Aces with position, 200 BB deep, and significant background

[Jihad]

This is, IMO, a super interesting hand from a little while back at 50's. The villain is a multi-tabling TAG, but I don't really consider him a very good TAG at all. He calls way too much looking for big flops, and I take a lot of pots away from him, especially with position, which I currently have on him (immediate left). About 50 hands ago this hand happened to get me my stack, against the same villain:

He's got my $75 covered in the SB, I'm BB with KK and its pot-raised UTG and subsequently called in all 5 positions, I repop to $10 even, he's the only one that calls. So he just called a pf pot after 4 others and then was the only one to call my repot, from the SB. I put him pretty squarely on some sort of pair. We flop KT6, he checks, I bet $18 into $25ish, he insta-min-check-raises, I put him all in and his TT doesn't improve. I remember thinking, [censored], I woulda folded AA there. WELL....:

So that's a very important hand, as now we're about $125 deep, and I have AA in the BB. MP raises pot, villain calls, I repot to 6, MP folds, and guy calls. Flop is:

2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

He checks, I bet $10.50, he insta-min-check-raises to $21. I let my timer get way down and call. Turn is a rainbow 4, so now we're looking at a 2464 board. He almost instantly shoves for something like $70 into $50.

Thoughts on any/all streets please.

-Jihad

[TheRenaissance]

Sick spot.




(sorry have nothing more substantial to add at this time)

[maccamack]

Based on your description of the previous hand, I think that you think that he has you beat - so unless he is a third level thinker (which you don't seem to think he is) you should fold.

[tarheeljks]

point of clarification: in your example that is TT as in he has a set right? it's unclear b/c you seemed to be lamenting that you would have folded AA there.

assuming it is, i have a lot of trouble putting this guy on a fh here. he may very well be being very tricky, but it's more likely that he's got something like 77-TT ish.

[corsakh]

Logically, because you raised pre, he thinks ur on a high pair. The fact that you called his min raise indicates he is right and that you are scared. Now he shoves because

a) he thinks you can not get away from AA;
b) he thinks you can and steals the pot;
c) he is tilting and doesnt think.

It depends on how much credit you think the villain gives to you and how much credit you give to him.

So to me, unless I can say he is on some serious tilt, its like calling a river shove bluff with ace high. It looks like a bluff, it smells like a bluff, I know it is a bluff - but its just not worth calling it.

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]
point of clarification: in your example that is TT as in he has a set right?

[/ QUOTE ]word

[TheRenaissance]

He thinks you have an overpair.
He has given lots of small pots to you waiting for the big one.
You stacked him with an overset the last time he hit a big one.
He took the same line now as when he last had a set.

I would go broke here against an unknown but given your description it is a fold.

[kolotoure]

I'm not sure but I think your preflop 3-bet is too small

[C4LL4W4Y]

Tough spot, the fact that you're so deep induces a fold but this guy is basically telling you that he's on a bluff.

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure but I think your preflop 3-bet is too small

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. I hit the pot button.

[HANABI]

I honestly don't know what I would do in your situation. Part of me says call and part of me says fold.

I think him check minraising both flops doesn't mean the same thing. In hand one you are 100bb deep and in a reraised pot. By making that play he commits you to the pot if you decide to call the flop. Obviously hes just trying to play for stacks with a set.

In hand 2, he's making the same play with much deeper stacks . He knows that you are aware that he did it last time with a set, only this time his minraise doesn't serve the same purpose as in hand 1. It doesn't commit you to the hand, it builds the pot but not large enough for an open push on the turn. So why is he pushing the turn then? The line he took on the flop is supposed to be really strong (he's repping a set) and then he open shoves the turn for more than whats in the pot. That just makes no sense to me, especially from a multitabling TAG. I def don't think he's leveling you and is just angry at losing pots to you all the time. Coupled with the fact that you took forever to call on the flop I think makes this a call.


Also I think the raise preflop was too small. Aba20 can't stress enough about this in his cardrunners NLH videos. You did raise pot but with 200+bb stacks you have to push your preflop equity stronger and cut down on their implied odds, just like you would with a made hand on a the flop against a draw.

[catfish_01]

Potting it up in the BB doesn't include the blind you've supplied, so it does mean the raise is a little small.

[HBomb]

I think he either has you beat with 22 or 66 here or... he smooth call the reraise preflop with KK perhaps, but alot less likely since he didn't reraise the original raiser preflop... so I lean towards 22 or 66 in this pot... will you give us the results then?

[Vyse]

Disgusting spot, I'm calling.

[spacetime]

Very interesting hand.

I think it depends on his level of thinking..whether or not he remembers the last hand in which he took the same line with a monster. To me, he overbet shove looking more like an overpair then anything, wanting to protect against overcards.

Again, it really depends on how good villain is. This could be a great line if he has a set and thinks you will put him on an overpair.

I call. Results?!

[Leviathan101]

You said he's not very good, so I'll assume he's not leveling you. I fold.

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]
You said he's not very good, so I'll assume he's not leveling you. I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]<--results

[NL Newbie]

Not interesting, your deep, you have one pair, you reraised and we've no idea of your image or much of he's.

If you was one stack deep, i'd call since lots of overpairs we could be vs (JJ for example). He'd also be less worried since he also isnt going to lose more than 1 stack.

Since your so deep, just let it go - Very much looks like a PP, if hes that crap to shove a lower pair on this board then you'll get his cash later.

[ACChan]

FOLD! you can have better spots to put ur money in!
[ QUOTE ]
Since your so deep, just let it go - Very much looks like a PP, if hes that crap to shove a lower pair on this board then you'll get his cash later.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jihad]

This is why this forum sucks. It is, in fact, and interesting hand on at least some level. Don't be a dick.

[MayK]

I think folding is the best solution here but just because your still around 200bb deep.
Even after you rr he still have some good implied odd to call with some lower pp and he might have hit a set on the flop.

[fees]

I'm going all the way here, also if i'm reading this correcntly you raised WAY too small prf

[spacetime]

I agree with you, this is a pretty interesting hand. I am still up in the air about it...I wish you would have called so I could see it!!!!

vnh though.

[michaelantoi]

Interesting hand indeed.

I dont give Villain enough credit here to be shoving the turn (in order to represent weakness). If he is then he is better than we suspect.

I obv. dont know villain but since he's a multitabling TAG, I think he's just shoving with 99-QQ sorta range.

He's afraid of overcards coming and you repopped him on the flop so he's putting you on AK/AQ and some medium sized pair.

You took so long to call on the flop, maybe he senses you were trying to peel and Ace/King/Queen there.

Yes we are deep so that kind of pushes me towards folding and finding a better spot. But all signs point to calling here.

[Jihad]

Man I see this turn push as him reading me for what I have and having a boat that thinks I won't fold. Why does anybody see this as a bluff? I just don't see a lot of guys at 50's putting 2 stacks in with a bluff and 1 card to come. People generally suck at hand reading and when they do get a "read" they tend to play to it passively. How far off is my thinking, if it is? FWIW although I let my timer tick down all the way, I was probably never calling.

Also how the [censored] to I get rakeback if I already have an account established? I'm old and retarded and don't have the time to look into it any further than random questions.

[Isura]

Beat him into the pot.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Man I see this turn push as him reading me for what I have and having a boat that thinks I won't fold. Why does anybody see this as a bluff? I just don't see a lot of guys at 50's putting 2 stacks in with a bluff and 1 card to come. People generally suck at hand reading and when they do get a "read" they tend to play to it passively. How far off is my thinking, if it is? FWIW although I let my timer tick down all the way, I was probably never calling.

Also how the [censored] to I get rakeback if I already have an account established? I'm old and retarded and don't have the time to look into it any further than random questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can get your money in almost any way if you have exactly AA. But he probably thinks you can fold KK or worse in this spot. Further, he is not good and can be overplaying some random mid pair here. People make all kinds of dumb moves in big pots. You pretty much have the nuts here, so I'm calling.

[Isura]

And fwiw, that previous hand is NOT significant background. I don't understand why you would put much weight on that hand, it is just set over set in a big pot.

[Jihad]

[ QUOTE ]
And fwiw, that previous hand is NOT significant background. I don't understand why you would put much weight on that hand, it is just set over set in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]I know what you're saying but if he's a typical uncreative 50's guy, he may not have any other "set in a raised pot" play in his bank.