50NL: 4betting AK preflop in position

[Chomp]

Villain 15/10/3 reg. I'd say he posts/lurks here.

Villain said afterwards he wasn't sure 4betting with position was that great here, and intuitively I kinda agreed with him.

So I was a bit surprised what Stove told me...

................

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/convert.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($33.25)
SB ($66.10)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($54.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($48.60)</font>
MP ($46.15)
CO ($136.71)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $19</font>, BB calls $12.

...............

Villain: 47.472% { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hero: 52.528% { AhKh }

Or we could widen his 3betting range a bit...

Villain: 43.621% { TT+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hero: 56.379% { AhKh }

.............

So Pokerstove is telling us that 4betting against a reasonable TAG reg's 3betting range is a 100% must.

Does anyone disagree with this proposition?

What arguments could be made for using our position to extract/save EV as opposed to a 4b?

Thanks.

[Ikaika]

If you 4-bet, what worse hands are calling? At these stakes I'm pretty sure you'll either get TT-QQ, AQ to fold or you'll get blown off your hand by KK or AA shoving.

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]
If you 4-bet, what worse hands are calling? At these stakes I'm pretty sure you'll either get TT-QQ, AQ to fold or you'll get blown off your hand by KK or AA shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]whoa dude no way folding to a shove after 4 banging no matter what.

[monkeymaps]

IDK that much about poker stove but isnt that just showdown value and doesnt really take post flop play into account?

your OOP in this hand I personally like push or just call the 3 bet here pushing maybe gross if you only getting called by KK+.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
IDK that much about poker stove but isnt that just showdown value and doesnt really take post flop play into account?

your OOP in this hand I personally like push or just call the 3 bet here pushing maybe gross if you only getting called by KK+.

[/ QUOTE ]


My understanding on Pokerstove is that at the moment of our preflop decision we have an equity advantage over villain so that is the information we must use. Whether one player outplays or outflops the other doesn't, I think, alter the equity situation when we make the initial decision. But I'm open to correction on that.

Re: pushing over the 3b, I just think that is transparent and pretty extreme. We also fold the hands we are flipping with (22-TT, probably JJ, possibly QQ) and get called by the only 2 hands we fear: AA, KK.

Maybe the best line is 4b preflop where we have an equity edge over his range, but just forget about continuing if we miss flop and villain shows any interest.

[CazicT]

Poker stove assumes you will see all 5 cards I believe, it is more for all-in situations. If you 4 bet and he calls and then you don't hit the flop are you going to continue with the hand if he bets into you, or what if he check raises you... Man that would be tough to continue with.

Now, if you wanted to use to see if you should shove here, then that is OK. But then you would really have to remove AQ from his range, because he would not call with it presumably. Once you get a number from pokerstove as to what your chances are if called, you can try to estimate what your fold equity to see if it is an OK decision.

IMO, you should either have called or shoved all-in if you wanted to gamble. 4 betting seems to set you up to have to make tough decisions later in the hand.

[tarheeljks]

if you are up against another deepstack, you should.