God! Why wouldn't HE then be guilty for creating us?

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
Guilty of what? Is it because Adam and Eve sinned? What did what they did have to do with you or me? Is it because we're not perfect? If he created us, could he not have foreseen our imperfections?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion it is impossible to reasonably believe in a literal Adam-and-Eve-apple story. For numerous reasons, not the least of which is that it is incompatible with oral tradition (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9773033&amp;an=&amp;page=0&amp;vc=1) . (I would still be interested to see a Christian on here attempt to reconcile observed oral tradition and a literal Genesis interpretation.)

[David Sklansky]

"In the end you have to exercise faith. The faith required is not blind or irrational, but it is faith. Some things from Scripture can be verified as much as anything historical can be - some things require faith."

The faith is not blind but it is irrational. This is a key point that even most atheists don't seem to get. The historical aspects of the bible may well be almost astonishing in their accuracy. I don't know. Or care. Because even if they are, that only means that there is very strong evidence for the biblical God. (So faith isn't blind.) Except that very strong evidence, is not nearly strong enough. Anymore than it was for the Salem witches. Or someone who espouses Uri Geller is a true psychic. Because the evidence against an entity that can break any and all laws of physics on a whim, is monumentally stronger.

Show me someone who can predict rushes in craps and I will change my mind.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
"In the end you have to exercise faith. The faith required is not blind or irrational, but it is faith. Some things from Scripture can be verified as much as anything historical can be - some things require faith."

The faith is not blind but it is irrational. This is a key point that even most atheists don't seem to get. The historical aspects of the bible may well be almost astonishing in their accuracy. I don't know. Or care. Because even if they are, that only means that there is very strong evidence for the biblical God. (So faith isn't blind.) Except that very strong evidence, is not nearly strong enough. Anymore than it was for the Salem witches. Or someone who espouses Uri Geller is a true psychic. Because the evidence against an entity that can break any and all laws of physics on a whim, is monumentally stronger.

Show me someone who can predict rushes in craps and I will change my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, the vast majority of people have a hard time discerning between probabilities like this. To them, it is really unlikely that in light of all this Biblical evidence you've just granted them, that the Biblical God could not exist. It is also really unlikely that he could exist if that necessitates breaking all these laws. So, since really = really, its a coin toss, and I want to believe in God, so voila! It is incredibly difficult to get most people to understand that really&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;really, in this case, and to appreciate what that means.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
The historical aspects of the bible may well be almost astonishing in their accuracy. I don't know. Or care. Because even if they are, that only means that there is very strong evidence for the biblical God.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it's evidence for anything other than that the Bible provides some record of some historical events. I don't see it providing any evidence for the metaphysical interpretations (God) the Biblical authors gave for those events. No more than the Iliad with its historical evidence for Troy provides evidence for the Greek Gods.

What the Bible does provide on the topic of God, is a record of the subjective spiritual experiences through history of the people involved and their interpretations of those experiences.

PairTheBoard

[andyfox]

"What the Bible does provide on the topic of God, is a record of the subjective spiritual experiences through history of the people involved and their interpretations of those experiences."

Not just that, but also PR work for those who wanted people to think the way they [the PR crew] wanted them to think.

[David Sklansky]

You guys need to understand that its a lot easier to refute conclusions if you grant any opposing arguments that don't matter.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys need to understand that its a lot easier to refute conclusions if you grant any opposing arguments that don't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I granted them along with you, and tried to point out why this is a less-than-optimal strategy for the majority of believers.

[ill rich]

you won't like the answer because it is simply faith.

there's really no argument here.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys need to understand that its a lot easier to refute conclusions if you grant any opposing arguments that don't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you did was make an assertion of your own which allows you to continue the discussion in language that does not apply when the situation is looked at in the proper perspective.

PairTheBoard

[daman123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think your question actually does bother him a bit.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't. It bothers me that I can't explain everything adequately, until I read the Bible which explains that I shouldn't be able to explain everything adequately.

[/ QUOTE ]

naturally.

[ill rich]

[ QUOTE ]
If he created us, could he not have foreseen our imperfections?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes this is true and it was destined.

God created (I forget the real name of the devil) Lucifer as an angel and forsaw he would turn on him and become a devil.

God created Adam and Eve and told them not to eat from the tree knowing they would.

I don't think the human brain really has the understanding of why an omnipotent being would do that, and most likely we don't see the "logic" in that. at the end of it all, I guess we just have to deal with the fact our life has been planned out from the start by God, and we're just experiencing it. a fact not many like.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he created us, could he not have foreseen our imperfections?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes this is true and it was destined.

God created (I forget the real name of the devil) Lucifer as an angel and forsaw he would turn on him and become a devil.

God created Adam and Eve and told them not to eat from the tree knowing they would.

I don't think the human brain really has the understanding of why an omnipotent being would do that, and most likely we don't see the "logic" in that. at the end of it all, I guess we just have to deal with the fact our life has been planned out from the start by God, and we're just experiencing it. a fact not many like.

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't have to, not in the least. What you are saying, EXACTLY, is that everytime you add 2 and 2 you get 4, but since your textbook says, clearly on p. 287, that 2 and 2 are 5, it must be right, and that the logic of the textbook printer cannot be understood by a lowly student.

[ill rich]

[ QUOTE ]
What you are saying, EXACTLY, is that everytime you add 2 and 2 you get 4, but since your textbook says, clearly on p. 287, that 2 and 2 are 5, it must be right, and that the logic of the textbook printer cannot be understood by a lowly student.

[/ QUOTE ]

true. and the student would probably never understand, because he always gets 4.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you are saying, EXACTLY, is that everytime you add 2 and 2 you get 4, but since your textbook says, clearly on p. 287, that 2 and 2 are 5, it must be right, and that the logic of the textbook printer cannot be understood by a lowly student.

[/ QUOTE ]

true. and the student would probably never understand, because he always gets 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not just him. All students everywhere. Good thing typos are impossible, right?

[ill rich]

[ QUOTE ]
Not just him. All students everywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

correct.

[diondublin2]

Are you Carlo Corazzin?

I use to watch him at the Abbey Stadium - the true home of football. Read about the U's in the Cambridge Evening News - they have a very controversial reporter or too, or once did...in a strange way!

[diondublin2]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Revelation to John(Chapter 7)

The Lamb feeds them all. We live in a time in which materialistic scientific thought has penetrated even the great religions. Suffices to say that we all have to find our way.

By the way, the 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel, if taken at face value, appears nonsensical. This cannot be approached via the thought process of which we are at home with. Thats another story.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do you know diondublin2?


Yes indeed I know Dionysus well - I used to be quite close to Him in a way.

Do you know Samael? Or any anagrams; this being an anagram mental wind-up? I think I'll get a Thai bride.

Adrian Mark Armstrong